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Originally posted by Astyanax
reply to post by DenyObfuscation
but how are they created-measured-repeated. how is a p4 or p5 determined on an instrument in non west? forget logs. what makes it a true 3:2 more than pythagoras method?
There's no point asking the OP. He can't answer this, or any other question put to him.
and despite all the many tens of thousands of years from that primeval time to this, we still find ensembles of pipes and panpipes, still cut from lengths of cane, still tuned, in a great many cases (though not all), more or less according to the system described in the story of the Yellow Bell, based on the simple whole number ratios, 2/3 and 4/3.
The Otto 128 vibrates a perfect fifth pulse that can be placed on the body and transmitted directly into joints, bones, tissues, acupuncture points, and trigger points. Using the Otto 128 two times on any one point is adequate. Too much stimulation can cause a decrease in nitric oxide.
Originally posted by Astyanax
[
Those wondering if there is any truth in anything the OP says would do well to read this paper on confabulation[/url].
Berendt cites physicist Charon, noting,Both the electron and the black hole [i.e. extremely dense matter or zero beats] are characterized by totally curved space and by curved time. This means that the time of electrons and of black holes is opposite to our 'material' time, which moves on a straight line from past to present to future. This, in turn, may imply that if entropy grows in the'material' world, then in the world of electrons (and black holes) precisely the opposite force might grow, the force of negentropy.(37)
The Diapason, first overtone, or node, as the halfway spot on the vibrating string, is, Beaulieu points out, equivalent to the complimentary halves of the Tai Chi symbol from the Wu Chi. Tai Chi, just as with the Diapason, is the basis for all harmony. Music theorist Berendt comments, "the octave, the proportion 1:2, which has always been used to signify the polarity of the world: yang and yin, male and female, heaven and earth, etc."(38)
"the fourth and fifth work together as yin and yang...The fifth, and the fourth are the basis for the 1-4-5 chordal progressions found throughout music of all cultures," states Bealieau.(41)
(37) Berendt, The World is Sound , p. 123 citing Jean E. Charon: L'Esprit cet inconnu (Paris: n.p.,1977). Berendt also cites music analyst Wilfried Krüger who remarks, "By establishing that time stands still, that 'place' is nowhere and everywhere, and that the mass of a particle moving atthe speed of light (such as a photon) is equal to zero, nuclear physics approaches a threshold that mystics have approached, and still approach, from the other direction." Wilfried Krüger: Das Universum Singt (Trier: Editions Tréves, 1983).
(38) Bealieau, Music and Sound in the Healing Arts , p. 47; Berendt, The World Is Sound , p. 61.
Originally posted by Astyanax
reply to post by fulllotusqigong
The semitone is the difference between the Perfect Fifth and Perfect Fourth as the Tritone.
The difference between a fourth and a fifth is a tone, not a semitone.
This is kindergarten stuff.
The semitone is the difference between the Perfect Fifth and Perfect Fourth as the Tritone -- so the Semitone like the Tritone also has the same paradox of pitch difference
So they take a fifth and go to the fourth by semitones or vice versa:
Originally posted by ThoughtForms
your ignorance is baffling. Sound can be rhythmic without containing a 'tone' per se, earthquakes aren't melodies is what he's getting at. no ones denying the heart makes sound, that would be stupid.
-TF
Most instruments are also subject to non-linear effects in the production of the sound, e.g. when the superposition of waves produces partials that cannot be explained by a simple theory. (The next lecture will consider some non-linearities in the production and detection of sound.)
For example, intervals with small-integer frequency ratios (e.g., justly tuned octaves—2:1, perfect fifths—3:2, or perfect fourths—4:3), or intervals that closely approximate such ratios (as in equal temperament), are structurally important across musical cultures, including those of India, China, Africa, and Western Europe (Burns, 1999; Meyer, 1956; Schellenberg & Trehub, 1994b; Trehub, Schellenberg, & Hill, 1997).
While a number of theories have been advanced to account for why musical consonance is related to simple frequency ratios, as yet there is no completely satisfying explanation. Here, we explore the theory of synchronization properties of ensembles of coupled neural oscillators to demonstrate why simple frequency ratios may have achieved a special status and why they are important for auditory perception. The analysis shows that the mode-locked states ordering give precisely the standard ordering of consonance as often listed in Western music theory. Our results thus indicate the importance of neural synchrony in musical perception.
The stability interval of 1 : 1 is marked by ΔΩ1, 1 : 2 by ΔΩ2 and 2 : 3 by ΔΩ3. The complete set of mode-locked states is referred to as a Devil's staircase (Schuster 1995) and is a universal feature of driven coupled oscillators.
the natural C=256 tuning is grounded in the physical laws of our universe
Originally posted by fulllotusqigong
Originally posted by Astyanax
reply to post by DenyObfuscation
but how are they created-measured-repeated. how is a p4 or p5 determined on an instrument in non west? forget logs. what makes it a true 3:2 more than pythagoras method?
There's no point asking the OP. He can't answer this, or any other question put to him.
and despite all the many tens of thousands of years from that primeval time to this, we still find ensembles of pipes and panpipes, still cut from lengths of cane, still tuned, in a great many cases (though not all), more or less according to the system described in the story of the Yellow Bell, based on the simple whole number ratios, 2/3 and 4/3.
O.K. that was in my response to the original question - it clearly answers the question.
edit on 18-2-2012 by fulllotusqigong because: (no reason given)
The Otto 128 vibrates a perfect fifth pulse that can be placed on the body and transmitted directly into joints, bones, tissues, acupuncture points, and trigger points. Using the Otto 128 two times on any one point is adequate. Too much stimulation can cause a decrease in nitric oxide.
More from John Beaulieu -- he is awesomeedit on 18-2-2012 by fulllotusqigong because: (no reason given)
The Tritone is the extreme limit of the Western logarithmic tuning system -- it is the most dissonant and so it called the "Devil's Interval" by the medieval church -- and banned. My position is that the Tritone reveals a deeper secret -- the Tritone reveals the extreme limit of Western tuning but also is a portal to the secret of complementary opposites. So the exact ambiguity of pitch tuning with the tritone again reveals this structural limitation of the Hertz tuning system in general.
The Perfect Fifth and Perfect Fourth intervals are not the Western fifth and fourth of the logarithmic tuning.
In the West there is sometimes a tingling sensation from music -- the chills -- technically called "frisson" -- it is considered to form from the creation of harmonic beats -- so when the female voice sings high pitch there are more beats due to the more overtone harmonics closer together and these beats then create a stronger amplitude subharmonic.
A true (just) perfect 5th contains no beating, because it is a true 3 : 2 ratio.
Sound is something we listen to so there's no need for a visual measurement.
a note divided at the perfect fifth should from the other side of that point be a perfect fourth?
Originally posted by JackTheTripper
By the way - what is the maximum off-tune relation for a tune to be considered as off-tune? Is there a mathematical formula for this? ... Just asking.
Ordering of consonances for two-tone intervals from Helmholtz (1877, pp. 183 and 194) as accepted in the Western musical culture in decreasing order of ‘perfection’ from most consonant to most dissonant. (See also table 5.2 in Roederer (1975, p. 141). The third column lists the frequency ratios of the two tones as set out in Helmholtz (1877). The fourth column lists ΔΩ, the width of the stability interval (see text and figure 4), that is associated with each musical interval as determined numerically using equations (4.1) and (4.3) with ϵ=5, α=100, τ1=τ2=1. Being dissonances, the minor second and tritone have extremely small stability intervals making them difficult to identify.)
That is, consonance is not just the absence of roughness but determined by neural processing in the auditory cortex. Itoh et al. (2003) reached this conclusion by studying the auditory evoked potentials indicative of cortical activity response. Of the intervals studied (1, 4, 6, 7, 9 semitones), they found that in all cases the evoked potentials were at their highest (in terms of voltage) for two pure tones separated by a perfect fifth (7 semitones) when compared with other intervals. These results provide electrophysiological evidence that matches behavioural preference for simple frequency ratios. Given that pure tones only were made use of in the experiments, this preference has nothing to do with the beating of harmonics which forms the basis of Helmholtz's theory (1877).
Originally posted by UncleV
A little about myself for reference. I have been a musician for over 35 years, grew up in a musical environment and listen to and play all sorts of styles. I have also mastered some award winning CD's, built/designed and repaired musical instruments. I also have worked in sound therapy on and off over the years. I've explored all manner of sound and am very receptive to alternative thoughts in music/sound. So, I'm not coming from a 'western' mind set per se, that one way is 'right'. This is my interest, I just believe Fulllotus needs to speak to his audience better and more concisely.
One thing I've come to realize is that even the most schooled musician often has no clue in how sound works.
Another thing I've realized from working with people in the sound therapy community is that 90% of them have little understanding of the mechanics of sound or the origins of accepted approaches. It is frustrating to me to read things like 'listen to your heart', I get it, I really do but it does little to uncover what actually happens.
Originally posted by UncleV
The Greeks achieved the geometric ability to tune an equal-tempered monochord when Archytas, Plato's Pythagorean friend, solved the problem of doubling the volume of the god's cubical altar at Delphi, the allegorical form of the problem of establishing the third root of 2. Now the cube root of 2 establishes an equal tempered major third within the monochord octave....From that beginning, the equal-tempered whole tone is the geometric mean within the major third, and the equal-tempered semitone is the geometric mean within the whole tone. Iterations of this procedure will produce all twelve-tones in equal-temperament. The necessity of tempering the pure intervals, defined by the ratios of integers, is one of the great themes of Plato's Republic. In his allegorical form, “citizens” modelled on the tones of the scale must not demand “exactly what they are owed,” but must keep in mind “what is best for the city.”219
The use of music strings – either the monochord or a lute – became a new connection where now geometric length using phonetic letters also was arithmetic number as harmonics. The music ratios were then a cognitive breakthrough for the Greek Miracle. Peter Pesic has analyzed ancient music mathematics and also understands this secret connection: “Commutative versus noncommutative lies at the heart of causality itself.”223 On music ratios David Creese writes, “arithmetically limited geometrical entities (line segments representing numerable quantities) became the visual intermediary between numbers and notes.” (p. 173)
So Archytas then took the double octave, the “Greater Perfect System,” as four but it is also the square of the octave used by Pythagorean number theory. The result is that four times or the square of the weight to stretch the string now makes twice the frequency, instead of half the frequency at double the string length. This was the “bait and switch” trick that was the direct inspiration, later, for Newton’s inverse square law of gravity!242
Of course the other tenet attributed to Pythagoras is the Pythagorean Theorem – but we’ve now seen it’s actually based on Archytas! In other words the 9/8 major 2nd music interval is from the double octave of 9/4 as the perfect fifth mathematically expanded – 3 squared/2 squared. This 9/4 is then halved back into the octave as 9/8 and the 9/8 is then cubed as the tritone music interval, the Devil’s Interval, which is also the square root of two. 2/3 as 666 is reversed to 3/2
and then the infinite spiral of fifths – the Great Dragon Tuning – is now the closed circle– the
sinusoid – that is squared as 3/2 squared. As Bowen emphasized, this bait and switch or
reversing the order of infinity, from 2/3 to 3/2, had to take place for the Babylonian algebraic
equation to hold true – arithmetic mean times harmonic mean equals geometric mean squared.