It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

EWTN (Catholic TV Network) Sues Obama Admin Over Mandate

page: 5
9
<< 2  3  4    6 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Feb, 11 2012 @ 10:03 AM
link   

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Churches provide a very specific service to the people.

Churches aren't just groups of people who pray on Sundays. There is a whole slew of things Churches do - all sorts of outreaches that are required of their faiths. Helping the poor, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting those in prison, taking care of orphans, evangelization, providing medical care to those in need .... and all of it called for by their religions and all to take place under the rules and beliefs of their faith.


But hospitals provide medical care, regardless of their affiliation.

Sure.

They are not under the umbrella of a church, IMO.

Well ...I've given ya' all the info I can to show you otherwise.
Don't know what else I can do to show you.

I have yet to understand how providing birth control to a hospital's employees is prohibiting ANYONE the free exercise of religion.

Catholics religion includes the fact that they are not to endorse or help anyone else engage in what the Catholic Church considers to be 'sinful'. By paying for someone else to 'commit a sin' .. then that Catholic is just as guilty and therefore they are being forced to sin. Example - you paying for a hitman to kill me. The hitman does the killing but in the court of law you are just as guilty of murder. That's as basic of an example as I can give. I don't know what else to say.

I'm good with the accommodation by Obama. Are you?

I'm not calling it 'accommodation' .. I'm calling it 'forced to make adjustments due to constitutional infringment'
From what I read most of it sounds okay. There is a thread here that brought up a few questions about the wording ... but I haven't read up on it and I'm really tired of this discussion so I don't know if I'm going to get into it on that thread ...


edit on 2/11/2012 by FlyersFan because: typo




posted on Feb, 11 2012 @ 10:08 AM
link   

Originally posted by Still
That is pretty anti-American and extremely twisted to suggest that MY TAX dollars should fund what you call an "outreach program" that gets to pick and choose which treatments are inline with their religious dogma.

Ohhhh the dramatic use of words.
Then you agree that MY TAX dollars should not fund the welfare system ... afterall, perhaps I disagree with giving my money to people who refuse to work and are just welfare bums.


You are so against Catholic Hospitals, most of which are in the poor neighborhoods and that provide free ER care to the poor .... then go ahead and see if you can close them down. I'm sure that the people in those neighborhoods would really appreciate the fact that you are keeping watch to make sure they aren't tarnished with anything 'Catholic'.



posted on Feb, 11 2012 @ 10:26 AM
link   

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
They are not under the umbrella of a church, IMO.

Observations on my 3 day stay in a Catholic hospital for hysterectomy and oophorectomy
and second one day stay for lumpectomy -

- 'Catholic' on the hospital and the paperwork and pretty much said everywhere.
- St. Francis statues and posters and prayers everywhere (it was St. Francis hospital).
- A crucifix in every room and in all the hall ways.
- Posters with prayers on them - usually by a Catholic saint.
- Parish priests from the different churches in the halls visiting their parishoners.
- A eucharistic minister each day visiting each room offering communion.
- A Catholic bible in each room.
- A Catholic chapel with mass said each day in the hospital.
- A Catholic priest assigned to the hospital and on call at all times.
- Catholic magazines (and a few secular ones too) on the waiting room tables.
- Bulletin boards full of information about Catholic Church potluck dinners, Catholic Church festivals, etc
- Workers saying - 'God Bless You', 'God Loves You', 'Do you want to pray together?'
- Pretty chimes on the loudspeaker in the morning with an opening day Catholic prayer.
- Pretty chimes on the loudspeaker at noon on the followed by the Angelus (a traditional Catholic prayer)
- Pretty chimes on the loudspeaker at the end of visiting hours with an evening Catholic prayer.

The hospital OOOOOOOZES Catholicism.

I've been in that emergency room probably four times .. I can't tell you if the emergency room is the same as the rest of the hospital or not. I was much too distracted at the time from what was going on with our emergencies to know for sure. I simply don't remember to say one way or the other for the ER.

SIDE NOTE - we have three hospitals in this city and, unfortunately, I've had to be in all three. The Catholic hospital is in the 'poor neighborhood'. The city hospital is in the part of town with the big business buildings. It's a better neighborhood but still kind of 'city-ish'. The third hospital is 15 minutes away from the center of town and is the nicest and most modern and most up to date. The City hospital and the one 15 minutes away do not have anything even remotely religious about them. They might have a non-denominational chapel .. I'm not sure ... but they are night and day different from the Catholic hospital.



posted on Feb, 11 2012 @ 10:47 AM
link   
The Catholic wishes to impose the 1st Amendment Right for religious worship to support the contention that the secular gov- representatives of the People, get out of their affairs, and to disregard whatever wrong doings they had done, or over the abortion issue, or what a person morally believes in.

Then let's debate upon that 1st Amendment Right.

1. The Catholic Sect had been known to play with little boys 'sexually'. It may not be offensive to the Catholic Sect and thus their continued dalliances with it, but it be most certainly offensive to our society, more so to the boys and their parents.

So, is the gov to allow the Catholic Sect to continue to abuse little boys, and any other thing it wishes to impose upon society, buy invoking the 1st Amendment Right of 'religious worship'?


2. Do remember, the 1st Amendment Right of 'religious worship' covers all 'religions' - which equally means Satanists too gets the right to sacrifice humans over fire.

That's the 1st Amendment Right the Catholic Sect is attempting to use, to invoke, and to stifle any further debate on the abortion/contraceptives issue.

But I plead with those true christians left in that Sect - Do know what pandora box game you are playing. The right to religious freedom comes with a responsibility to society and the 1st Amendment has a responsibility to ALL americans, not just catholics, so that all may live in peace.

Religion is personal choice between man and God, and best left within private domains, while society is a social contract with ALL to co-exist, sharing wealth and woes as one nation in the public space, with obligations to each other in order to progress.

If the real issue had been about abortion/contraceptive issue, then let's openly debate on that aspect and leave out the secular 1st Amendment clause.

But if it was for political circus, an agenda to corrupt the minds of the faithfuls, then the words of the Messiah had not been heeded but subverted for power lust - a deadly sin that the Sect is indulging in.



posted on Feb, 11 2012 @ 11:20 AM
link   

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic Hopefully Obama can find a way to provide the non-Catholics with birth control so the Catholics can pretend they're all righteous, while taking their birth control in secret...


This is where the hypocrisy of religion really hurts its cause, fails to keep step with modern life and alienates thinking people.

Yes, contraception is against the tenets of the Church - yet so many Catholics still use it. The very same people will argue and defend the Church's position on the issue. As a (the world's worst) Catholic, it's maddening. The church is so resistant to change it's debilitating and the members so indoctrinated we never question anything. I mean, seriously, the Vatican can get behind the idea of alien life but not contraception?

The lynch pin in their strategy, IMHO, is that the Church has been able to so perfectly marry the two separate issues of contraception and abortion. When you argue for one, they beat over the head with the other.

If you reflect on and separate the two issues, contraception is clearly a humane and responsible alternative to unwanted children who would be more at risk for neglect and abuse. Yet, the issue being inextricably tied to abortion for rhetorical purposes intimidates members from speaking out in support of it.

Further maddening the issue - Of course I don't want government dictating to churches but neither do I want churches mucking around in the political process - as they absolutely do - and injecting religion into political discourse every primary season.



posted on Feb, 11 2012 @ 11:41 AM
link   

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
The Catholic Sect had been known to play with little boys 'sexually'.

This again. Off topic deflection. Pedophiles are found in protestant churches and even more so in public schools. The topic - 1st Amendment rights.

It may not be offensive to the Catholic Sect and thus their continued dalliances with it,

:shk: You really didn't just say that, did you??

Religion is personal choice between man and God, and best left within private domains,

Christianity can't be private. By it's nature it has to reach out. Christians are supposed to feed the poor, take care of the orphan, help the sick ... all while staying faithful to their church teachings.

If the real issue had been about abortion/contraceptive issue,

No. That's a faith matter. TEven protestants and jewish groups who disagree with the Catholics on their interpretation of birth control (onanism) have come to the defense of the Catholic church having the right to not be forced to go outside their faith. The real issue is the First Amendment.



posted on Feb, 11 2012 @ 11:45 AM
link   

Originally posted by kosmicjack
The church is so resistant to change it's debilitating

The church can not change it's stand. A 'sin' is a 'sin', now and forever.
(*note - I disagree with Onanism being a sin ... but that's irrelevant)
Eventually the Catholic Church will have very few 'true catholics' left.
Either the Church will die a natural death or it will morph into something
that isn't Catholic. I suppose a third thing that could happen is that
everyone figures out the Catholic church is right and the world turns
Catholic .. but since I disagree with their interpretation, then naturally
I disagree that this will happen.

Everything ends. At some point the Catholic Church will as well.
it's just the way of things ...



posted on Feb, 11 2012 @ 11:48 AM
link   
reply to post by FlyersFan
 


I don't care what is on their stationery or who is roaming their halls. How they act does not determine what kind of organization they are BY LAW. What I care about is their LEGAL designation. Are they LEGALLY a hospital or a church? The answer is that they are a hospital, and should, IMO, operate as other hospitals are required to do.

I wonder... if a patient at the hospital has a living will, do the hospitals honor it if it means removing life support? Here are the compassionate answers by some of the loving Catholics:



“One solution to the issue was offered by John Haas, president of the National Catholic Bioethics Center and consultant to the U.S. bishop’s Committee on Pro-Life Activities, which helped draft the new directive along with other groups. He said that if attempts to resolve a conflict over a feeding tube by talking through the issue failed, the patient or their legal guardian are free to seek care elsewhere.”
...
“And, if she doesn’t like the way Catholics do health care, go somewhere else. It’s a free country and there are no guards at the hospital doors. And, if there is no other hospital to go to, start one."
...
“If a patient or person comes to a Catholic hospital and has and advance directive ... that advance directive could not be honored in a Catholic hospital because that would be seen as participating in passive euthanasia,’ says Father Weinandy ... ‘If they want that directive followed, they’d need to move them to another health care facility where the directive would be followed.’”


Compassion and Choices

Fortunately, our ONE hospital within 2 hours is not affiliated with religion. But in many communities, Catholic hospitals are the only choice.

There is one thing Catholics want and that's control.



posted on Feb, 11 2012 @ 11:53 AM
link   

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
What I care about is their LEGAL designation. Are they LEGALLY a hospital or a church?

Its a Church hospital - owned and operated by the Church.

I wonder... if a patient at the hospital has a living will, do the hospitals honor it if it means removing life support?

Off topic deflection ... but yes. My father was in St. Francis in Hartford Connecticut back in June and he had his life support (breathing) pulled when my mother showed the doctor the living will my father made. He died, under morphine, about an hour and a half later. When I was in the Catholic hospital here for three days I was asked for my living will and I brought it with me. (It says no hookups whatsoever .. and to drug me up even if it hastens my death). They said 'no problem'.

There is one thing Catholics want and that's control.

Dunno .. sounds like you want more control over the Catholics than the Catholics want over you.



posted on Feb, 12 2012 @ 05:21 AM
link   

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Still
You are just making things up now.

Nope. Like it or not .. and obviously you and whoever gave you a star (BH
) don't like it ... it's true.


Where in those links am I supposed to find any evidence that I want hospitals in poor neighborhoods closed down?
That was what you said.
That was completely made up.



posted on Feb, 12 2012 @ 05:22 AM
link   

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Ohhhh the dramatic use of words.
Then you agree that MY TAX dollars should not fund the welfare system ... afterall, perhaps I disagree with giving my money to people who refuse to work and are just welfare bums.


My constitution protects me from having to fund your RELIGION with my tax dollars. This is to protect my and your religious freedom. Show me the part that includes welfare.


You are so against Catholic Hospitals, most of which are in the poor neighborhoods and that provide free ER care to the poor .... then go ahead and see if you can close them down. I'm sure that the people in those neighborhoods would really appreciate the fact that you are keeping watch to make sure they aren't tarnished with anything 'Catholic'.


So when you cannot argue reality, you make up an argument in your head and respond to that?



And yes, as long as you are using MY MONEY to do your "charitable works" you do not get to hide behind your religion and administer your "help" accordingly. It is my money. Help is help. Otherwise, let a non-Catholic hospital open up and get those federal grants and subsidies.

edit on 12-2-2012 by Still because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 12 2012 @ 06:08 AM
link   

Originally posted by Still
Where in those links am I supposed to find any evidence that I want hospitals in poor neighborhoods closed down?
That was what you said. That was completely made up.

No. That's ultimately what you must want. 1 + 1 = 2. Catholic Hospitals are traditionally built in the most poor neighborhoods because that is their mission. Catholic hospitals can not ever participate in birth control or abortion on any level. The government forcing them to do so (which you support) would cause the Catholic hospitals to have to close. Thus .. all the poor people who use the ERs for free would suffer.

That is the result of what you want. Did you not think your position on this all the way through? Government forcing Catholic hospitals to have to support birth control or abortion = closed catholic hospitals. Therefore YOU support closing them. This isn't rocket science ... 1 + 1 = 2. If you don't want the Catholic hospitals to close then you have to change your position on supporting the government forcing birth control and abortion support on the hospitals. It's just that simple.


Originally posted by Still
My constitution protects me from having to fund your RELIGION with my tax dollars.

The government helps fund all sorts of faith-based charity groups. It's cheaper for them and easier for them to use those systems that are in place to help Americans rather than creating their own system.


you do not get to hide behind your religion

I never said Catholicism is my religion. Not that it matters ... I think Onanism and the birth control beliefs are outdated and come from the' Outbreeding the enemy mentality. But they have a right to believe it.


let a non-Catholic hospital open up and get those federal grants and subsidies.

Sure ... no problem. Have the Catholics close down their outreach hospital and see if the city will build one in it's place. I wonder how the city will feel about having a hospital in the poorest neighborhoods where nearly all the people who go through the ER never pay their bills?? Doesn't sound very profitable ... I'm wondering who will take on this task. But sure ... lets cut out the charitable hospital in the poor neighborhood and build a big profit hospital instead. I'm sure they'd go for it once they see the bottom line of how well they can do in those neighborhoods.



posted on Feb, 13 2012 @ 12:55 AM
link   

Originally posted by FlyersFan
No. That's ultimately what you must want. 1 + 1 = 2. Catholic Hospitals are traditionally built in the most poor neighborhoods because that is their mission. Catholic hospitals can not ever participate in birth control or abortion on any level. The government forcing them to do so (which you support) would cause the Catholic hospitals to have to close. Thus .. all the poor people who use the ERs for free would suffer.

That is the result of what you want. Did you not think your position on this all the way through? Government forcing Catholic hospitals to have to support birth control or abortion = closed catholic hospitals. Therefore YOU support closing them. This isn't rocket science ... 1 + 1 = 2. If you don't want the Catholic hospitals to close then you have to change your position on supporting the government forcing birth control and abortion support on the hospitals. It's just that simple.


There is no reason those hospitals have to be religious in nature to do those good things.
It is THAT SIMPLE.

You keep talking about closing them down so that must be your idea.


The government helps fund all sorts of faith-based charity groups. It's cheaper for them and easier for them to use those systems that are in place to help Americans rather than creating their own system.


And your response to what I wrote is...?


I never said Catholicism is my religion. Not that it matters ... I think Onanism and the birth control beliefs are outdated and come from the' Outbreeding the enemy mentality. But they have a right to believe it.


I never said you were a catholic. I said you do not get to hide behind your religion. It was really that simple as well. I have a right to believe things as well. Unfortunately we are not talking about simply what people believe. We are talking about practice.


Sure ... no problem. Have the Catholics close down their outreach hospital and see if the city will build one in it's place. I wonder how the city will feel about having a hospital in the poorest neighborhoods where nearly all the people who go through the ER never pay their bills?? Doesn't sound very profitable ... I'm wondering who will take on this task. But sure ... lets cut out the charitable hospital in the poor neighborhood and build a big profit hospital instead. I'm sure they'd go for it once they see the bottom line of how well they can do in those neighborhoods.


What a confused bunch of nonsense.
You seem to have no idea what you are talking about.

You mean that since it is a Catholic hospital, all the patients pay their bills but if it were not Catholic the patients would stop paying their bills? I thought these were all poor people being helped?

Do you not understand government subsidies? You might want to think all that through all the way once and give it a second try. Keep in mind my point about my tax dollars doing those wonderful charitable works.



posted on Feb, 13 2012 @ 09:02 AM
link   

Originally posted by Still
There is no reason those hospitals have to be religious in nature to do those good things.

OMG ... you didn't just say that did you? It's a CATHOLIC CHURCH hospital. The whole point of it even being there is that it is CATHOLIC. Of course it has to be religious in nature.


You keep talking about closing them down so that must be your idea.

It is a CATHOLIC Church hospital. If it isn't allowed to be Catholic, then it has no reason for existing. That is it's whole purpose .. to outreach while following the Catholic faith and to be run by the Catholic Church. By you saying it has no reason to be religious in nature, It is YOU who wants it closed down. If you didn't .. you'd realize that, without it being Catholic, it has no reason to operate. That's the whole mission of the Catholic hospital.


I said you do not get to hide behind your religion

And what exactly is my religion? Do I even have one? Do you know?
If you can figure it out ... let me know.


Dude .. you are not making any sense at all.
Must be all that anti-catholic hate mucking up your cogs and wheels ...



posted on Feb, 13 2012 @ 12:45 PM
link   

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Still
There is no reason those hospitals have to be religious in nature to do those good things.

OMG ... you didn't just say that did you? It's a CATHOLIC CHURCH hospital. The whole point of it even being there is that it is CATHOLIC. Of course it has to be religious in nature.




You might want to slow down and catch up with reality.
The whole point of them being there is that it is Catholic?
Huh?
I thought the WHOLE POINT of them being there was to be a hospital.

You need to make up your mind.
No hospital needs to have a religious affiliation.
If Catholics cannot spend MY TAX DOLLARS how I see fit without getting their religion all over it then they need to let someone else step in.

You hit that reply button way to fast. Next time, stop and read and think, then post.



posted on Feb, 13 2012 @ 12:53 PM
link   

Originally posted by FlyersFan
It is a CATHOLIC Church hospital. If it isn't allowed to be Catholic, then it has no reason for existing.


Kind of exposing your hand here, no?
You really cannot think of any other reason for a hospital to exist other than to just be Catholic?
I do not even know what the hell that means. Hospitals are places where sick people go to get better, not to get Catholic.


That is it's whole purpose .. to outreach while following the Catholic faith and to be run by the Catholic Church.


So these hospitals have no interest in healing the sick? All they do is BE Catholic?


By you saying it has no reason to be religious in nature, It is YOU who wants it closed down.


You do not see how they can fix a broken leg without bringing their religion up?


If you didn't .. you'd realize that, without it being Catholic, it has no reason to operate. That's the whole mission of the Catholic hospital.


You really need to get a grip. Not even those hospitals will tell you that. They will tell you their whole mission is to heal the sick.



And what exactly is my religion? Do I even have one? Do you know?
If you can figure it out ... let me know.


Is English not your first language?


Dude .. you are not making any sense at all.
Must be all that anti-catholic hate mucking up your cogs and wheels ...


Oh I am making all kinds of sense. I am not the one that believes the only reason for a Catholic Hospital to exist is to be Catholic.



posted on Feb, 13 2012 @ 12:53 PM
link   

Originally posted by Still
The whole point of them being there is that it is Catholic?
Huh? I thought the WHOLE POINT of them being there was to be a hospital.

The whole point of them being there is that it is Catholic. Guess you missed the whole 'CATHOLIC hospital' part that is on every wall and every piece of stationary and on the top of every one of the buildings, eh? The whole point is that it is an outreach of the Catholic faith ... run by the Catholic Church .. in accordance with their faith. YOU want to make it a secular hospital, which then would make it pointless for the Catholic church to have a hospital at all. So yes .. you want it closed down and then a secular hospital put up instead. So YOU are the one discriminating based upon religion. Congratulations.

The whole point is that it is CATHOLIC. That's the only reason it's there.
The Church isn't going to slap up a secular hospital and run it in a secular manner.
It's CHURCH OUTREACH.
This isn't rocket science. Even you should be able to understand that much.


Next time, stop and read and think, then post.

Back atchya



posted on Feb, 13 2012 @ 01:02 PM
link   
reply to post by FlyersFan
 


You are not making sense repeating yourself.
The WHOLE POINT of a Catholic Hospital is to heal the sick, not to be Catholic.
I do not even understand where you get that from. I get my opinion from my Catholic upbringing and understanding what a hospital is.

I think you think you are thinking of a church. Oh, right, you think they are the same.



posted on Feb, 13 2012 @ 01:06 PM
link   
reply to post by FlyersFan
 


I guess you need to explain to me why a Catholic church has to use my tax dollars to help the poor. I do not get why a Jewish, Satanic, or Secular hospital could not use my tax dollars to help the poor.

Clear that up for me.



posted on Feb, 13 2012 @ 01:15 PM
link   

Originally posted by Still
Hospitals are places where sick people go to get better, not to get Catholic.

That's the whole point of the CATHOLIC Church hospital outreach operated in accordance with the moral , ethical, and social teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. Secular hospitals do not do that. Therefore, the Church can not operate an outreach hospital in that manner.


Not even those hospitals will tell you that. They will tell you their whole mission is to heal the sick.

You are so wrong. Seriously ... so very, very wrong. :shk:
Heal the sick ... following in the CATHOLIC spirit and teachings ...
Catholic Church Hospitals - some mission statements

Catholic Medical Center

"The heart of Catholic Medical Center is to provide health, healing and hope in a manner that offers innovative high quality services, compassion, and respect for the human dignity of every individual who seeks or needs our care as part of Christ's healing ministry through the Catholic Church."


Saint Vincent Hospital
123 Summer Street Worcester, MA 01608


Saint Vincent Hospital's mission is: * To participate in the creation of healthier lives within the community. * To provide healthcare services in a fiscally responsible manner which contribute to the physical, psychological, social and spiritual well being of the patients and community which it serves. * To provide assistance to the whole person in a Catholic spirit of equality and interfaith serving all regardless of age, color, creed or gender. * To carry on educational and research activities related to the provision of care to the sick and injured or related to the promotion of health.


St. Michael's Hospital
30 Bond Street Toronto, Ontario M5B 1W8


At St. Michael's Hospital we recognize the value of every person and are guided by our commitment to excellence and leadership. We demonstrate this by: * Providing exemplary physical, emotional and spiritual care for each of our patients and their families * Balancing the continued commitment to the care of the poor and those most in need with the provision of highly specialized services to a broader community * Building a work environment where each person is valued, respected and has an opportunity for personal and professional growth * Advancing excellence in health services education * Fostering a culture of discovery in all of our activities and supporting exemplary health sciences research * Strengthening our relationships with universities, colleges, other hospitals, agencies and our community * Demonstrating social responsibility through the just use of our resources. The commitment of our staff, physicians, volunteers, students, community partners and friends to our mission permits us to maintain a quality of presence and tradition of caring, which are the hallmarks of St. Michael's Hospital.


The Catholic Transcript - discussion about the Catholic Mission of a Catholic Hospital being intact


Waterbury - A proposed joint venture between St. Marys hospital and a health care investment and management company means the hospital would not compromise it's Catholic mission, say officials from the hospital, the investment company and the Archdiocese of Hartford. In fact,says hospital CEO Chad Wable, it's Catholic identity would be strengthened ..

St. Marys Catholic heritage and traditions and the Ethical and Religious Directives under which the hospital currently operates will be maintained. Archbishop Henry J. Mansell confirmed this when he said in a statement "persuant to the agreement with LHP, St. Mary's will retain it's Catholic identity by adhering to the Catholic ethical and religious directives as they apply to the provision of health care. Consistant with those directives, the hospital will be operated in accordance with the moral , ethical, and social teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.


St. Vincent Charity Medical Center

In the Spirit of the Sisters of Charity of St. Augustine, the St. Vincent Charity Medical Center family is dedicated to the healing ministry of Jesus. As Caregivers we serve with a deep respect for the dignity and value of all persons, we are focused on quality care, dedicated to the poor and committed to continuing education.


Catholic Health Initiatives

The mission of Catholic Health Initiatives is to nurture the healing ministry of the Church by bringing it new life, energy and viability in the 21st century. Fidelity to the Gospel urges us to emphasize human dignity and social justice ...




top topics



 
9
<< 2  3  4    6 >>

log in

join