So now the Canadian government backs torture

Well gee another ``surprise`` from our dear leader Harper.

/not really

CSIS may use intelligence derived from torture, Toews says

The federal government is defending itself after more information has come to light about its directions to Canada's spy agency to use information that may have been extracted through torture in cases where public safety is at stake.

The order represents a reversal of policy for the Conservative government, which once insisted the Canadian Security Intelligence Service would discard information if there was any inkling it might be tainted.

Opposition MPs seized on the news, saying it means the government is indirectly supporting torture.

Which it is.

The Harper government NEEDS TO FALL... PRONTO.

reply to post by Vitchilo

Dear Vitchilo,

Mr. Confused back here. I need your opinion on something. This story seems to be saying that if some country, say Xistan, tortures a prisoner, Canada can use that information in an emergency when it couldn't before.

Is the assumption that Xistan will stop torturing people simply because Canada won't look at the results? Is that likely? And if the person is going to be tortured anyway, why not spread the info around to anyone who wants to know? Isn't the problem with Xistan and not Canada? Put pressure on Xistan to not torture people.

Anyway, I know you'll be able to straighten me out.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


Well this is a first step towards accepting torture in Canada. They start with that and then, ``for emergency that WE determine, we can torture suspects``.

And they say that ``information obtained through torture``... could be anywhere... the US, Syria, Iran, Guantanamo...

A SANE and DECENT country doesn't do that kind of stuff.

And it's well known torture ALWAYS gives back bad information. It's been proven tens of millions of times in history.

reply to post by Vitchilo

Dear Vitchilo,

Ok, thanks. I'll accept the slippery slope argument. It makes some sense to me. But I'm not sure about the "always gives false information" idea. If that is true, what is any government's motivation for using torture? Just for fun, to see people squirm? Somebody in the governments of the world must believe that torture works at least sometime, or nobody would bother to use it. Or am I missing something?

With respect,
charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


Dear charles,

The slippery slope argument is a logical fallacy.

Regards,
Tsukilunar

reply to post by TsukiLunar

Dear TsukiLunar,

Thank you, I appreciate you pointing that out for me. I'm not as knowledgeable about logical fallacies as I'd like to be.

I was thinking outside the realm of cool, clear, reason, and inside the murky swamps of human life. Let me give you an example. A government agency lives to increase it's size and power. It tries to find new responsibilities to hire new staff to meet. No agency ever says "I think we've done our work, boys, let's go home, we're out of a job."

Also consider a boyfriend and girlfriend. The boyfriend will attempt some trifling intimacy on the first date, but every date after that he will try for more intimacy.

You are right, the slippery slope is not a good logical argument, but I think it is sometimes a fair description of how people behave.

Anytime you get a chance to check on me, I would welcome it. you can teach me a lot.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by Vitchilo


Hate to break it to ya, but the Harper government is the same as the government under any other talking head. Seriously, we get the same policies time after time and yet, still most Canadians go "Oh damn that Harper!", but before him it was "Oh damn that Chretien!" When are people gonna bloody clue in and figure out that the whole game is rigged. I know. Wishful thinking.

reply to post by xXxinfidelxXx


Totally, eh!

And why the government uses torture from their own mouths :


These guys are sickos. That's what is running the government. Old sickos who should be in loony bins.

reply to post by charles1952


Dear charles,

Much of the content on this site relies on logical fallacies in order to push itself.

Logical Fallacies

Its an atrociously boring read so I recommend bookmarking the page and just read one article at a time whenever the mood strikes. Before I knew it, I had read each one three times and completely memorized it.

Let me sum up Vitchilo auguement here.

Well this is a first step towards accepting torture in Canada. They start with that and then, ``for emergency that WE determine, we can torture suspects``.

Slippery Slope

The Slippery Slope is a fallacy in which a person asserts that some event must inevitably follow from another without any argument for the inevitability of the event in question. In most cases, there are a series of steps or gradations between one event and the one in question and no reason is given as to why the intervening steps or gradations will simply be bypassed. This "argument" has the following form:

# Event X has occurred (or will or might occur).
# Therefore event Y will inevitably happen.

He clearly opens with a line of fallacious thought. Its not a good sign.

A SANE and DECENT country doesn't do that kind of stuff.

I can make a case for this line to be at least two logical fallacies. Its hard to choose.

1.Appeal to Fear

2.Begging the Question

Look those up in the link.

And it's well known torture ALWAYS gives back bad information. It's been proven tens of millions of times in history.

This is just an outright lie. While it is true that torture does produce a lot of bad info. Some legit Intel comes through and is utilized. I am not sure if that justifies its use or not, but certainly it has produced results.

Best wishes,
Tsukilunar

reply to post by Vitchilo


Was about to make a thread about this and search showed me you already did.

I am surprised that there isn't much more response to this news than this. Are we the only ones realizing that Puppet Harper is intently bringing this country down???

Where is the Peace Keeping Canada that I grew up in???

But it's fine. Let's all let Harper enjoy his majority and destroy whatever is left of the good foundations that we were raised upon.

"But instead of moving forward, this government is moving Canada backwards. The public safety minister has directed CSIS to use information that is extracted through torture. As long as there is a market for information derived from torture, torture will exist. Why is this government getting Canada into the torture business?"

Read more: www.ctv.ca...

Cause they can. And it seriously makes me sick. Dick Cheney must be about to be promoted to God status in this (once) a great land of ours.

S&F. When will enough be enough??

Tries to pick up shattered pieces of broken dreams. Canadians have always been our betters in the "how to treat others" category of life, now look at you. We have corrupted you . Nooooooooooo! This sounds like sarcasm but I really mean it, seriously. I love Canada and this makes me sad.

Interesting and shameful.

Canada is a signatory of the U.N. Convention Against Torture.

Wiki

reply to post by aorAki

Would you explain to me how this violates the convention against torture? If it does, I'll get right on the phone to my Canadian family members and demand a protest from them.

They might as well just annex to the USA officially now and get it over with, since Harper is trying to turn Canada into USA Jr.

Originally posted by Iamschist
Tries to pick up shattered pieces of broken dreams. Canadians have always been our betters in the "how to treat others" category of life, now look at you. We have corrupted you

. Nooooooooooo! This sounds like sarcasm but I really mean it, seriously. I love Canada and this makes me sad.

It seems like they are in general becoming more of the 'law and order' society America is, unfortunately. For example most people in Vancouver wanted the hockey rioters thrown in prison. It's very upsetting, I used to really admire how forgiving, tolerant and devoted to human rights the Canadian people and government were.

You've got information that could possibly save many lives.

You find out that this information was obtained through the use of torture.

Would you use it to save lives or just pretend that you don't have it and then watch people die?


I don't see this as condoning torture. I see this as making the best of a bad situation.

Originally posted by TsukiLunar
reply to post by charles1952

 

Dear charles,

The slippery slope argument is a logical fallacy.

Regards,
Tsukilunar

Not always. It's kind of like 'y' as a vowel, sometimes it's a fallacy, sometimes it is a good argument.

Originally posted by Wildbob77
You've got information that could possibly save many lives.

You find out that this information was obtained through the use of torture.

Would you use it to save lives or just pretend that you don't have it and then watch people die?


I don't see this as condoning torture. I see this as making the best of a bad situation.

The problem is torture has been shown to not work. People can lie you know.

reply to post by lampsalot


I agree.

If tortured, people may say anything just to get it to stop.

However, the conundrum is what do you do with information obtained by torture. Do you ignore it? Then if people die, it's your fault.

Do you check it out? If you do, does that mean that you condone torture?

Originally posted by Wildbob77
reply to post by lampsalot

 

I agree.

If tortured, people may say anything just to get it to stop.

However, the conundrum is what do you do with information obtained by torture. Do you ignore it? Then if people die, it's your fault.

Do you check it out? If you do, does that mean that you condone torture?

I would say no, the damage is already done. But any info obtained by torture has to be looked at with extreme skepticism.