Bush's Iraq War is Already Lost

zcheng:

"I suggest every people have a look at the interview, and think of Bush's irrational noncharlant reaction to attack in the Florida elementary school. "


what the hell do you expect him to do in front of the kids??? get up and run to the car? have the kids in a panic?

Zcheng,

WOW dude..YOu are very susceptible to propaganda..
Is that your communist upbringing, or is this something you learned From Lyndon LaRoach?

You are also good at spreading unverified propaganda..

How long do you get to stay in the US?
Better question, when the heck are you leaving?

Your country fills our country with some decent merchandise, but mostly CRAP merchandise, the Japanese do much better at manufacturing, probably because they use people over the age of 5 huh?

Do you EVER see someone elses point of view, or do you just crank out the
propaganda, like a machine? Never mind, I know the answer..

Ok I'm done with you for now...later, little dictator..

I need coffee, I'm grouchy....TEA NEVER DOES IT....gotta have coffee,

ok, NOW I AM DONE...

Originally posted by funnyfeni
what the hell do you expect him to do in front of the kids???

He did make a poor choice in what to do tho, better to have a room full of children screaming for their mommies than risk furhter attacks, although in this instance there was nothing that could've been done anyway. I also find it ironic that so many people who fault him for staying in the room, where he was trying to project 'strenght' and whatnot, felt that he should;ve returned to the whitehouse and gotten on national tv while the attacks were going on.

I just can believe when somebody puts some info and someone here jumps it it destroying and flaming for a iferent opinion on a subject...as If you life depended on it.....

Just to give you an example of the COVERUPS goverments can make Ill give you an example:

Exactly 24 years ago we had a very large earthquake here in MExico 8.6 to 8.9 ritcher (depending who you ask). The movement was so strong streets opened up lika a hollywood movie and you could not stand up, it was imposible due to the movement, I hold to a tree. It lasted 1.50 minutes and 2 more of aftershoks in the 3 to 4 scale.

The destruction was incredible, after 1 day I volunteered to help, my house was 2 miles away from the national medical center and in front of it was a large building residential area, all in all about 30 buildings collapsed. The Beisball park was 2 block away, and they told me to go there to help, there were a lot of people there helping and a lot of military personale tahat had access to the Inside of the Beisball park, we were outside, there was some confusion and somebody asked 5 persons to help putting CaCo3 to the bodies to prevent diseases or something.
I volunteered and in our way in I cpuld see guys my age coming out crying, Ill never forget that!, when we entered the stadium the sight was overwhelming corpses some complete some mutilated were on the grass covering more that 80% of the field and they were3 or 4 truck full of dead weiting to pickup more people (with the dust on them) and some to unload.
I worked there for like 30 minutes, most of the time with my eyes closed, due to the smell and the horrible things. I made a quick count and saw at least 600 dead in (MY) 30 minutes, afterwrds I went home and was depressed for like 40 days.

The Official death count was never released, but they (the goverment) estimated 450 to 1000 deaths.
The corpes I saw were just one of the "centers" they had and the situation northwards of the city was even worse (20 to 22 stories collapsing).
The real count is estimated between 9000 and 13 000 deaths.
The bodies of the unacounted for (complete families) were put in mass graves .....where? who knows!
The majority of the buildings that collapsed (90%) were made by goverment contractors with bad materials and bad construction number of people jailed for that = ZERO NADA.

The goverment made a coverup of the whole thing, they even removed the debris in record time (a la twin towers) and rebuilt there another hospital complex....

So when someone says, no thats is not posible, who benefits from witholding information, who wins with tragedy, what is to gain from having such a dirty secret going, and also : I CANT BELIEVE THEY CAN DO SOMETHING SO BAD. ITS A SECRET THAEY CANT BE HIDING, TOO MUCH PEOLPLE KNOW, I always remember that stadium and those crying guys....

Propaganda...my a$$

Originally posted by spacedoubt
Ok I'm done with you for now...later, little dictator..

I need coffee, I'm grouchy....TEA NEVER DOES IT....gotta have coffee,

ok, NOW I AM DONE...

I feel no need to reply to your silly questions. Bye for good.

Originally posted by kix
I just can believe when somebody puts some info and someone here jumps it it destroying and flaming for a iferent opinion on a subject...as If you life depended on it.....

[edit: don't know why the portion i typed did not make it originally...]


I just can't beleive when somebody beleives something merely because someone said it. Everything you see on tv isn't real. everything you read isn't correct.

[edit on 22-9-2004 by Nygdan]

[edit on 23-9-2004 by Nygdan]

Originally posted by kix

The destruction was incredible, after 1 day I volunteered to help, my house was 2 miles away from the national medical center and in front of it was a large building residential area, all in all about 30 buildings collapsed. The Beisball park was 2 block away, and they told me to go there to help, there were a lot of people there helping and a lot of military personale tahat had access to the Inside of the Beisball park, we were outside, there was some confusion and somebody asked 5 persons to help putting CaCo3 to the bodies to prevent diseases or something.
I volunteered and in our way in I cpuld see guys my age coming out crying, Ill never forget that!, when we entered the stadium the sight was overwhelming corpses some complete some mutilated were on the grass covering more that 80% of the field and they were3 or 4 truck full of dead weiting to pickup more people (with the dust on them) and some to unload.
I worked there for like 30 minutes, most of the time with my eyes closed, due to the smell and the horrible things. I made a quick count and saw at least 600 dead in (MY) 30 minutes, afterwrds I went home and was depressed for like 40 days.

Thank you so much, kix for sharing the factual account of events that history has buried.

I wonder whether the actual loss of US troops in Iraq will ever come to light of public knowledge. With no demand for truth from the public, government can hide whatever information they like. This is the freedom and democrazy so cherished by members in ATS. People only care the symbol not the essense.

Wed Sep 22, 4:08 AM ET


BAGHDAD, Iraq - A U.S. Black Hawk helicopter crashed shortly after take off in southern Iraq (news - web sites), wounding three crew members, the military said Wednesday.


It was not immediately clear why the aircraft went down near the city of Nasiriyah late Tuesday, a spokesman for coalition forces in Baghdad said.


He said the aircraft was "severely damaged" and that an investigation was underway.
story.news.yahoo.com.../ap/20040922/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_helicopter_crash&cid=540&ncid=1473

Amazing those soldiers are all Terminators.


[edit on 22-9-2004 by zcheng]

The ONE lesson that should be learned in Vietnam, is the extreme difficulty in fighting/working against the indigenous population.
We went in BLIND into Iraq. The MORONS in charge of this [Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush] expected 'rose petal strewn streets and cheers and welcomes'. These guys in the Whitehouse are 'The Gang that couldn't Shoot Straight'.
We didn't find the 'Mythical' WMDs and had no idea about the political context on the ground.
The Liars in the Whitehouse were getting their info from a Liar like Chalabi, and swimming in a sea of lies.

Truth & Respect for indigenous populations would have served this nation far better. The amazing thing is most Americans still have no respect for the Iraqi people as people.

In a democracy, if the people are stupid the government is invariably stupid too.

You don't have to play *ss kiss with anyone, just give them credit for the hardships they have lived and existed under.
.

Right-wing gasbag 'journalist' Robert Novak wrote a column last week indicating that the invading troops will be pulled out by next year. Notwithstanding all of the election year rhetoric, the hand-writing is on the wall. The invasion of a sovreign country will come to an end - a complete and utter failure.
--------
I concur completely. "Failure is All over the WALL!"

Originally posted by zcheng
Right-wing gasbag 'journalist' Robert Novak

What does that secret information leaking idiot know anyway?

Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by zcheng
Right-wing gasbag 'journalist' Robert Novak

What does that secret information leaking idiot know anyway?

He has channel to top most officials. Remember Novak revealed the Ambassador wife as a CIA Agent. He do have credibile info source, sometimes at least.

Even the cause in Afganisthan is lost the Puppets put by Bush over there (Presdent and Vicepresident have had 3 attemps on their life, it a mater of time...either they are killed or q=they live in a bunker JUST LIKE SADDAM...

Ironic dont you think?

its time to get out.

Either wipe out the insurgents using saturation tactics, or just leave.

Only two options left.

Originally posted by IMMORTAL
I've read that the Oval Office has been sold to Tel Aviv on 9/11. So, unless Tel Aviv says otherwise, American Forces will remain in Iraq.

Not says otherwise but manipulates otherwise. Richard Perle will be in the loop for that.

What's done is done. Baghdad will become a wealthy area again where nations flow. History repeats itself. Rome had their barbarians we now have ours. It just means the U.S. will be getting action for a long time to come - both ways.

McSheister:

Iraq needs a democracy, they need to wake up and join the 21st century since they haven't been able top do so under Saddam.

And since when did this become the job of the United States? Where was all this universal democratic goodwill for the Haitians when their democratically elected president was being forcibly ousted? Sudan? What makes the US so capable of transplanting democracy when your own is such a mess? The first years leading up to and after your democracy were a terrible time.

Does it matter if Iraqis might not want democracy? Are they allowed to elect a secular Islamic government in January if that is their wish? Can they elect a Shia cleric?

And BTW, Iraq poses quite a threat, not just to Isreal, but to the rest of the middle east as well. They threaten to de-stabilize the enitre region and the only way we can stop that is to engage and defeat them on their own soil.

And yet none of their neighbors are in the "Coalition of the Willing". None of their neighbors were afraid of them because they knew that the Iraqi Army had been decimated and declawed. The only people who said they were a threat to the region was the Bush and Sharon Administration(s).

Iraq will no longer be a threat to its neighbors (can someone say Kuwait?) will not aid and abet terrorists which they have been doing for a long long time (the senior Al-Queda officials behind the 9/11 attacks met in Iraq right before the attack) and they will be able to sell the world their oil and get their economy up and running which is the ultimate goal.

Well, where I come from, we'd call you a liar. The senior Al Qaeda officials behind 9-11 met in Iraq right before the attack? Funny how that never made it into the 9-11 Commission's Report, huh? Funny how nobody has ever been able to substantiate a solid link between Al Qaeda and Saddam and yet you speak this total falsehood, this untruth, as if it's fact.

Back it up.

Grady:

Bush never claimed in his rationale that we needed to invade Iraq because he had WMDs, even though he and the rest of the world believed that to be so and were no less vocal about it than Bush was

WHAT!?!? Have you not been following the last few years? WMD WMD WMD WMD was the rationale, that's all they talked about. Anthrax, botulinum, sarin, chemical-spraying planes, etc. Did you not see Colin Powell's presentation to the UN about Saddam's alleged WMDs? The same meeting that preceded the vote that the US lost in the UN to invade Iraq?

And I have lived fifty-five years. And I have fallen for some of this BS before, myself. And, on and on and on.

Well then I find it hard to believe you're falling for Bush's BS since it's so blatant. To Bush, words speak louder than actions. Take two State of the Union addresses, or take things his own people, Cheney, Powell, Rumsfeld and Rice themselves said, all day every day on US network TV. Look at how SURE they were that Saddam had WMDs. Then suddenly it became WMD "programs". Then nothing, because even those weren't found. So what are you holding onto?

The simiarlity is that there are good men there dying for the cause of liberty of those whom they have never met, while some at home can only ridicule, criticize, and pontificate.

As opposed to you, who bravely follows the Fuhrer and jackboot salutes his inane rhetoric and tired cliches? I ridicule ignorance and stupidity, I don't ridicule people who are putting their lives on the line for their country, EVEN IF their country's administration is totally piking them and having them die needlessly.

It makes me mad for them, because they have to live and die through it, whether or not they agree with it. And let me tell you, other than people who ENJOY death and chaos, soldiers do NOT enjoy combat. Or can you tell me different?

They're dying for the cause of liberty? Iraqi liberty? Aren't they being killed BY Iraqis? Is Mrs. Smith in Alabama happy that she'll never see her son again because she knows it is going to make Iraq a more "free" country? Does she figure that the roadside bomb that burned him to death in his Humvee on the outskirts of Najaf was just a small price to pay in the War on Terror? Are you in fact on crack?

They're dying for nothing, and they deserve better. They deserve to be back with their families and their friends and out of the hornet's nest that their Commander threw them into, undermanned, underplanned and undertrained.

And their Commander deserves to be judged by the International Criminal Court.

And I am exceedingly bright and documentably so, but of course, I'm not as young and inexperienced as you so, I wouldn't know anything.

Oh my yes, just like you said, you are in fact exceedingly bright. There are, what--- two people in this entire thread who have agreed with you. Most of them appear to be of spelling age, too. Kudos.


jako

Bring Em All Home, It's A Travesty

Originally posted by zcheng
He has channel to top most officials. Remember Novak revealed the Ambassador wife as a CIA Agent. He do have credibile info source, sometimes at least.

Yes, I understand that, hence my allusion to it at the top. He's a scumbag, and I was just noting that. As for troops pulling out next year, I'll just have to list that under 'highly doubtful', since both candidates have stated that they aren't interested in that.

Originally posted by rustiswordz
Either wipe out the insurgents using saturation tactics, or just leave.

An absolutely ludicrous proposition on both counts. 'Saturation tactics' don't work against insurgents/partisans/guerillas, and thats been demonstrated time and time again in history.

Leave? If the US leaves, and the militants take over, how long before the US returns? What is the sense in leaving? The US would have to re-invade in a matter of years.

jakomo
And since when did this become the job of the United States?

Early afternoon on 911.

The first years leading up to and after your democracy were a terrible time.

So?

Does it matter if Iraqis might not want democracy?

Everyone wants democracy. Democracy is self rule. If the iraqis don't want democracy, then that would mean that they want to be ruled, to have a government forced on them. Ok, so the US is forcing a democracy on them. If they don't want democracy then its contradictory to ask what they want anyway.

Is Mrs. Smith in Alabama happy that she'll never see her son again

Mrs. Smith's son shouldn't've joined the army if he didn't want to be a soldier.

You have quoted Bush here often but you're not really quoting Bush you're quoting his staff you're quoting his speech editor. He is merely a puppet speaking for those who make the real decisions - the administration, cheney, rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, NSA and lets not forget about the neo think tanks where all the points for decisions come from.

I posted a thread on here called the New American Century describing how the war in Iraq actually started. However the mods of this forum decided to delete that information so you could not read it. The writing was not derogatory and used much less language found on this thread - why did someone delete it? Those who run this forum are either Bush lovers or in love with Wolfowitz is all I can imagine.

It amazes me that an individual like Grady at your age could act so knowledgeable and yet have very little knowledge. Do you think being a writer and having an opinion makes you correct in your assessment? Or that you can quote from sources that were propagated and written for someone else to speak to appease an audience? What did you expect the writer to say, "We are americans lets kill the muslims!"

We attacked a soverign nation and this has been called illegal by the United Nations according to the international laws we endorse as a nation -overwhelmingly. What we did is illegal and if another country did it we would sanction them along with the UN. Do you actually beieve that the UN was going to do nothing about the situation in Iraq? Do you actually think that there are no intelligent men besides yourself and the Bush administration on the planet capable enough to assess the real situation as it develops?

It sickens me that men like yourself can even call yourself a patriot. How dare you call yourself a patriot and wrap your arms around the doctrines that have created a million man terrorist nation. You believe you can bomb civilians as an engagement campaign based on statements and erroneous documents and not an actual attack by that government? I have to ask are you that dumb? Do you study the laws wherewith the United States have written and signed with the UN - it seems Americans don't give a rats ass about this - why because were too busy working 9 - 5 and really don't understand what's going on in the world let alone politics and international law. We just like to make an opinion on what it means to be an American to support each president know matter what kind of F### ups he does - that doesn't matter just as long as I FEEL he is a good guy. International law - who cares we cam make and break the rules were America screw the little guy. We can bomb the crap out of anyone we want and who is gonna tell us were wrong? How can you be so naive?

You seem educated why don't you study Islam for awhile and guerilla tactics for a couple years then you'll come away with the same conclusions -the bush administration not only encourages terrorism but has created an entire nation of it. Why? Because they decided to follow a civilian guideline for how this country should operate in war thats why!

You think because we are on the offensive that were eliminating terrorism? You dumb ass don't you know the top CT operators warned the presidential staff not to invade Iraq. Why because the answer is what we have now dummy - you cannot contain a million man militia - it will grow it will receive funding and recruits it's a damn shame that the monkeys in the white house don't even follow simple guerilla tactics that we teach to every damn nation!

The top general from the military Anthony Zinni who everyone respected and sought advice from, including Bush, condemns Iraq as a disaster. The Bush administration chose a path based on civilian theories and those who were not on the neo band wagon fell by the way side. Just absolutely amazing how the white house operates. The think tank has got to be one of the dirtiest secrets in American history.

It's men like you the white house counts on to stand up and clap and back them up on getting more Americans killed when they know it's a F### up. Hey once the decision is made pal we gotta follow through smiling for the camera and playing the part. You say it effects the troops. Hey dumb ass they are the ones who have to drive the trucks over russian mines! I guarantee you Americans are smart people. They don't need your propaganda. "It hurts the troops," give me a F### break. What hurts the troops is bullets. Vietnam rally's compared to whats going on rigght now is a joke - don't tell me it effects the troops, bullets effect the troops and they can give a rats ass what anyone thinks about what theyr're doing. Thye have their OWN opinions and certainly don't need your friggin morale to tell them whats right or wrong.

The war is illegal whats done is done. You want action go get it if not don't join the military. The presidential administration will always paint a rosy picture of freedom and patriotism to back up what were doing just or unjust moron.

Originally posted by zcheng

Originally posted by spacedoubt
Ok I'm done with you for now...later, little dictator..

I need coffee, I'm grouchy....TEA NEVER DOES IT....gotta have coffee,

ok, NOW I AM DONE...

I feel no need to reply to your silly questions. Bye for good.

Bye Bye now

Now who is hiding from the truth?