Bush's Iraq War is Already Lost

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Check out these 'traitors' and their 'traitorous' comments Grady.....

Retired Gen. Joseph Hoare, the former Marine commandant and
head of the U.S. Central Command, told me: "The idea that this is
going to go the way these guys planned is ludicrous. There are no
good options. We're conducting a campaign as though it were
being conducted in Iowa, no sense of the realities on the ground.
It's so unrealistic for anyone who knows that part of the world.
The priorities are just all wrong."

Sidney Blumenthal is a former senior adviser to President Clinton. I don't know who Gen. Hoare is, but I can tell you this, he was never Commandant of the Marine Corps.

www.usmcpress.com...

So, Blumenthal, a partisan of the highest degree, goes out and finds five individuals who are not involve in the war effort, at all, erroneously names one a former Commandant of the Marine Corps, gets them to give their personal opinions about the war and publishes his article in "The Guardian," a publication of questionable repute. So, what?

This one article has been posted one million times on the internet, as though it is gospel. It isn't.

www.google.com...

Are these men traitors? In my opinion, when the country is at war and you declare the war lost before it is over, you are aiding and abetting the enemy. Bear in mind that both Gens. Hoare and Odom are retired and can speak as they please and they are likely to be as partisan as Wesley Clark. I am displeased with the actions of those Marine's who cannot put aside partisan politics long enough to prosecute a war.

The war in Iraq is not lost, but it may be if we all begin to beleive as these men would have us believe.

Me, I'm a believer in my nation. If you are an American, you should start believing, too, or you will be singing Allah's praises five times a day.



[edit on 04/9/18 by GradyPhilpott]

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

Originally posted by zcheng

security analysis
by eurohippie Guest on 17.09.2004 [12:16 ]

On the war itself, he was very clear: it's lost. The only thing to do is set a date for the troops to leave, and leave by that date, elections or no elections. Anything other than declaring the intention to leave will only make matters worse, he said. Also he said that the implications of defeat are "far graver than Vietnam".

This is total nonsense. You are an avowed communist and an enemy of the US, albeit a friend of Hanoi John Kerry. Mao, the mass murderer, is your hero.

Consider the following concerning Mao Tse Tong (Zedong):

You need to ask the Chinese people by visiting China. Just because Bush said Iraq has WMD, you will believe him. Most Chinese people are thankful for what Mao did for China, though we know the many huge mistakes he made.

[edit on 18-9-2004 by zcheng]

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
Sidney Blumenthal is a former senior adviser to President Clinton.

- Having seen him on TV I can only conclude that if you think him a 'leftist' you must be further to the right than (jeeez who?) Gengis Khan?

and publishes his article in "The Guardian," a publication of questionable repute.

- Just because the Guardian is not part of the Murdock stable of degenerate 'newspapers' (term used advisedly) is hardly grounds to call it of questionable repute. In fact the Guardian has an excellent reputation in the UK (except among right-wing ultras).

This one article has been posted one million times on the internet, as though it is gospel. It isn't.

- I'm not saying it is.

I posted it because it adds to the growing volume of comment and informed opinion that - contrary to what the 'mainstream' media has been telling us for so long - believes the Iraqi war now utterly unwinnable.

My bet is that this is now so apparant that even the mainstream will have to start acknowledging it....whether that happens before the nov poll remains to be seen.

Even the DOD'd latest assessment concludes that now is about as good as things are likely to get with great probability indicating that they will get a lot worse.

Still, if you prefer to believe more BS about this BS war that's up to you.

Are these men traitors? In my opinion, when the country is at war and you declare the war lost before it is over, you are aiding and abetting the enemy.

- The point is there is no actual 'enemy' in the conventional sense. This isn't like trying to fight Hitler and WW2.

The 'conventional' war was 'won'....not that it has done the slightest good long term. The ME is still a basket case....just an much much more dangerous one.

[Bear in mind that both Gens. Hoare and Odom are retired and can speak as they please and they are likely to be as partisan as Wesley Clark.

- Well that's an interesting way of putting it.

Usually most folks take the views of retired officers in their position as indicating that they are free to tell it as it is and not encoumbered with having to tow a 'party line'. Why do you prefer to believe they must be acting in a purely partisan way? Just cos they see it different to you?

I am displeased with the actions of those Marine's who cannot put aside partisan politics long enough to prosecute a war.

- I think anyone willing to stand up and tell the truth about the situation is to be applauded. This is IMO a BS war being fought for - deliberately - confused BS reasons and anything those men have to say that shortens the BS war is to be commended.

The war in Iraq is not lost, but it may be if we all begin to beleive as these men would have us believe.

- You are of course entitled to your view.

I think you are wrong. I think the war was lost before it started because it had objectives it could not possibly achieve (ie making Iraq a suitable - enormous - US base of operations and a pacified source and transit area for oil).

Me, I'm a believe in my nation.

- Even when they lie to you?

By the way the Bush government (nor any government) is not your 'nation'.

If you are an American, you should start believing, too, or you will be singing Allah's praises five times a day.

- I'm not. I'm British, Irish and a European (and proud of it). I have a middle-ranking friend posted out there so I get a little insight into the truth of what is really going on.

.....and I don't believe the 'Muslims will take over if 'we' don't fight them ' BS either. Muslims are 2.5% of the UK population and around 5% of Europe's population (and even that figure is boosted by those muslims mainly in eastern Europe). Wise up.



[edit on 04/9/18 by GradyPhilpott]

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
You might have been against the war from the get go, but you were not responsible for the well-being of a nation. The peanut gallery is much easier to occupy than the postion of command.

If I WERE responsible for the well-being of this nation, it would be alot more well than it is today. People like you should ONLY be permitted to occupy the peanut gallery, I shudder to think what kind of monster you may have been during your years in service, you seem to have trouble equating the "enemy" with humanity, I picture you with an ear necklace.
I picture you were like Col. Kurtz from Apocalypse Now, only you were not smart enough to see the corruption of the government like he was, so you remain obedient to this day.

Before you denigrate Bush's service, you should remember that only about 1.3 million of us actually set foot in Vietnam. Many more millions served in far less dangerous situations. Are you really in a position to judge Bush's service? What is the nature and character of your own service?

Yes I am in full position to judge his service, I am an American. And out of those who set foot in Vietnam, only a few still trust the government today. The intelligent ones realized they were sent to die for the government's agenda, not to defend our nation, just like today's war. As for my service, I attempted to enlist in the Coast Guard when I was younger (during the Clinton years), but had a medical history of asthma when I was a child. That was a blessing because now I'm a bit older and no longer have asthma, but would never sign myself over to this corrupt government. If my country is ever invaded and our freedom truly is threatened, I will throw everything in my arsenal at the invaders, but right now the only threat to our freedom is Bush and his neo-con puppeteers.

Originally posted by zcheng
You need to ask the Chinese people by visiting China. Just because Bush said Iraq has WMD, you will believe him. Most Chinese people are thankful for what Mao did for China, though we know the many huge mistakes he made.

Forty million lives is a huge mistake. The people of China had dare not say what they think of Mao or they will become a statistic, as well.

[edit on 04/9/18 by GradyPhilpott]

Originally posted by 27jd
If my country is ever invaded and our freedom truly is threatened, I will throw everything in my arsenal at the invaders, but right now the only threat to our freedom is Bush and his neo-con puppeteers.

All cowards tell the same story--if only, I would. Your country has been invaded.

You've seen too many war movies. I'm nothing like you describe. My life is devoted to the service of others. And I am exceedingly bright and documentably so, but of course, I'm not as young and inexperienced as you so, I wouldn't know anything.

[edit on 04/9/18 by GradyPhilpott]

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
You've seen too many war movies. I'm nothing like you describe. My life is devoted to the service of others.

Grady why is it that no matter what the topic, it could be the benifits of banana splits, when you come on the scene, it's all about you?

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
You've seen too many war movies. I'm nothing like you describe. My life is devoted to the service of others.

Grady why is it that no matter what the topic, it could be the benifits of banana splits, when you come on the scene, it's all about you?

It's not about me until those who disagree with me make it about me. I state my case and I am willing to back it up and I stand by my convictions. History is full of the persecuted with similar values. I believe that you will find that my posts are about the issues not my fellow posters, unless I feel it necessary to respond to their attacks.

Since last night, the personal attacks on me have been so numerous that I have lost count. Many posters do not even attempt to address the issue and immediately launch into a personal attack.

I believe that I comport myself with dignity and consistency. You could have asked this same question of me privately, instead of again placing the spotlight on me, rather than the issue.

Can you think of some historical figures who have been assailed by the masses for their unpopular views?

Thank you for your concern.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
All cowards tell the same story--if only, I would. Your country has been invaded.

You've seen too many war movies. I'm nothing like you describe. My life is devoted to the service of others. And I am exceedingly bright and documentably so, but of course, I'm not as young and inexperienced as you so, I wouldn't know anything.

[edit on 04/9/18 by GradyPhilpott]

That's hillarious old man, you know NOTHING about me to call me a coward, and I guarantee you wouldn't if you knew me. But if it makes you feel better have at it, it only highlights your true ignorance, and shows you are not as "bright" as you fancy yourself to be. And I only draw that conclusion about you based on your own posts, was it not you who said you wanted to put a round through the heads of punk kids who listen to their music too loud in traffic? And you call yourself intelligent? Of course you said you never acted on that impulse, probably because you know the rest of your life would be spent behind bars, but there's alot more room to act on those "impulses" in a war setting, that's were I get my impression of you, not war movies. And age has nothing to do with who a person is, Hitler was an old man too.

Originally posted by 27jd

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
All cowards tell the same story--if only, I would. Your country has been invaded.
[edit on 04/9/18 by GradyPhilpott]

That's hillarious old man,

you know NOTHING about me to call me a coward

firstly no one has here the right to call anyone else a coward
I don't want to be arrogant but that's how it is according to the regulations written by SimonGray

Me, I'm a believer in my nation. If you are an American, you should start believing, too, or you will be singing Allah's praises five times a day.

OMG!

I cant believe I just read that. You are seriously blind. You dont make yourself out to be a rational person by claiming those who oppose Bush (a man not a nation) traitors and un-american.

Anyway, I have read every post on this thread and i Have to say.. This is probably the best thread i have read.

According to Grady, only those who have served in war are REAL Americans, yet his lips are stuck to the behind of a President who dodged war with his family connections, if one of us did that, he would call us cowards for sure. Another answer to your question, Grady, about my service to this country's military is FINANCING, I have been in the workforce for 10 years now, and I, like many other Americans on ATS whom you have claimed have no right to question what this government does, pay TAXES, we finance the army that is being misused grossly by this corrupt, unelected President. As financial backers we have every right to question the fact that we are paying to send our brothers and sisters, sons and daughters, to die for the agenda of the most corrupt administration the USA has ever seen. We have EVERY RIGHT to question it.

[edit on 18-9-2004 by 27jd]

I have a question.
Why is it that Bush does not attack IRAN or north korea if he fears that they will supply WMD to terrorists ??That should be his biggest concern!

Probably(mere speculation) it is because they posses nuclear weapons and he dosn't posses the conviction and the B@@ls to back up his melodramatic drivle after 9/11.
He completly lost his vocabulary(granted- it was very limited to start off) and said something in the lines of -wanted dead or alive.., smoke'm out of their holes.., blah..blah...Does the worlds most powerfull man speak like that after a crisis!! Pathetic!!

maybe he can only attack countries which have no sizeable threat and are on the brink of poverty so he can be sure of victory. What a coward!!
(Ex: IRAQ[due to sanctions they were practically begging(call upon the concept of Food for Oil)],Afghannistan[It's like starshiptroopers Vs cavemen and still he couldn't catch Osama!]Pathetic yet again!!)
and can satisfy his ego and divert people from issues like outsourcing that are making americans jobless and dwindle the economy further .

Agreed that saddam was hideous and was better removed .why did he not just encourage a coup with a neutral leader to remove saddam??

Even though Iran has repeatedly featured in connection with many terrorists he still allows them to continue building a nuke.What maddness is this??
How many more moslem countries does he want with nukes??First it was PAkistan now Iran what next Syria perhaps!even the Saudis!!Bush has to definitely get his B@@lls back and stop it NOW!!! or before long some suicidal terrorist is going to park a car with a thermo nuke in front of the white house and then their will be no time to contemplate what should have been done while he turns to radioactive dust!!

Another reason why we have the right to question it is... Because, Hey we live here!

Born and raised in America.

Why is it that Bush does not attack IRAN or north korea if he fears that they will supply WMD to terrorists ??That should be his biggest concern!

i've wondered this since the beginning.

Maybe its becuase a war with them would probably be tougher. Maybe Bush and his admin thought Iraq would be an easier war as compared to someone who we actually know possesses real WMDs

Originally posted by Thatoneguy
i've wondered this since the beginning.

Maybe its becuase a war with them would probably be tougher. Maybe Bush and his admin thought Iraq would be an easier war as compared to someone who we actually know possesses real WMDs

That's absolutley the reason, Bush is a bully, bullies don't pick fights with those who can hurt them, they pick on those who cannot (the way things are looking in Iraq nowadays, it seems that may have been a miscalculation). Bush is the TRUE coward in my opinion, personally I don't want there to be any wars, but if there is a true threat to us, it is (and was) not Iraq. The only threats coming out of Iraq now are the ones we have created.

[edit on 18-9-2004 by 27jd]

That's absolutley the reason, Bush is a bully, bullies don't pick fights with those who can hurt them, they pick on those who cannot

Good observation 27jd. Iraq had no allies so the chances of the war dragging more counties in was virtually nil.

If he attacks Iran, he risks treading on the toes of the Russians and with North Korea, he risks upsetting the Chinese. With America's military stretched so thin at the moment Bush can't afford to upset big players like these. He would get his butt kicked. At the moment he just can't afford to risk it.

One quick question:

What you would prefer?


Spend 400 billion plus on a war to free a country from a maniac.
Spend 400 Billion to Insure EVERY U S citizen?

You know last week the Canadians spent 40 billion on a Health care plan for all Canadians...mmm

Guess is a no brainer right?

What is easier?
Make a pact with Canada and MExico for Oil suply and forget about the incasion and try to make the North American Block the most powerful in the world (economically speaking).
Or try to make the US like the only superpower and hegemony of the world and alienating the rest of the world and ruining the good PR they had?

Kix, I like your idea, we should try to get away from oil completely though, they have other technologies, but the oil companies use their political sway to prevent them from seeing the light of day. But North America should be more united, we could work together and make Mexico more economically stable (not the the US is that stable right now, but it will change if my people wake up), that way people won't have to risk their lives crossing the border to work for practically nothing just to support their families, it would be grand if we could create a unified North and Central America, and if we could get South America on board, we could all help each other out alot more.

Originally posted by Warpspeed
When you start a fight, and have no plan, no objective, and no exit strategy, it is just really dumb.



Sounds like you were right.

The Daily Telegraph reported on Saturday Foreign Secretary Jack Straw sent a letter in March 2002 marked "secret and personal" to Blair, seen by the paper, warning no one had prepared for what could happen afterwards.

"There seems to be a larger hole in this (what would happen afterward) than anything," the daily quoted Straw as saying.

"No one has satisfactorily answered how there can be any certainty that the replacement regime will be any better. Iraq has no history of democracy so no one has this habit or experience."

english.aljazeera.net... 7-80C1-C073129AAE68.htm

This is the bit I liked.
'Unfinished business'

But the Daily Telegraph said British officials believed US President George Bush instigated war because he wanted to complete his father's "unfinished business".

spyke.