Can someone please help me understand this Israel stuff?

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posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 01:09 PM
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First...this is not intended to be an inflammatory question at all. I'm truly not trying to start any trouble. This is a serious question, as I am completely ignorant in the subject. I'd prefer participants to be unbiased, however, based on what I've read here the last few days, I doubt that'll happen.

I'm just trying to understand why so many people / countries are vehemently pro/anti Israel...Is it mainly religion? Is it over land? Why is the United States so heavily involved? What, exactly is Zionism or a Zionist?Why is Israel allowed to have an undisclosed amount of nuclear weapons...heck...secretive nuclear program in general, but as far as I know, the US would freak out if anyone else did that?

These are honest questions I'd like answered. I'm not a student of any religion, so I really don’t know much in that regard.

Can someone at least point me in the right direction as to where I could find unbiased information?

I don’t mind reading long drawn out informative posts or links...as long as they are unbiased. So please, help enlighten me.




posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 01:16 PM
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reply to post by Juston
 


Oh don't worry I'm sure you'll be getting plenty of replies. It seems like everyone loves to beat the war drum, not just the Elites. I look forward to the information that will be presented. Great thread!



posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 01:19 PM
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reply to post by Juston
 


You really won't find any unbiased information about it these days. Personally, I'm anti-Israel, simply due to historical events.

However, I would suggest you ignore me and anyone else on here and instead head to your local library and have a read up on the events just after WW2 and the relocation of the Jews, 1947/8 and the partitioning of Palestine, the British Mandate, etc.

I say library because i would never trust the crap the internet spews forth. While a library is not as "quick" and "easy" as the webbernets, it's so much more valuable and i would trust that info more than what any of us jokers on here tell you.

Essentially - make your own opinions based on a varied reading list of historical books. Not Wikipedia.


EDIT: btw, S&F for asking a decent question with a genuine interest in the facts and not the hype/FUD
edit on 7-2-2012 by noonebutme because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 01:35 PM
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Yup. going to be interesting. My 5 cents, watch for bias because i am an Israeli.

1)Zionism:

an international movement originally for the establishment of a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of modern Israel

www.merriam-webster.com...
Webster dictionary is unbiased. Zionist is the one who is supporting Zionism. Not all Jews are Zionists and not all Zionists are Jews. There are different groups of Zionists , due to differences in religious/political/social issues.

2) Pro/Anti Israeli political map. Here it is very complex. Suggestion to read a few books is the optimal one. Soviet Union first supported Israel then was actively against, Russian federation was in the beginning friendly to Israel but now there is gradual cooldown - for example. Majority of Muslim counties do not recognise Israel and are actively against its existence. Some accept it but challenge its politics. Really, it is very complex. So it is religion and politics mixed together. Just as support of Israel by US/ EU is due to religious and political issues.

3)Nuclear thingy.
Probably the simplest to answer. Israeli nuclear program was developed during cold war.NATO did not object to ally in Middle East with nukes plus inner influence on US by pro-Israeli groups meant that opposition to Israeli nuclear program was minimal. If Israel was going to start nuclear program now it would not be allowed - at least in my opinion.



posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 01:54 PM
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Simple WW2 happened, Britain and America take Palestinain land to give Jews a home, Jews steadily take more and more of the land, segregate the Palestinians, build a wall, steal their water. Ethnically cleanse area, get shocked when Palestinians get annoyed and start bombing them back. Israelis bomb Palestinians with white phosphorus including UN aid bank while systematically starving all Palestinians through blockades.
These days Israel acts more and more like the country that tried to wipe them out, wants to desperately nuke Iran and if anyone disagrees them are labeled anti Semitic and have strange men with long curly sideburns chase them down the street. That's about the long and short of it, some quick war happened in between and their is an issue over religion and a rock but it never really comes up



posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 01:56 PM
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I never used to understand any of it either until i read a little history on the subject. The Israel/ Islam hatred has been goin for thousands of years (Israel and Judah vs the Babylonians) literally but then got even more serious in after ww2 where the Rothschilds and other Zionists funded the relocation of the jews. They took the land away from the Palestinians and massacred thousands in the process. There are still taking land away from the Palestinians today. The Zionists are literally the Zealots of the bible which were terrorist back then, and in my opinion still carry out the that same agenda today!

I do not have anything against Jews but Zionist are the problem. The more history i do the more i get a bad vibe from them.

The US should stay away from Israels games their regime is very secretive and deceitful throughout the past 60 years. Though its easier said than done cause most of the largest Bankers around the world are Jewish/Zionist Rothschilds, Warburgs etc....



posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 01:58 PM
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Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
Really, it is very complex. So it is religion and politics mixed together. Just as support of Israel by US/ EU is due to religious and political issues.


Okay...So our (The US) heavily invested interest is all "due to religious and political issues"?

That is what I assumed. And it doesn't really make me comfortable, or sound sensible. I'll explain why...hopefully someone can correct me if my line of thinking is incorrect.

I think its silly to put too much trust into an "ally"...Especially if part of that alliance is for either mutual or individual political reasons. Who's to say that once Israel's goals are reached they won't snub the United States in some way....Kinda like when we helped the Afgans in the 80's or whatever.

And religion...The United States is built on Christian values right? And Israel is Jewish? How does that serve the interest of America? Again...I'm pretty ignorant on religion...so maybe I'm missing or misinterpreting something.

reply to post by On the level
 


Yeah...thats what I hear. But why is America so heavily involved? Why do we care so much?



posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 02:07 PM
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Because the Jewish money particularly the Rothschild dynasty drove foreign policy in the US and still does, America will always be financially tied and feel be holding to Israel. I firmilly believe that Mossad was heavily involved in 9/11 as since then America has systematically taken apart its neighbours.



posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 02:08 PM
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Originally posted by Juston
Yeah...thats what I hear. But why is America so heavily involved? Why do we care so much?


Some would say because of the large and often very prosperous Jewish communities in America. Many of which emigrated to the US during WW2 to escape the Nazis, as well as afterwards looking for a new life. Some argue they are now in positions of heavy political and corporate influence so they are, in some ways, "looking after their own".

But again, that's my take on it. I'd still say go and check out the library first and foremost.



posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 02:15 PM
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reply to post by Juston
 




I think its silly to put too much trust into an "ally"...Especially if part of that alliance is for either mutual or individual political reasons. Who's to say that once Israel's goals are reached they won't snub the United States in some way....Kinda like when we helped the Afgans in the 80's or whatever. And religion...The United States is built on Christian values right? And Israel is Jewish? How does that serve the interest of America? Again...I'm pretty ignorant on religion...so maybe I'm missing or misinterpreting something.

I am not an American neither Christian so take it with grain of salt.
The way i understand the religious aspect there should be second coming of Christ and all Jews who refused the teachings the first time would become Christians and the world will be big happy place. Thus the support.
Political - well, in politics nothing is clear and here is no white or black. So who knows. What i understand is that Israel is still regarded as closest US ally in Middle East. I think that it is justified - look at what happened in Egypt and Lybia for example. I can 100% tell you that in Israel it is impossible. So country is more stable.
Also, Israel already tried to sit on 2 chairs and get closer to China and US spanked it and placed it in the corner until Israel said that we are sorry.
See, Israel gets financial aid from US. US defends Israel in UN. US is major Israeli trade partner. I bet that US will have easier time managing in Middle East without Israel as a possible base then Israel would without US support in UN.
So Israel is unlikely to leave US camp, at least this is how i see things.



posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 02:16 PM
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reply to post by Juston
 



And religion...The United States is built on Christian values right? And Israel is Jewish? How does that serve the interest of America? Again...I'm pretty ignorant on religion...so maybe I'm missing or misinterpreting something.


No, the United States is not built on Christian values, it is based on an 18th Century philosophical movement known as the Enlightenment. It believes that the people, not a deity, is the source of laws' legitimacy. There are a number of Americans who believe in the literal truth of bible prophecy. They support Israel because they believe Israel must exist for the prophecies to come true. Ethnically Jewish Americans and Europeans are supportive of the idea of Israel, as a refuge from persecution, but often have political objections to the conduct of the Israeli government. America actually intervened against Israel during the Suez Crisis in the 1950's, but began to support it in 1967 as a counter-balance to Soviet influence in the region. There is no guarantee that the US government will continue to support Israel in the future.



posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 02:22 PM
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post removed because the user has no concept of manners

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posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 02:26 PM
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Prior to WW1 and WW2, wasn't there some heavy duty land investments in "Palestine" ?
(started late 1800's) ?

The old Turk/Ottoman Empire ruled at the time (before WW1).

What and who exactly "bought" land and how did the titles transfer to new owners ?
Were the original investors from different countries ?
How did the fact that England and the Ottomans were enemies in WW1 affect the land ownerships ?


Did new land owners have the money or were there "mortgages" or "leases" available.

After WW1, the Ottomans were "gone".

So who handled all the land title transactions until 1948 (Israel established) ?

And, how are land titles handled after 1948 between Israelis and Palestinians ?



posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 02:36 PM
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posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 02:40 PM
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You need to look at history and all related facts. Back at the begining of the 1900's before cars were popular and affordable when oil and gas first started . Oil was discovered in most of the middle east countrys before WW 1
.With WW I and WW II and increased auto production and demand the U.S. and england need to secure an access point to middle east oil supplys. So a strawman state was created . Look at a map of the area , ships have access from te Mediterraean Sea and the Red sea and both have access to the Suez Canal.
The creation of Israel for the jewish people was a front for a permanent access point to middle east oil.
How people view it is totally misleading .
Look up the 10 most oil producing countries.
Look up the 10 largest oil reserves.
Then look up when the oil was dscovered.



posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 02:51 PM
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reply to post by Juston
 


It has alot to do with religion but it also has alot to do with Zionist jews. It doesn't matter where you send those people they immediately begin taking over the region, which is why they have been exiled, hunted, persecuted and rejected for 2000 years all across europe. After WWII it was decided they would be given land in Palestine in what was formerly their territory; until their 2 failed revolts between 70 A.D. and 135 A.D. caused the Roman Empire to exterminate every jew they could find and enslave those they didn't kill.

So they bought some land from the Arabs, but it wasn't enough. They wanted everything that used to be theirs back, believing that God granted their ancestor Abraham and his decendents the 12 tribes of Israel that land forever in a covenant. In truth most modern jews don't give a crap about that, and being "jewish" has become their race or ethnicity when it was once a religion.

This thing between them and Iran is a pissing contest. If they were going to hit Iran they woulda done it by now because they worship at the Church of Pre-emptive Strike.

I myself am a christian but i do not support the willfull murder of anyone, i don't care who is doing it. I am not zionist. That land is no longer the "Holy Land". That entire region is cursed with the blood of the innocent and evil prevails there. That land has a very dangerous ability to get people killed for very stupid reasons.
edit on 7-2-2012 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 02:51 PM
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You might try reading A History of the Arab Peoples by Albert Habib Hourani. You will find most of what you are hearing is bunk. People will tell you Jews and Muslims have been at conflict for a very a long time and nothing could be further from the truth. The conflict between them is more modern and also more political and tends to use religion only as a tool. The land Israel curently has was for a long time a barren waste land with little to no population. In time Jewish settlers from Europe came and were welcomed by the few locals as they brought with them European farming methods and changed the entire region from a waste land to a fertile area. Ties between Muslim and Jew stayed close to a point where after WW1 the Arabs and Jews considered forming an alliance to drive out the French and British in a bid for independence. By the end of WW2 the arrival of masses of Jewish refugees and European withdrawl from the region the Arab states saw a weak target with a fast growing population on now valuable land they invaded. Some how Israel pulled out a win and gained the attention of the US looking for anti Soviet allies. And the rest as they say is history. The Soviet backed Arabs fought a series of losing proxie wars against the Western backed Israelis. After a series of defeats and with the Soviet Union failing most of the Arab states gave up the idea of warring with Israel and moved into the US camp. Outside of Iran nobody has any want for a fight with Israel anymore.

For the US Israel remains by far the most poweful and stable ally in the region and thus its continued ties. Not as exciting as Zionest plots and the NWO perhaps but interesting in its own right.



posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 02:52 PM
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Iran wants to kill them. they hate all jews and we must stop them. Israel is the victim of fanatical muslims who are willing to end the world. it is seriouse.

Israel never did anything to anyone and now they are being threatened daily by Iran on TV



posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 02:53 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 03:22 PM
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Israel has an issue with Iran only because thats what the U.S wants. U.S. oil intrests want access to the Caspian sea and the natural gas deposits and russia will not let that happen, and neither will China.
Hello WW 3.





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