42,000-year-old paintings : 'The oldest work of art ever' discovered, page 1

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ATS Members have flagged this thread 28 times

Topic started on 8-2-2012 @ 10:46 AM by isyeye

This is a huge find. These six paintings of seals created about 42,000 years ago are the only known artistic images created by Neanderthals. Finds like this may help change how many people have viewed the Neanderthals. While the paintings are not what you might call materpieces, they are still absolutely fascinating when you realize that they were created around 42,000 years ago.

A big

for the Neanderthals.

www.dailymail.co.uk...< br />

The world's oldest works of art have been found in a cave on Spain's Costa del Sol, scientists believe.

Six paintings of seals are at least 42,000 years old and are the only known artistic images created by Neanderthal man, experts claim.

Professor Jose Luis Sanchidrian, from the University of Cordoba, described the discovery as 'an academic bombshell', as all previous art work has been attributed to Homo sapiens

The paintings were found in the Nerja Caves, 35 miles east of Malaga in the southern region of Andalusia.
Spanish scientists sent organic residue found next to the paintings to Miami, where they were dated at being between 43,500 and 42,300 years old.

Neanderthals lived in the caves before becoming extinct about 30,000 years ago, leaving behind flint tools. Later, prehistoric Homo sapiens used the caves, painting on the walls and leaving pottery, tools and skeletons.

Neanderthals, who were known to eat seals, are thought to have died out from competition with Homo sapiens, although scientists recently suggested they were wiped out by climate change.

Previously the oldest works of art in the world were said to be 32,000-year-old images in the Chauvet Cave in southern France.

edit on 8-2-2012 by isyeye because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 8-2-2012 @ 10:51 AM by Jassu

reply to post by isyeye

Is it just me or does the above image look like the DNA double helix?

S&F for you OP

reply posted on 8-2-2012 @ 10:51 AM by smyleegrl

Incredible. Although the paintings didn't quite look like seals to me....maybe Picasso in a previous life?

Anyway, this find really does make me look at neanderthals differently. Guess I'm going to have to find a new insult for folks who get on my nerves~

S&F!

reply posted on 8-2-2012 @ 10:56 AM by JBA2848

This is one of the comments frpm the article. They say it better then I can.

A known fact is that Stalactites which are formed by fast flowing water rich in calcium carbonate and carbon dioxide, can grow anywhere from 0.12 of an inch to a full half inch per year. These cave drawing are said to be over 42,000 years old. Now do the math. Are we to believe these drawing "STRETCHED" along with the 42,000 year growth of the Stalactites they were drawn on? At the least growth of these Stalactites at 0.12 of an inch per years, this particular one these drawing are on would have to be, at least, 420 feet long. Do the math. Now half that twice for thickness of it's growth and you get 105 feet long. While. also, in all these 42 thousands years these drawing have never lost their bright umber pigment color? Nor have they faded in all that time! Does any of this make sense to you. How could this be possible? Drawings that "Stretch"? Being a mural artist myself...I'm not buying it.

And thinking about that comment. The build up from the calcium would build a layer over the drawing as it aged. The drawing would be buried under the calcium over time and no drawing would be left to see.

reply posted on 8-2-2012 @ 11:12 AM by crazydaisy

Incredible find - I don't know if
it looks like seals but more like
fish. The pics are incredible -
thanks OP, I love this kind
of stuff. At one time in my
life I wanted to get into
archeology, the thrill of a
discovery such as this must
be some something.

edit on 8-2-2012 by crazydaisy because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 8-2-2012 @ 11:13 AM by Hessdalen

painting? rorschach-test...

reply posted on 8-2-2012 @ 11:14 AM by truthinfact

I am very confused?

These painting are in a Cave, and 40,000 years old?

We weren't supposed to have invented Fire at that point in time?

reply posted on 8-2-2012 @ 11:16 AM by reficul

reply to post by isyeye

wow,thats cool! didn't neandrthals have bigger brains than we do? scientists say if they were around today,they wouldn't look much different then we do! i think i know a few!

cool find though!

reply posted on 8-2-2012 @ 11:17 AM by Blackmarketeer

It's about the same time period as the 'oldest rock art' in Australia, Bird rock art could be world's oldestm at 40,000 years old, but there's a lot of room for error in that estimate as they admit. (they based that age estimate on the extinction of a bird species that is the subject of the rock art).

This is interesting to be sure, we never hear enough about Neandethal's artistry...

edit on 8-2-2012 by Blackmarketeer because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 8-2-2012 @ 11:17 AM by isyeye

reply to post by JBA2848

A known fact is that Stalactites which are formed by fast flowing water rich in calcium carbonate and carbon dioxide, can grow anywhere from 0.12 of an inch to a full half inch per year

Just because they CAN grow at that rate, doesn't mean that they all will, or do. For example...There is a cave where I live that I have been watching for over 30 years. There is one Stalactite that I watch closely and measure frequently, and it hasn't changed at all. It all depends on the water flowing in the area.

edit on 8-2-2012 by isyeye because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 8-2-2012 @ 11:19 AM by reficul

reply to post by reficul

i have one of the french cave paintings tattood on me! go figure eh! the more things change the more they stay the same!

reply posted on 8-2-2012 @ 11:25 AM by SoymilkAlaska

DNA! DNA!!!!! DNA!!!!!!!!!!!

reply posted on 8-2-2012 @ 11:33 AM by the2ofusr1

reply to post by JBA2848

Yea I think that only neanderthals could believe this one ...good catch ..peace

reply posted on 8-2-2012 @ 11:35 AM by DerepentLEstranger

reply to post by isyeye

awesome dude
you're on a roll re good threads

these works of art are a window into a lost world
[to paraphrase the title of an old star trek novel]
literally from an occult point of view!

F'd & S'd

reply posted on 8-2-2012 @ 11:37 AM by JBA2848

reply to post by isyeye

They are still growing. If you look at the pictures from the caxe you can see the water dripping off the bottom of the stalactites.

reply posted on 8-2-2012 @ 11:51 AM by isyeye

reply to post by JBA2848

It does look like there may be some water dripping from some of them. I'm just guess, as without being there to see for myself I can only speculate, the formation of newer stalactites (the ones with the paintings on them are stalactites because the are from the ceiling) may have diverted the water to the newer ones, and the larger ones with the paintings may not have had as much water moving across it....just a guess though.

reply posted on 8-2-2012 @ 11:57 AM by Nicolas Flamel

reply to post by truthinfact

We weren't supposed to have invented Fire at that point in time?

One of our common ancestors, Homo erectus invented fire at least 790,000 years ago if not earlier.

The article says these were seals, and they were probably monk seals:

If you turn the picture sideways, they do look more like seals:

This article also states they ate mollusks, dolphin, and fish as well as seals.

www.pnas.org...

Neanderthals may have been more like us then we previously thought.

reply posted on 8-2-2012 @ 12:01 PM by Ophiuchus 13

reply to post by isyeye

isyeye, I love reading up on the ancients of Earth and this is a interesting and cool find. I wonder if its a sign for a local fishing hole for they look like fish or some fish like creatue the top image not sure but it seem like eyes and fins are present.. Thanks fo rthe interesting read

reply posted on 8-2-2012 @ 01:12 PM by Nicolas Flamel

Originally posted by JBA2848
This is one of the comments frpm the article. They say it better then I can.

A known fact is that Stalactites which are formed by fast flowing water rich in calcium carbonate and carbon dioxide, can grow anywhere from 0.12 of an inch to a full half inch per year. These cave drawing are said to be over 42,000 years old. Now do the math. Are we to believe these drawing "STRETCHED" along with the 42,000 year growth of the Stalactites they were drawn on? At the least growth of these Stalactites at 0.12 of an inch per years, this particular one these drawing are on would have to be, at least, 420 feet long. Do the math. Now half that twice for thickness of it's growth and you get 105 feet long. While. also, in all these 42 thousands years these drawing have never lost their bright umber pigment color? Nor have they faded in all that time! Does any of this make sense to you. How could this be possible? Drawings that "Stretch"? Being a mural artist myself...I'm not buying it.

And thinking about that comment. The build up from the calcium would build a layer over the drawing as it aged. The drawing would be buried under the calcium over time and no drawing would be left to see.

Are you or the anonymous person you're quoting qualified geologists? Do you know the environmental conditions of that part of the cave? Do you know if the stalactite is not associated with, or merged with a stalagmite, possibly forming a column? You can't tell by the picture with the art on it.

I'm not sure where you're coming from. Are you a creationist, believe it's a hoax, or just want to derail this thread?

reply posted on 8-2-2012 @ 01:28 PM by smurfy

The story seems genuine enough and not sexed up by the mail. Some anthropological blogs on the story have written the story in english from the spanish, and it's just the same, although one said that the tested organic material that was found BESIDE the paintings, and thought to have been used in the paintings is charcoal.
As someone mentioned, it would be interesting if neanderthals ever painted Homo S, in some cave somewhere.

Some Stalactite info, Stalactites grow longer faster than they grow wider. It would be oversimplifying to say then, that the paintings would be stretched, without knowing any timescale for growth either way, and just how much longer this particular Stalactite is from the paintings.

edit on 8-2-2012 by smurfy because: Text.

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