The Danger of Microwave Ovens, page 3

reply to post by Arbitrageur

---

Well said. Yet again.

Honestly, anyone with a little ability to think analytically should have some serious doubts about some of that info. It is, however, completely true that microwaves heat by making the molecules vibrate faster. In fact, that's what heating is! I would argue that less nutrients are degraded as microwaves tend to have less temperature extremes than other cooking methods (think burning hot frypan).

I know this isn't exactly a rock solid source but a Google search immediately brought up this.
wiki.answers.com...

Denying ignorance is supposed to be about thinking for yourself and not blindly following the word of another. Instead we won't even spend 5 min to do some quick checks of our own?

reply to post by OZtracized

---

what say you to the WHO warning against cellphones, and links with cancer?

Originally posted by BBalazs
reply to post by OZtracized

---

what say you to the WHO warning against cellphones, and links with cancer?

a recent IEEE article answers it quite nicely.

IARC operates under a very clearly defined and rigid set of rules, based mostly on epidemiology data. These are statistical studies of human health, as related to some kind of exposure. At this point, there are dozens of epidemiology studies. The most famous ones are those of the Interphone series, mostly conducted in Europe. And these studies generally are negative. In fact, they're quite solidly negative except that some exposure conditions — namely people who use cellphones for more than ten years — seem to suggest a barely detectable increase in the likelihood of a couple rare kinds of tumor: gliomas (a malignant tumor) and acoustic neuromas (a benign tumor). IARC made their decision mostly on this basis. They don't look at the basic biophysics, and they look at animal studies, but only in a secondary way. And again, they didn't say that these fields do cause cancer, they say that the epidemiology is suggestive that something might be there, but the evidence falls short of actually demonstrating that fields do cause cancer. This is very different, say, from smoking and lung caner, where the epidemiology is extremely strong, and the animal studies are extremely strong.

IEEE article

reply to post by Hellhound604

---

so your denying one source, that scientific, AND WITH MANY STUDIES BEHIND IT with a viewpoint. An article by an amateur, based on his views. AN OPINION PIECE????? IS that the BEST YOU CAN DO?
That seriously WEAK.
DENY IT SCIENTIFICALLY.
TAKE APART THE STUDIES!
kudos.
besides go into ANY serious medical college or SPORTS Program, preferably medicinal, and everyone already know cellphones are harmful.


I will give you 1 thing. Evidence is somewhat inclusive.
My guess is that some people based on genetics or whatever are more suspectible to cancer or other illness from radiation.
So I think the subject should be studied further to close on in at risk subjects.
But to say it is totally without risk is silly imo.

Originally posted by BBalazs
reply to post by Hellhound604

---

besides go into ANY serious medical college or SPORTS Program, preferably medicinal, and everyone already know cellphones are harmful.

edit on 11-2-2012 by BBalazs because: (no reason given)

edit on 11-2-2012 by BBalazs because: (no reason given)

would you care to enlighten me on that? I wasn't aware of that fact.

reply to post by Hellhound604

---

jif you can't go to a college or medical school to check up on this info, read tim ferris.
he is a writter (4 hour body, 4 hour workweek)....this may seem like flimsy evidence, but just read it.
he is in fact very scientific.
but i also spend time in medical circles, and it is pretty common knowledge.
or i will reframe that....
as mentioned above, the mechanisms are unclear, but it for sure has some side effects, especially with fertility. it is pretty common to recommend removal of cellphone, and viola sperm count goes dramatically up. this is not proof fro cancer off course, but observational (very strong observational proof) that it is not a clear cut case.
I found a link to a video: www.dailymotion.com...

Originally posted by BBalazs
reply to post by Hellhound604

---

jif you can't go to a college or medical school to check up on this info, read tim ferris.
he is a writter (4 hour body, 4 hour workweek)....this may seem like flimsy evidence, but just read it.
he is in fact very scientific.
but i also spend time in medical circles, and it is pretty common knowledge.
or i will reframe that....
as mentioned above, the mechanisms are unclear, but it for sure has some side effects, especially with fertility. it is pretty common to recommend removal of cellphone, and viola sperm count goes dramatically up. this is not proof fro cancer off course, but observational (very strong observational proof) that it is not a clear cut case.
I found a link to a video: www.dailymotion.com...

edit on 11-2-2012 by BBalazs because: (no reason given)

ahhh, ok. Now I just wonder why EVERY doctor uses a cell phone, even in theatre

reply to post by Hellhound604

---

that a good question thats why i said go to medical school, or sports medicine, where they have all the up to date info.
i would presume those doctors keep up to date with the latest techniques, not research.

anyway, I was too harsh on you.
there is plenty of evidence either way, that cellphones cause cancer (you can find many studies on this), but also the opposite. it is inconclusive.
either way, my only input is that this should be studied further.
and if you have the opportunity put your cellphone is shielding case, very cheap and don't sleep next to it.
its an easy precaution to take.

reply to post by BBalazs

---

put it in a shielding case? That is the worst addvice you can give. Cell phones uses an adaptive power control, that means, the better the signal link between it and the base station, the lower is its power output. If you start shielding your cellphone, you are just telling your cellphone to put more power out.

All you need to do with cell-phones and microwave ovens is to use just a bit of common sense. I look at wonder with people walking with their cell-phones glued to their ears, and must spend at least half the day talking on their cell-phones. Just limit your cell-phone usage. If you work with high-power RF systems, you learn to limit your exposure time, the same as when you work with x-rays or radio-activity, but there is no reason to become totally paranoid about it.

The effect of RF on the human body has been fairly well studied, but it was limited studies. Now billions of people are exposed to RF fields from their cell-phones, and some people, instead of limiting their exposure, as logic would indicate, seem to spend like 20 hours a day glued to their cell-phones.


This article gives the international guidelines for RF exposure.
ICNIRP GUIDELINES FOR LIMITING EXPOSURE TO TIME‐VARYING ELECTRIC, MAGNETIC AND ELECTROMAGNETIC FIELDS (UP TO 300 GHZ)

reply to post by Hellhound604

---

one thing i want to add.
when i reviewed this stuff, you have to know one thing.
all those studies saying no link between cell phones and cancer are large scale observational studies.
all those studies establishing links, are test animals actually subjected to radiation levels.
i think you can see that the 2 type of studies are not on the same level as it where.


and yes, common sense will also do, i don't keep my cellphone eon me, or sleep next to it, so i don't have a shield, which is why i am not fully in the know as it were, so thanks!

Russia does allow microwave ovens. They were banned in Russia in 1976. But in 1986, Gorbachev’s program of economic and political restructuring overturned that ban. They are not very common however.

www.naturalnews.com...

Early warnings against microwaving mostly involved warming baby`s formula or stored mother`s breast milk. In 1992,Stanford research discovered that microwaving formula at low heat destroyed most of the nutrients. Furthermore, the researchers were shocked to find that over 90% of the disease protecting agents in mother`s breast milk were eliminated by microwave warming.

Russia`s Research

From 1957, Russia had conducted testing on radar microwave emissions and microwave oven cooking. The scientific conclusions resulted in emission restrictions for radar workers and a ban on microwave ovens in 1976.

cleanlivingclinic.wordpress.com...

This site has a lot of information on the negative uses of microwaving. IMO, best use your microwave as a place to grow organic mung bean and alfalfa sprouts.

•“Microwave cooking alters food enough to cause upon ingestion, structural, functional and immunological changes in the body.” “Microwaves transform the amino acid L-proline into D-proline, a proven toxin to the nervous system, liver and kidneys.” (The Lancet 1989)
•November 2003 – The Journal of Science and Food and Agriculture found that broccoli “zapped” lost up to 97% of the beneficial antioxidant chemicals it contains. By comparison, steamed broccoli lost 11% or less of it’s antioxidants.
•1992 “Comparative Study of Food Prepared Conventionally and in the Microwave Oven” Raum and Zelt – “Microwaved food contains molecules and energies not present in food cooked in the way humans have been cooking food since the discovery of fire.” “Naturally occurring amino acids have been observed to undergo isomeric changes as well as transformation into toxic forms under the impact of microwaves produced in ovens.

To date, the most compelling evidence damning microwaves comes from a study done by a Swiss food scientist, Dr. Hans Ulrich Hertel. So compelling was it in fact, that he not only lost his job but he and his colleague, Dr. Blanc were issued with a gag order by the Swiss Association of Dealers of Electro-apparatuses for Households and Industries and threatened with prosecution. In 1998 the court gag order was removed and the European Court of Human Rights held that the order prohibiting Dr. Hertel from declaring microwaved food dangerous to health was contrary to the right of freedom of expression. Compensation was also paid to Dr. Hertel.

In Dr. Hertel’s 1991 study the effects of microwaved food on the blood and physiology of the human body were observed. Blood samples were taken from several groups of volunteers immediately before and immediately after ingesting milk and vegetables (some taken raw, some cooked conventionally and some cooked in a microwave oven). The scientific conclusion showed clearly that microwave cooking alters the nutrients in food and cause changes in the participants blood that result in deterioration of the body. The findings are as follows:

•increased cholesterol levels
•increased leukocytes or white blood cells which suggests pathogenic changes in the body such as poisoning and cell damage
•decreased numbers of red blood cells
•decreased haemoglobin levels indicating anaemic tendencies
•production of radiolytic compounds (compounds unknown in nature)

Originally posted by BBalazs
reply to post by Hellhound604

---

so your denying one source, that scientific, AND WITH MANY STUDIES BEHIND IT with a viewpoint. An article by an amateur, based on his views. AN OPINION PIECE????? IS that the BEST YOU CAN DO?
That seriously WEAK.
DENY IT SCIENTIFICALLY.
TAKE APART THE STUDIES!
kudos.
besides go into ANY serious medical college or SPORTS Program, preferably medicinal, and everyone already know cellphones are harmful.

edit on 11-2-2012 by BBalazs because: (no reason given)

edit on 11-2-2012 by BBalazs because: (no reason given)

I will give you 1 thing. Evidence is somewhat inclusive.
My guess is that some people based on genetics or whatever are more suspectible to cancer or other illness from radiation.
So I think the subject should be studied further to close on in at risk subjects.
But to say it is totally without risk is silly imo.

edit on 11-2-2012 by BBalazs because: (no reason given)

IEEE: Institute of Electrial and Electronics Engineers is hardly an "individual", their studies are hardly amateur: on the contrary they are highly scientific.

IEEE defines what things electrical and electronic are and how the should work; they create the "standards" such things should adhere to.

Yep, they're amateurs.

reply to post by abecedarian

---

I have worked for 20 years on high-power microwave systems, and yes, I have lost a number of peers to brain cancer, but before anybody goes into a panic. The max power output for a cell phone is about 2W for a GSM phone and 3W for an analogue model, but that power is normally a lot lower, depending on how good the link is between your cellphone and the base station. The typical power output for a cell-phone base-station is in the region of 60W ERP (if I am not mistaken). Your typical microwave oven is about 500-750W inside the oven, but the limits for leakage to the outside of the oven is less than 5mW/cm. The systems what I worked on was in the region of 1 000 000W, and at those levels it becomes a serious health-hazard. It is like the difference between touching an AA battery-cell with your fingers, and touching an HV-transmission line.

Yes, I have several scars from RF burns, but that was part of my job. Chances were a lot higher being electrocuted by touching a HV circuit, than being cooked by RF.
The biggest health-risk from exposure to RF fields is that in high-levels it heats up tissue. Our bodies form quite an efficient antenna at around 70MHz if I remember correctly, but we are a very inefficient antenna at cell-phone frequencies (around 800MHz). You can read more about exposure to very high RF fields here.
hps.org...

I have linked earlier to the standard safety guidelines, but those guidelines were more in line if you are exposed to high-level RF fields. The WHO article was based on another article, from which I include the conclusion. They studied one type of tumor, an acoustic neuroma which is a benign tumor. NOTE : Somewhere the MSM articles got it wrong, as an acoustic neuroma is NOT cancer, but a benign tumor. Many laymen confuse a benign tumor with a malign tumor (i.e. cancer)

An acoustic neuroma is a slow-growing tumor of the nerve that connects the ear to the brain. This nerve is called the vestibular cochlear nerve. It is behind the ear right under the brain. An acoustic neuroma is not cancerous (benign), which means it does not spread to other parts of the body. However, it can damage several important nerves as it grows.

from the original article :

CONCLUSIONS: There was no increase in risk of acoustic neuroma with ever regular use of a mobile phone or for users who began regular use 10 years or more before the reference date. Elevated odds ratios observed at the highest level of cumulative call time could be due to chance, reporting bias or a causal effect. As acoustic neuroma is usually a slowly growing tumour, the interval between introduction of mobile phones and occurrence of the tumour might have been too short to observe an effect, if there is one.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

Originally posted by Hellhound604
reply to post by abecedarian

---

I have worked for 20 years on high-power microwave systems, and yes, I have lost a number of peers to brain cancer, but before anybody goes into a panic. The max power output for a cell phone is about 2W for a GSM phone and 3W for an analogue model, but that power is normally a lot lower, depending on how good the link is between your cellphone and the base station. The typical power output for a cell-phone base-station is in the region of 60W ERP (if I am not mistaken). Your typical microwave oven is about 500-750W inside the oven, but the limits for leakage to the outside of the oven is less than 5mW/cm. The systems what I worked on was in the region of 1 000 000W, and at those levels it becomes a serious health-hazard. It is like the difference between touching an AA battery-cell with your fingers, and touching an HV-transmission line.

I seem to remember a cell phone can hit ~4W PEP on analog / AMPS / GPRS / 2G TDMA, 3W PEP with GSM / CDMA (PCS), 2W PEP on UMTS/HSPDA and LTE. ANY "spread spectrum" technology like CDMA and it's derivitaves (WB-CDMA, HSPDA, LTE, etc) inherently reduce emissions at any one frequency simply because they spread transmissions ACROSS multiple frequencies.

A cell BTS can potentially hit ~100W PEP per sector, with most cells being 3 sectored, and a small portion being 2 or 4 sectored; sectorization depends on cell boundaries. Most cells operate at less than 50W PEP per sector due to cell density: adding more cells to increase coverage results in lower average output due to the smaller "footprint" an individual cell must cover; some locales limit output artificially- San Francisco, in many areas, limits a site to <25 WPEP output and thus have many single-cell (omnidirectional) "micro-sites" in their residential districts, and very few macro-cells, so to speak, restricted often to their tallest buildings and hills. For comparison, put a 55W lighbulb in the air and see what it illuminates- that's nearly analogous to the coverage of a micro-cell in San Francisco: you have to almost see it to talk with it. I've spent a few years in the area and have worked on many of them, and they have one of the highest cell densities in the country and some of the highest complaints of non-coverage.

Yes, I have several scars from RF burns, but that was part of my job. Chances were a lot higher being electrocuted by touching a HV circuit, than being cooked by RF.
The biggest health-risk from exposure to RF fields is that in high-levels it heats up tissue. Our bodies form quite an efficient antenna at around 70MHz if I remember correctly, but we are a very inefficient antenna at cell-phone frequencies (around 800MHz). You can read more about exposure to very high RF fields here.
hps.org...

Good points to bring up.
The OP however, was concerned about how MW (2.4GHz/2400MHz) causes cancer. Chances are though, the OP uses WiFi with a 4-5W output, unshielded, and an 800W microwave oven leaks less power than that.

I have linked earlier to the standard safety guidelines, but those guidelines were more in line if you are exposed to high-level RF fields. The WHO article was based on another article, from which I include the conclusion. They studied one type of tumor, an acoustic neuroma which is a benign tumor. NOTE : Somewhere the MSM articles got it wrong, as an acoustic neuroma is NOT cancer, but a benign tumor. Many laymen confuse a benign tumor with a malign[ant] tumor (i.e. cancer)

An acoustic neuroma is a slow-growing tumor of the nerve that connects the ear to the brain. This nerve is called the vestibular cochlear nerve. It is behind the ear right under the brain. An acoustic neuroma is not cancerous (benign), which means it does not spread to other parts of the body. However, it can damage several important nerves as it grows.

from the original article :

CONCLUSIONS: There was no increase in risk of acoustic neuroma with ever regular use of a mobile phone or for users who began regular use 10 years or more before the reference date. Elevated odds ratios observed at the highest level of cumulative call time could be due to chance, reporting bias or a causal effect. As acoustic neuroma is usually a slowly growing tumour, the interval between introduction of mobile phones and occurrence of the tumour might have been too short to observe an effect, if there is one.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

edit on 11/2/2012 by Hellhound604 because: corrected my link

Truth is, us in the industry can relate anecdotal and actual evidence to the contrary but those that want to believe otherwise won't be convinced... and use the fact we're "in the industry" as proof of the cover-up.

reply to post by abecedarian

---

thanks for correcting me on the cell output powers, I could just vaguely remember the power levels for cell-phone systems

As to the leakage of microwave ovens, it is limited by law to less than 0.005W!!!! which is nothing (except if you want to receive very small signals in that range, lol). Before you are allowed to sell equipment like microwave ovens, you must submit it to an internationally recognized (and audited) testing house, that will do all sorts of tests on it, to make sure it is safe. (of course, I have heard stories of a guy running a fast-food shop, that bypassed the interlocks on his microwave oven, and removed the door, just to do things quicker, and he lost his hands, but if you do things like that, you do deserve it).

As a RF engineer, I know that exposure to high-level RF fields have very serious health-concerns, but at the levels normal people get exposed to RF fields, they have nothing to be worried about, but I am still concerned about the people that I see talking on their cell-phones continuously. But that is just a personal feeling, based on my experience. If I was a cell-phone regulator, I would have forced in a law governing the continous use of a cell phone, like max. conversation length 10 minutes, thereafter you bar the celphone from making any voice-calls for 10 minutes (unless the person uses a hands-free kit), but that is my own personal gut-feeling. Remember, that using a cell phone next to your ear, or next to your nuts, will heat up your body, and your body needs time to get rid of that heat. (If I can remember correctly, I have read studies of about 1C rise in your brain after using your cell-phone for 20 minutes or so).

Originally posted by Hellhound604
reply to post by abecedarian

---

thanks for correcting me on the cell output powers, I could just vaguely remember the power levels for cell-phone systems

As to the leakage of microwave ovens, it is limited by law to less than 0.005W!!!! which is nothing (except if you want to receive very small signals in that range, lol). Before you are allowed to sell equipment like microwave ovens, you must submit it to an internationally recognized (and audited) testing house, that will do all sorts of tests on it, to make sure it is safe. (of course, I have hear stories of a guy running a fast-food shop, that bypassed the interlocks on his microwave oven, and removed the door, just to do things quicker, and he lost his hands, but if you do things like that, you do deserve it).

As a RF engineer, I know that exposure to high-level RF fields have very serious health-concerns, but at the levels normal people get exposed to RF fields, they have nothing to be worried about, but I am still concerned about the people that I see talking on their cell-phones continuously. But that is just a personal feeling, based on my experience. If I was a cell-phone regulator, I would have forced in a law governing the continous use of a cell phone, like max. conversation length 10 minutes, thereafter you bar the celphone from making any voice-calls for 10 minutes (unless the person uses a hands-free kit), but that is my own personal gut-feeling. Remember, that using a cell phone next to your ear, or next to your nuts, will heat up your body, and your body needs time to get rid of that heat. (If I can remember correctly, I have read studies of about 1C rise in your brain after using your cell-phone for 20 minutes or so).

edit on 11/2/2012 by Hellhound604 because: (no reason given)

edit on 11/2/2012 by Hellhound604 because: (no reason given)

I'm not going to comment about cell nuts and such.

I have done EME surveys and found that at comparable distances- 60 feet from the conductor / antenna, overhead powerlines exceed "safe" exposure level guidelines by 200-300%, compared to 25WPEP cell emissions in the PCS band being less than 50% of guidelines.

reply to post by abecedarian

---

I fully agree with you on the power lines. I get scared on behalf of the occupants when I see a house right underneath (or next to HT lines), and you can hear the coronal discharge coming from the pylons...

reply to post by Hellhound604

---

Granted overhead power lines span within the 10-250KVA range so it's no surprise they'd have such strong EM fields. The ones I mentioned above happen to be 100KVA, but there were also 3 of them.

What I haven't checked, is what are the EME levels eminating from standard household wiring at the typical 120/240VA range.

But anyhow, it's been proven that microwaved water does not affect plant growth, which contra-indicates the validity of the OP's post. One is more likely to contract cancer from walking about in the sunlight than one is to contract cancer from a cell phone or eating microwaved foodstuffs.

Pokemon discovered in Venezuela
  Posted 14 days ago with 47 member flags

89-Year-Old Man Develops Bladeless Bird-Friendly Wind Turbine
  Posted 11 days ago with 45 member flags

Amazing snowflake images that you have never seen before.
  Posted 14 days ago with 44 member flags

Energy Solutions THEY don\'t want you to know about
  Posted 14 days ago with 35 member flags

High speed video reveals the bizarre physics of an ordinary water droplet
  Posted 4 days ago with 32 member flags

Does this video show a working self propelled magnetic engine?
  Posted 7 days ago with 31 member flags

Viruses: alive or not?
  Posted 11 days ago with 30 member flags

NASA reveals secrets it has hidden on the Curiosity rover.
  Posted 17 days ago with 29 member flags

Newest topics, updated in real-time:

Newest topics getting flags, in real-time:

Newest topics getting replies, in real-time: