Missouri teen girl gets 'life' for killing 9yr girl to 'find out what it felt like'...

reply to post by Evil_Santa


Oh, I'm fully capable of realizing that I'm a homicidal ape pretending to be a caring human being where my family is concerned...

If someone harms my family they're in mortal danger. I'm not proud of that fact...but there it is.

reply to post by lampsalot

Maybe we should give her a choice. Life in a mental hospital for the criminally insane or euthanasia? I don't have a problem with giving criminals the option of suicide, I just hate the idea of death as a punishment. I just find it so totalitarian and the idea of 'good people' being full of righteous hate just disgusts me for some reason.

See, I think "life" whether it be in a hospital or a prison is no life at all. And I don't consider myself "good people" necessarily. No righteousness here, I believe everyone should get what they deserve, and I've seen plenty of hard times, and I deserved them all and then some. I don't even like happy endings in movies. I like for the movie to end with everyone getting their just desserts, even the so-called good guys.

So, in a case like the OP, if I were the grieving father, I would want blood, and if that buys me a place in hell, then so be it. I'm fine with owning my own consequences, and I think everyone else should be also.

In reality though, given the choice between life in prison or death, I believe death is the more humane punishment, and also the better conservation of resources, and also better for the economy and the environment. If I were the criminal, given the choice, of course I would choose prison, because I would spend every day looking for a way out! If someone is not safe to be loose in society, then why give them a lifetime to figure out a way to get out of prison?

Originally posted by lampsalot
Has anyone ever thought that the main line of thinking here, that we should simply produce more suffering on the girl who did this, is the kind of thinking that caused her to commit the murder in the first place?

Honestly sometimes I feel like people are so cruel and unforgiving that they aren't worthy of forgiveness or kindness. But then I realize that if we are not kind to others who don't deserve it, then we can't ever change anything.

Personally I don't think the girl who killed that other girl, or any of you who think we should kill her to avenge the girl she killed, really deserve kindness. But I hope everyone receives kindness anyways.

I'm not entirely clear on why her death would necessarily "produce more suffering" for her. I don't think anyone has specified a particularly cruel method, such as "death by a thousand paper cuts" or anything. What is more likely to produce suffering - a quick death, or a lingering captivity in an iron cage? I know what the answer to that question is for me, but your mileage may vary. I'd prefer the death, myself.

Forgiveness is one thing, open invitation to do it again is quite another. A society must protect itself, or it will self destruct, as ours is presently doing. It's not a matter of avenging the dead, it's a matter of protecting the living.

I can tell you straight up that I don't deserve any kindness, so in my case you are right, but I'm OK with that.

The brains of psychopaths have been proven to be structured differently than those with a conscience according to brain scans, also when hooked up to monitoring equipment which measures physiological changes such as blood pressure ...etc and asked to watch various images on a screen, there were no changes physiologically when shown say film footage of real human atrocities versus film footage of fields of flowers. The word 'cancer' displayed did not affect them anymore than the word 'peace'. These results were not the case with non-psychopaths. It does make you think how de-sensitized we are becoming though with so many images blasted at us.

The thing is some people are born without a conscience, their brains are literally wired differently. They do not all go on to commit murder, most don't, but if they are also raised in an abusive household then the likelyhood of them committing violence goes way up. Non-violent psychopaths also create mayhem, many just learn how to cover it up by mimicking the emotions of people who actually have emotions.

There does seem to be a genetic connection, those with a psychopathic parent are more likely to be a psychpath themselves, but this is not always the case. Sometimes these children do grow up with genuinely loving and caring parents who are at a complete loss as to why their child does not show any signs of having a conscience They go to enormous lengths to try to get help and find that the blame is placed on them as parents.

Last I heard, there is a law in Canada that disallows anyone under the age of 18 yrs to be diagnosed as a psychopath because they don't want to place a 'negative label' on a 'child'. I think, though caution is necessary, this is a mistake. How can they recognize a problem if they won't even acknowledge it exists. Many people don't want to accept that some people, even as children, are untreatable.

The question is, what to do with them. Especially if they are young. IF this girl is a psychopath, she will never change, medication definately has to be ruled out as it could have been a contributing factor. I don't think prison is the answer for her though. I also don't think psychopaths should be put in general population with non-psychopaths in the prison system. Non-psychopathic criminals may be messed up and have committed crimes but they are redeemable and should not be subjected to what the conscienceless ones are gonna do to them in prison. I think psychopaths should be separated from the rest of the prison population and put in institutions specifically tailored to them and in the case of violent offences they should never be released.

Scans Reveal Differences in Psychopathic Brains

Findings could explain their anti-social tendencies, researchers say
November 29, 2011 RSS Feed Print

TUESDAY, Nov. 29 (HealthDay News) -- Differences seen in the structure and function of psychopaths' brains could help explain their often callous and impulsive anti-social behavior, U.S. researchers report.

They compared brain scans of 20 prisoners diagnosed as psychopaths and 20 prisoners who weren't psychopaths.

The scans revealed that psychopaths have fewer connections between the ventromedial prefrontal cortex, which is involved in feelings such as empathy and guilt, and the amygdala, which mediates fear and anxiety.

"This is the first study to show both structural and functional differences in the brains of people diagnosed with psychopathy," Michael Koenigs, an assistant professor of psychiatry in the University of Wisconsin School of Medicine and Public Health, said in a university news release. "Those two structures in the brain, which are believed to regulate emotion and social behavior, seem to not be communicating as they should."

The study was led by University of Wisconsin-Madison researchers and published recently in the Journal of Neuroscience.

"The combination of structural and functional abnormalities provides compelling evidence that the dysfunction observed in this crucial social-emotional circuitry is a stable characteristic of our psychopathic offenders," Joseph Newman, a psychology professor at UW-Madison, said. "I am optimistic that our ongoing collaborative work will shed more light on the source of this dysfunction and strategies for treating the problem."
Text

health.usnews.com...

Originally posted by lampsalot

No offense but I'm glad you are not my dad lol

I admire your consistency on the issue though in an odd way.

edit on 9-2-2012 by lampsalot because: (no reason given)

No offense taken. My kind of people isn't for everyone.

My kids seem to think the world of me, and I attribute that in large part to that very consistency and lack of compromise. In the same way that they know if they mess up, I'll handle it and make them pretty unhappy in the process, they also know that if they're in trouble or in need, hell itself won't get in my way from coming to their aid.

When my son was little, I'd occasionally have to pop his little fanny. Not often, but there were those times. It hurt his feelings more than it hurt his backside. He'd come slinking up to me afterward, and say something like "Dad, do you hate me?" or "Dad, are you mad at me?". I'd say "No, son. It's never about hating." he'd crawl up in my lap and go to sleep, and all was well in his little world.

He knew just where he stood within it.

reply to post by batgirl


It's great to see someone else who has an interest in these conditions and has done some research. I've posted multiple links to research that shows there is now an answer to treating individuals with these conditions. I also posted a direct link to the actual QEEG research regarding the brain abnormalities that your article discusses.

In addition to the information you made regarding inmates hooked up to biofeedback machines and monitoring for changes in physical reactions to negative stimuli, I recall reading a study that used this as a measurement for a population of prison inmates who underwent a few neurofeedback sessions. The results of the study was that after less than 10 sessions of neurofeedback therapy, those inmates showed responses to the negative stimuli. I'm looking for a link to the study right now but haven't had any success thus far, but will post it if I can find it.

I agree with many here that say she deserves this... My wife is a nurse and deals with patients on Prozac on a daily basis and this isn't a side effected usually associated with the drug or at all in her professional opinion, although not impossible.

Side Effects:
Insomnia, weakness, and loss of appetite are among the most common side effects reported with Prozac. Some of the side effects that are rare (seen in less than 1 percent of patients) include canker sores, high cholesterol, and acne. In most cases, side effects of Prozac are minor and either do not require medical attention or can be treated easily. However, if you develop any serious problems, such as suicidal thoughts or behavior, hallucinations, or panic attacks, notify your healthcare provider immediately.

I think this way of thinking could've been brought out by the drug, I'm a firm believer that killing someone is something much more deeply rooted in the human brain. Possibly the drug just brought it to the surface.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by silo13

 

Wow..... Her own words are downright chilling and remind me of one thing above all others. She reminds me of a dog or a lion that has tasted human blood. Once that happens, killing it really isn't optional anymore. It's removed the taboo of attacking people and it will attack again. Same with her.....she got off on this, by her diary entry and can be expected to do it again. Sick.



REALLY? A nine year old? how can a nine year old be sentenced to life? im so sick of this country..

rehabilitate her for F*(ks saKE!

cleary the meds have altered her stasis.. get her off the meds with some counseling and keep her under watch but treat her like regular nine year old if you want her to be normal. this is sick to imprison a little girl no matter what she has done.

reply to post by batgirl


Great post with good supporting info. The one thing I hope for is that maybe one day we can rehabilitate psychopaths with some success. Maybe if we became really advanced we'd be able to screen everyone at a very young age, see if they have psychopathic traits and provide them with preventative treatment that hasn't been developed yet. Sure, at the present time we have no idea how to go about it, but it doesn't mean it's not possible. Keep them locked up where they can do no harm and maybe a few decades down the road we start testing some kind of treatment that maybe works? If they are alive, at least we'd have a group to possibly conduct studies on. It's still a very tough decision though.

Originally posted by phoenixlights321
reply to post by batgirl

 

Great post with good supporting info. The one thing I hope for is that maybe one day we can rehabilitate psychopaths with some success. Maybe if we became really advanced we'd be able to screen everyone at a very young age, see if they have psychopathic traits and provide them with preventative treatment that hasn't been developed yet. Sure, at the present time we have no idea how to go about it, but it doesn't mean it's not possible. Keep them locked up where they can do no harm and maybe a few decades down the road we start testing some kind of treatment that maybe works? If they are alive, at least we'd have a group to possibly conduct studies on. It's still a very tough decision though.

edit on 9-2-2012 by phoenixlights321 because: (no reason given)

You didn't read the entire thread as i've posted some information regarding successful treatment methods already on previous pages.

Originally posted by n00bUK
This is yet another example of why there needs to be an alternative to prison.

I have nothing else to say other than I think story's like this should touch everybody's soul and make them realize that the system we have now has major faults. Prison wont change this girl, it will institutionalize her and give her a very distort her view on reality at a young age. There is ways of helping this girl, prison not been one of them.

My thoughts go out with the family, on both sides.

Society needs to look at what is triggering this type of behavior and instead of imprisoning them - deal with the problem, not put it on ice

This!!!


I 100% agree and support your opinion. Have some compassion...lets look at what is causing this behavior in society...its equally as sickening for me to read comments coming from grown men/women saying things like "I hope this girl never see's the light of day and dies of old age in prison"

Having a 6 year old daughter and 15 year old daughter this story has touched a lot of personal emotions within myself. Anger, disgust, sorrow and pity. I can say I wouldn't want to hear about any reform for anyone taking my child's life. I may feel differently later, much, much later, but part of me thinks that would be a tough pill to swallow. I would probably want the scales evened.

Rehabilitation is a good idea where properly applied, but IMO there is a difference from being a thief, an addict, a dumb ass, and a murderer. What about the per-determined killer that thinks to himself I can off this person and get damn good lawyer and some rehab and not serve life, what about that jacked up thought? Well I guess that happens anyway.

Higher successful rehabilitation percentiles are great but lives are still lost prior to or maybe after. Just doesn't seem fair to be so focused on the killers shortcomings in family life and social underdevelopment, when another family is grieving at the lost of their child. That one doesn't get a second chance. We are all lab mice in the name of research.

Crazy sad story

HA!! Alternatives to prison, this girl deserves a bullet in her head. If you're in jail for more that 15 years they should never let you out. Animals, just cold blooded animals.

reply to post by Glass


I understand what you are saying. Yes I do believe that the inhibitors in the drugs could be a factor in why her instinct's didn't kick in. Yet logic; which in this case could be viewed as the social version of cause and effect, should have still been instituted by her thought processes. We must have both the natural and mental checks and balances, if we are to make true moral and just decisions in our advanced society.

Also I have tried to learn from both the Bene Gesserit and Mentat thought processes. The Bene Gesserit had politics and human advancement down to a T; but mentation is by far a much superior form of mental processing. I have tried to blend both of these aspects into a superior self standard.

All i have to say is that i think we as humans forget that we are animals at our base and core. killing is an animal instinct. know dont read this and think that i am agreeing with what happened i just think that when problems like this arise, especially at such a young age, we should work with these individuals and use that energy in a positive way. prison will only turn her into more of an animal. i think these young individuals should be paired with people with like trains of thought and taught how to control themselves.

reply to post by GulesVerne

i think these young individuals should be paired with people with like trains of thought and taught how to control themselves.

First of all, welcome to ATS!

Second, your statement doesn't make sense to me. Pair her with someone like her, and via that match up, try to teach self-control?
How does that work?

We have many 18 year olds who feel this same way as this 15 year old girl.They enjoy killing.

They won't get a trail though. They are called Soldiers. They are like trained dogs, they even kill on command. Now if you ask me, that's way more scary.

Originally posted by silo13

I don't know what to say - Big Pharma responsible for another killing?
The parents?
Society?
Or at 15, was Bustamante just a cold blooded psycho?

peace

edit on 8-2-2012 by silo13 because: spelling original from girls diary

Who gives a [snip]. Just shoot the [snip]. Some people are so FUBAR it's not even funny.

"The needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few. Or the one"

reply to post by ZacharyW

its equally as sickening for me to read comments coming from grown men/women saying things like "I hope this girl never see's the light of day and dies of old age in prison"

Why? I'd really like to hear why you have the opinion you do.

At 15 years old - far over the age of accountability - this murderess planned and executed the murder of 9 year old Elizabeth Olten.

The murderess lured little Elizabeth away from safety in order to perform atrocities against her until Elizabeth DIED! Just so she could experience, so she could 'know how it felt'!!!

9-year-old Elizabeth Olten's death was not painless!
9-year-old Elizabeth Olten's death was far from slow!
9-year-old Elizabeth Olten's death was HORRIFIC!

Think about it!!!

You ever seen a child in terror - their nose and mouth running uncontrollably because they're terrified? You ever seen a little girl wet herself because she's so afraid - but she can't move? You ever seen a little girl cry out for their MOMMY because all they want to do is GO HOME!

THAT IS ALL ELIZABETH WANTED WAS HER MOMMY! TO GO HOME! TO STOP HURTING!

But no. And why? Becasue a 15 year old wanted to 'see how it felt'. So she didn't let Elizabeth go home. She didnt' let Elizabeth go back to her Mommy. Nope. She just kept strangling her, she kept stabbing her, she just kept getting into the 'feelinggggggg' regardless of how hard Elizabeth cried and begged and only wanted to go home.

WAKE UP YOU!!!

And think about this too. KNOWING what she was about to do the 15 murderess DUG ELIZABETH'S GRAVE days before committing cold blooded murder. She knew days before. Days before. And when the murderess led authorities to that shallow pitiful little grave holding the lat remains of a TORTURED CHILD - the murderess showed no emotion, no remorse. Only after she was 'caught' and 'sentenced' did she show remorse.

And lest you forget... The murderess dug TWO graves. Only ONE was occupied.

What if this murderess lived near you and your friends and family? What if the second grave was meant for you? Or one of your loved ones? Would that change your mind?

True evil does exist. This girl is proof. Not that we needed proof.

peace

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix
We have many 18 year olds who feel this same way as this 15 year old girl.They enjoy killing.

They won't get a trail though. They are called Soldiers. They are like trained dogs, they even kill on command. Now if you ask me, that's way more scary.

That is total B.S. on so many levels.

First of all, the vast majority of soldiers do not take any pleasure in killing, and it often haunts them for the rest of their life.

Secondly, the ones that do enjoy their jobs, often enjoy it for noble reasons, like they are defending their country, and their families, and their fellow soldiers, and once they are in combat they want to win. They aren't just looking to kill people, they are looking to win a battle and go home!

Thirdly, the very few that do actually enjoy killing, are a little sick and twisted, but at least they have put their twistedness to a good cause in killing our enemies and eliminating threats to our safety. It is not in the slightest bit comparable to slowly and methodically murdering an innocent child and experimenting on the corpse just for curiousity's sake. Not comparable in the slightest way.

But, of course, if I had such a misguided view of the military, and if I said the same bone-headed things as you, then perhaps I would fear them as well, and with good reason!