Bush's Iraq War is Already Lost

Originally posted by zcheng
You can draw lessons from history. US has forgotten why US lose in Vietnam.

No we haven't. We have taken the lessons learned there and carried them forward to today. Just like we have for every other war we have fought in.

Where did you ever get the idea that we forgot about Vietnam?

Originally posted by IMMORTAL
I've read that the Oval Office has been sold to Tel Aviv on 9/11. So, unless Tel Aviv says otherwise, American Forces will remain in Iraq.

Yo, IMMORTAL....?
Link to such?


seekerof

[edit on 17-9-2004 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by COOL HAND
No we haven't. We have taken the lessons learned there and carried them forward to today. Just like we have for every other war we have fought in.

Where did you ever get the idea that we forgot about Vietnam?

US do not know why it lost in Vietnam War. The defining factor in war is the heart and mind of the People. US lost support of people in South Vietnam, many South Vietnamese joined the attacks on US. I see so many people on this board still think US could have win Vietnam when commiting more troops and resources.

The same is happening in Iraq. US is protecting the grabbed oil interest in Iraq, not protecting the interest of Iraqi people. Although US set aside 18 Billion reconstruction fund, but had spent little. Most jobs are foreigners, not many Iraqis are employed. Iraqi people simply do not see benefit of US occupation, but only killing and destruction everyday.

Originally posted by zcheng
US do not know why it lost in Vietnam War. The defining factor in war is the heart and mind of the People. US lost support of people in South Vietnam, many South Vietnamese joined the attacks on US. I see so many people on this board still think US could have win Vietnam when commiting more troops and resources.

Well, if that is what you think is important in war I am glad that you are not in a position to run a war. You'd loose in about two weeks.

Vietnam would have been winnable, if the war was fought from Vietnam and not Washington DC. Have you ever read up on that war at all?

The same is happening in Iraq. US is protecting the grabbed oil interest in Iraq, not protecting the interest of Iraqi people. Although US set aside 18 Billion reconstruction fund, but had spent little. Most jobs are foreigners, not many Iraqis are employed. Iraqi people simply do not see benefit of US occupation, but only killing and destruction everyday.

The coalition (not just the US) is protecting the oil interests for two reasons
1. Insurgents keep blowing up the infrastructure
2. It is the only export of Iraq that has any hope of generating enough money to make them a self sufficient nation again.

I am curious as to how you can make all of those assumptions without any first hand experience over there? I guess you just blindly follow whatever propaganda suits your argument.

Originally posted by COOL HAND
I am curious as to how you can make all of those assumptions without any first hand experience over there? I guess you just blindly follow whatever propaganda suits your argument.

I am reading news and information from different sources. You think Bush has been to Iraq and got first hand experience over there, before ordering the war?

I think he should go there to get first hand experience. It is never too late. Bring the troops a fake Turkey does not gain any experience. He should go to Sadr City, Fallujah or Najaf and talk to Iraqis.

I see you just blindly defend anything US do.

The US military conventional forces are very good at fighting a conventional war.

The US military conventional forces are not very good at taking care of an insurgency.

Using the US military as an anti-insurgency tool is like using a 12-volt battery as a hammer.

This war was started without the plans of military leadership but the plans of the very people who skipped the Vietnam war - Wolfowitz, Cheney, Rummy, and Bush, though Bush probably has little to no say in what's going on. They had Powell - guess what, the very 'Powell doctrine' that was applied in Bosnia - of using overwhelming force - was ignored. How ironic.

Then we had this guy, Army Chief of Staff type, by the name of Shinseki. Well he said we need about 350,000 guys minimum to establish control of the country. Bye-Bye Shinseki, you didn't tout the party line so off to a sunset tour then retirement. Next!

Finally we get the war underway. US Air Power and strength of conventional forces so strong, so advanced over the pathetic remains of the devastated Iraqi army + 10 years of sanctions that we basically drove to Baghdad. After a little propaganda stunt in Victory Square tearing down Saddam and using flown-in 'civilians' to beat on the statue, land the President on the Aircraft Carrier Lincoln and declared Mission Accomplished. Woot!

Now the fun part begins. Iraqi reconstruction goes nowhere because hey, why pour money into Iraq when we are sucking out all this precious, precious crude for basically nothing? Mission Accomplished + 310 days later the broke, pissed-off Iraqis grab four 'operators' driving into their town to assasinate some officials who don't like the idea that Iraq is now supporting Israel, burn them and hang them from a bridge. White House sends US Marines into Fallujah to retaliate, then tells Marines to stop, then to start. Then to stop... can't... bear... TV... pressure. Instead of US Marines being unleashed to do what they do best, the Marines pull out and in drives the 'Fallujah Brigade' of local 'pro-Coalition Iraqis' to 'establish control.' Uh-huh. They flip the Marines off and drive around with old Iraqi flags saying how they kicked the Marines ass.

Suddenly the entire country sees this on TV and says "# the US." Mission Accomplished +505 days, insurgents now blowing up pipeline pumping stations on a DAILY basis, attacks on US troops up to 100 times a day from 25 a year ago. 9 billion dollars in Iraqi oil missing. Abu Ghraib has been fully exposed. Killing of Iraqi civilians while trying to get those insurgents creates more insurgents. Palestinian journalist annihilated on LIVE Arab TV by US Apache. Citizens in religious fervor, claiming sweet scents coming from youths who are desperate to become martyrs, insurgence growing in complexity, US is now CONFINED to approximately 3% of the territory of Iraq, where they are being shelled on a daily basis. Cannot leave base without convoy and high speed ass hauling to next base. Difference between insurgents and civilians INDISTINGUISHABLE. Everyone working for Coalition government being hunted like freaking squirrels. The country is essentially in a Civil War. Funds pouring out of reconstruction and into security, which is not improving whatsoever. Iraqi youth now have a choice, get in line for a police job where you're likely to be blown away, or join the insurgency and force the US out...

US is looking like the loser to your average Iraqi right now, and they are going to go with the winning side.

WHAT HAPPENED?

We didn't fail to obliterate the Iraqi army or its Air Force.

We failed to do a MAJOR thing.

We failed to convince Iraqis that the US was going to make them safe, secure, and free.

We failed to win the hearts and minds, which is not important while blowing up enemy troops in combat, but is essential in establishing rule in a country.

Our only alternative to winning the hearts and minds is committing mass slaughter until no one is left to resist. Will the US do this? We ARE the good guys, right?

See how it's important to convince civilians to work with you, not go against you? This is something we should have learned from Vietnam. Why was it repeated?

Because the guys who skipped the Vietnam War are now running our country.

"This will be another Vietnam for America." -- Iraqi Deputy Tariq Aziz.

"How, there are no jungles in Iraq." -- US Reporter.

"We will turn our cities into jungles."

"They will welcome us as liberators." -- Dick Cheney.

Well, I think they didn't welcome us exactly as liberators, but they gave us a chance. We blew it. Thanks Dick, I see those 5 draft deferments you got to stay out of 'Nam really helped your military abilities.

Originally posted by Seekerof
Yo, IMMORTAL....?
Link to such?
seekerof[edit on 17-9-2004 by Seekerof]

Message from Bush's Boss: A special thanks to all those countries that have sent troops to Iraq. Our financial windfall and the expansion of our national borders could not have been accomplished without you. Bear in mind that for those soldiers who do not return from battle, their deaths were not in vain. They will have perished for the greater glory of Israel...and it continues-->I think that this is just made up, but you get the picture.

Anyway, to read further, go here.

Originally posted by taibunsuu
The US military conventional forces are very good at fighting a conventional war.

The US military conventional forces are not very good at taking care of an insurgency.

taibunsuu, thanks for the great post. I wish more US people will read it.

Originally posted by McSheister

Explain to me in your own words why we are in Iraq, since you obviously think it is to steal the poor innocent Iraqi's oil even though Iraqi oil accounts for only 6% of total US oil imports. If we wanted their oil, than we could have done it legitametly and lifted the economic trade sanctions Clinton put on them back in the 90's. Or will you blame Haliburton for "stealing" it when in fact they are over their risking their own lives to rebuild Iraqi oil refineries so that they can resume selling their primary export to the world market to earn some profit, or is that a bad thing?

I'll tell you right now that you are asking the wrong person why we are in Iraq. I have already stated in this post that I can't think of a single reason.

Interesting all the words you put in my mouth. Did I even mention Halliburton in my post? Don't get me started. Why don't you look at the facts I presented and ask yourself why we're in Iraq. Then you can tell me, because I still don't know.

When we went to war, the president actually said he wasn't interested in rebuilding countries, only in the security of the United States. So, did we go in to liberate the Iraqi people? It's convenient for the Bush Administration when the people forget all the things that they said to us leading up to war. Do I think we should put our head in the sand? No? Is this the right way to fight this or any war? Absolutely not.

Then you tipped your hand, by saying this:

Iraq needs a democracy, they need to wake up and join the 21st century since they haven't been able top do so under Saddam. And BTW, Iraq poses quite a threat, not just to Isreal, but to the rest of the middle east as well. They threaten to de-stabilize the enitre region and the only way we can stop that is to engage and defeat them on their own soil.

So what you're saying is that our kids are dying to protect Israel. That's a great way to protect the United States.

Who actually destabilized the entire region? You're making my argument for me.

You may say that by doing so the terrorists will start to hate the US, TOO LATE! They already do and will continue to do so even if we hadn't gone into Afghanistan or Iraq at all. As for the civilians, whether or not they like it now once things are up and running again they WILL be happy.

When this happens, I'm sure you and I will be great friends. Until then...

(the senior Al-Queda officials behind the 9/11 attacks met in Iraq right before the attack)

Are you an intelligence operative? Did you get this from Rush, O'Reilly, or the State Department? Oh wait, the Bush State Department, the 9/11 commission, and even Georgie himself all have said PUBLICLY that there is NO evidence at ALL that Saddam Hussein had ANYTHING to do with 9/11. This is the BIG LIE, and if you beleive it there is no hope for you.

Hopefully Iran will be next on Bush's agenda.

And hopefully you will support your country by going over there or sending over your kids to fight.

Originally posted by McSheister

Explain to me in your own words why we are in Iraq, since you obviously think it is to steal the poor innocent Iraqi's oil even though Iraqi oil accounts for only 6% of total US oil imports. If we wanted their oil, than we could have done it legitametly and lifted the economic trade sanctions Clinton put on them back in the 90's. Or will you blame Haliburton for "stealing" it when in fact they are over their risking their own lives to rebuild Iraqi oil refineries so that they can resume selling their primary export to the world market to earn some profit, or is that a bad thing?

I'll tell you right now that you are asking the wrong person why we are in Iraq. I have already stated in this post that I can't think of a single reason.

Interesting all the words you put in my mouth. Did I even mention Halliburton in my post? Don't get me started. Why don't you look at the facts I presented and ask yourself why we're in Iraq. Then you can tell me, because I still don't know.

When we went to war, the president actually said he wasn't interested in rebuilding countries, only in the security of the United States. So, did we go in to liberate the Iraqi people? It's convenient for the Bush Administration when the people forget all the things that they said to us leading up to war. Do I think we should put our head in the sand? No? Is this the right way to fight this or any war? Absolutely not.

Then you tipped your hand, by saying this:

Iraq needs a democracy, they need to wake up and join the 21st century since they haven't been able top do so under Saddam. And BTW, Iraq poses quite a threat, not just to Isreal, but to the rest of the middle east as well. They threaten to de-stabilize the enitre region and the only way we can stop that is to engage and defeat them on their own soil.

So what you're saying is that our kids are dying to protect Israel. That's a great way to protect the United States.

Who actually destabilized the entire region? You're making my argument for me.

You may say that by doing so the terrorists will start to hate the US, TOO LATE! They already do and will continue to do so even if we hadn't gone into Afghanistan or Iraq at all. As for the civilians, whether or not they like it now once things are up and running again they WILL be happy.

When this happens, I'm sure you and I will be great friends. Until then...

(the senior Al-Queda officials behind the 9/11 attacks met in Iraq right before the attack)

Are you an intelligence operative? Did you get this from Rush, O'Reilly, or the State Department? Oh wait, the Bush State Department, the 9/11 commission, and even Georgie himself all have said PUBLICLY that there is NO evidence at ALL that Saddam Hussein had ANYTHING to do with 9/11. This is the BIG LIE, and if you beleive it there is no hope for you.

Hopefully Iran will be next on Bush's agenda.

And hopefully you will support your country by going over there or sending over your kids to fight.

Originally posted by Jamuhn

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

Originally posted by Warpspeed
When you start a fight, and have no plan, no objective, and no exit strategy, it is just really dumb.

Who started this fight?

What has anyone here done in the war effort, except whine. We can excuse zcheng because he is the enemy and can be expected to do no better. It is the Americans here who make me sick. I hope you all have live to enjoy the luxury of living under zcheng's Communist Chinese rule or having your daugthers raped by muslim fanatics.

Ye shall reap what ye sow. Sow nothing, reap nothing. Those who have lived before you have bequeathed to you all the rights you enjoy and the best you can do is critcize and complain.

[edit on 04/9/16 by GradyPhilpott]

What, so if we don't support the Iraqi War then we are "traitors"?

Because I don't believe that Saddam was involved in 9/11?

Because I don't believe that the Iraqi regime supported terrorists?

Because I don't believe in the loads of WMDs that were never found?

Because I don't believe it was any of our business to go over there?

Because I don't believe in an offensive war?

You are telling me that I should believe all this administration has to say, even if it varies day to day, I should "double-think".

Wow, thats amazing.

You know what, I do support the troops, that's why I say........

BRING THEM HOME.

Can't change the past, they've already gone, so why do I complain, because the ends do not justify the means. We are not psychics here who can predict that Saddam was training terrorists to attack America. Maybe you should put your comments in the Predictions forum.

[edit on 16-9-2004 by Jamuhn]

AMEN Jamuhn......AMEN

And to GradyPhilpott I hope you will make 1027 letters to the Dead combatants families, explaining that we the Whiners are guilty for that too.....even the Nam war was lost, and to this day I havent seen hordes of VC invading the U.S. and raping women.....

PEACE

taibunsuu,

See when you post like this you are right and not body can argue with you, in my case I am anti-American anti-Vietnam vets and I should get out of US, perhaps the reason is because I am Spanish but that did not matter to this government when many of my family members has served for this country and die for it too, but guess what, is the truth you got it and I do too and many others in ATS. I laugh at the ignorance of some; remember the ATS motto (denied Ignorance)

For those in here that are as blind as bats and keep living in Vietnam era and still compare Iraq with Japan, Germany and whatever else better come back to the present and smell the rotten corpses of the (liberation war) in Iraq and the reconstruction fiasco.

This administration care so much for the people in Iraq that is allocating money for security of (the oil fields) and not for the innocent civilians that are dying in that country.

Deny ignorance.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
Who started this fight?

What has anyone here done in the war effort, except whine. We can excuse zcheng because he is the enemy and can be expected to do no better. It is the Americans here who make me sick. I hope you all have live to enjoy the luxury of living under zcheng's Communist Chinese rule or having your daugthers raped by muslim fanatics.

Ye shall reap what ye sow. Sow nothing, reap nothing. Those who have lived before you have bequeathed to you all the rights you enjoy and the best you can do is critcize and complain.

[edit on 04/9/16 by GradyPhilpott]

Grady, you're the kind of American that makes me sick, so I guess the feeling is mutual, huh? You blindly stand by your "commander in chief" regardless if he is wrong, which makes you nothing more than a robotic slave. How dare you insult us or call us whiners simply because we don't support the killing of innocent Iraqis OR our soldiers. How dare you hint that we are traitors because we are against needless wars, we pay taxes and are JUST as American as you, probably more so because we don't want to see our young military men and women die for unjust causes, we have EVERY right to oppose this. This war is completely unjustified, no matter how much you parrot baseless neo-con arguments. I know a few vets myself (Desert Storm and Nam) and they dislike Bush and this fiasco as much as I do. As for your apparent fear of zcheng and his communist/muslim invasion, and wishing the rape of peoples daughters, just because they disagree with you, your not only paranoid but WAY out of line. Zcheng has made it clear he wishes for the U.S. and China to have good relations, and I wish the same. It's Americans like you who cannot let go of the past and look to the future of not only America, but the world, that will be the downfall of the USA. Without Earth there would be no America.

[edit on 17-9-2004 by 27jd]

[edit on 17-9-2004 by 27jd]

Originally posted by 27jd

Grady, it's funny but you're the kind of American that makes me sick, so I guess the feeling is mutual, huh? You blindly stand by your "commander in chief" regardless if he is wrong, which makes you nothing more than a robotic slave. [edit on 17-9-2004 by 27jd]

You presume to know enough about me to assume that I blindly support anything. The truth is that I have listened to Bush from the very beginning and I have supported him on the war in Iraq because his reasons have remained resolute and rational. Bush never claimed in his rationale that we needed to invade Iraq because he had WMDs, even though he and the rest of the world believed that to be so and were no less vocal about it than Bush was.

What Bush said, in a nutshell, was that in the "new normal," we can't wait to find out that a nation has weapons of mass destruction when they unleash them on a major US metropolis. Saddam had a history of over a decade of thumbing his nose at the UN and the world community and playing cat and mouse game over his WMDs.

Well, if he was just joshing, he made a big mistake and Iraq and the world will be better for the invasion, if only those who can only criticize and denigrate the effort to make the world safer from the likes of him and bin Laden would get with the program and join in a unified effort.

One of the things I don't get is that when we talk about the Second Amendment, we are alway reminded by the left who claim that citizen uprising in the US could never work against the government because no homegrown insurgency could ever defeat the US mililtary. Then those same people will tell us that the US can never beat any insurgency anywhere.

I am not given to blind allegience nor do I think in black and white. The issues today are too important to keep living in a world of shades of gray. Get on the bandwagon because in these perilous times you are either with us or you are against us.

At least, I stand for something and I don't bite the hand that feeds me.



[edit on 04/9/17 by GradyPhilpott]

Hey, zcheng,

Getting off of the subject of war, because it does get old after a while and that is all you seem to talk about.

You're contrary to the fact that you're inferior.

(edited due to pointless comments)

[edit on 17-9-2004 by asala]

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
You presume to know enough about me to assume that I blindly support anything.

If it isn't blind support, then you and I are getting our info from different sources.

The truth is that I have listened to Bush from the very beginning and I have supported him on the war in Iraq because his reasons have remained resolute and rational.

That would be a matter of opinion I guess, to me his reasons have been baseless and fluid, when one of his reasons is proven incorrect, he moves to another. Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11, why do seemingly intelligent people not comprehend that?

Bush never claimed in his rationale that we needed to invade Iraq because he had WMDs, even though he and the rest of the world believed that to be so and were no less vocal about it than Bush was.

He didn't?

President Bush
"The threat comes from Iraq. It arises directly from the Iraqi regime's own actions -- its history of aggression, and its drive toward an arsenal of terror. Eleven years ago, as a condition for ending the Persian Gulf War, the Iraqi regime was required to destroy its weapons of mass destruction, to cease all development of such weapons, and to stop all support for terrorist groups. The Iraqi regime has violated all of those obligations. It possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons. It has given shelter and support to terrorism, and practices terror against its own people. The entire world has witnessed Iraq's eleven-year history of defiance, deception and bad faith."

www.whitehouse.gov...

Well, if he was just joshing, he made a big mistake and Iraq and the world will be better for the invasion, if only those who can only criticize and denigrate the effort to make the world safer from the likes of him and bin Laden would get with the program and join in a unified effort.

No, we made a big mistake that cost the lives of many many people on both sides. And again, intelligent people do not buy into the crap being fed to us, Bin Laden and Hussein are not the same person. We will not get with the program of lies and death.

One of the things I don't get is that when we talk about the Second Amendment, we are alway reminded by the left who claim that citizen uprising in the US could never work against the government because no homegrown insurgency could ever defeat the US mililtary. Then those same people will tell us that the US can never beat any insurgency anywhere.

Well, how good of a job are they doing? Are they killing more insurgents than they are creating? No. So it will be impossible to beat them, time will prove me correct. And an uprising here would be more easy to put down being as the government pretty much has a bead on the militias here, it's not foreign territory.

I am not given to blind allegience nor do I think in black and white. The issues today are too important to keep living in a world of shades of gray. Get on the bandwagon because in these perilous times you are either with us or you are against us.

Sorry, I will not play your little with us or against us game, save that for your fellow Bush supporters. I am against unjust wars, not America.

At least, I stand for something and I don't bite the hand that feeds me.

I stand for something as well, peace and respect for life. And I will bite the $hit out of the hand that feeds me if it is the hand of evil.





[edit on 17-9-2004 by 27jd]

Originally posted by Intelearthling
Hey, zcheng,

Getting off of the subject of war, because it does get old after a while and that is all you seem to talk about.

You're contrary to the fact that you're inferior.

So, my question to you today is; How does the Chinese get dog and catmeat to look like chicken and shrimp? Now that's where you all got us beat at! I was just wondering.

Why does the world hate America? Because we let people with mentalities like the above run the country. Is there a moderator that can do something about this? I didn't think ATS was a place for racists to peddle their ignorance.

Please. DENY RACISM

Originally posted by oppodeldoc
Why does the world hate America? Because we let people with mentalities like the above run the country. Is there a moderator that can do something about this? I didn't think ATS was a place for racists to peddle their ignorance.

Please. DENY RACISM

I agree fully, that was one of the most ignorant racist posts I have seen for awhile. It's a disgrace to our country.

Intelearthling unless you have something decent to add to this topic I suggest you don�t.

BY GRADY PHILPOT_________QUOTE.....

I am not given to blind allegience nor do I think in black and white. The issues today are too important to keep living in a world of shades of gray. Get on the bandwagon because in these perilous times you are either with us or you are against us.
___________________

SINCE THIS THREAD CAN GO ON FOREVER LET ME ASK A FUNDAMETAL QUESTION......

Imagine that tomorrow the Mexican Army (laughable since we dont have a "rea larmy" but PRETEND) invades the US from the south and the Us in Invaded from the north by the Canadians (DONT LAUGH ! its only PRETENDING).

Ok so we have an invasion and both armies are set to conquer the US and we have a weapon that lets us make a quick victory in Wash, and since most of the US forces are elsewhere we win after 3 days and then WE do the next:

change the flag of the US to green stripes with a red square with 54 maples leafs inside because its nicer (to us)
Put a Mexican president but that was born in US soil and declare he is really an american president.
Declare your constitution Illegal and replace with one voted in our countries, and say WE will control de US economy and the police and armed forces.

(Hint: these things the"colaition" have done already in Iraq)

What would you do????? WHAT WOULD YOU DO??????

2 posibilities arise:

One- you say so cool !!! I always wanted to go to Cancun and Acapulco in the summer and to Alberta and Whistler to sky in winter and these guys are so cool, and they have great ideas for us....

Two- You grab your guns and whatever you got and fight for your contry your land and averything be damned if I have to die to drive those bastards away Ill do it no matter what...!


IF you think 2 applies to you CONGRATULATIONS, you have real patriotism EXACTLY like the Iraquis have AND THEY WILL DIE TO PROTECT THEIE LAND FROM INVASION.

THATS WHY THIS WAR IS LOST....YOU WILL HAVE TO KILL EM ALL and then KILL OTHER MUSLIMS who will protect holly lands.....If you dont believe me Imagine the Flag of ANY country hanging in the capitol hill, If that doesnt revolt you, then you are right, the US will win this invasion...