The Edge of Reality - Updated Report on the Illinois Police UFO case, January 5th, 2000.

What evidence, besides shaky eyewitness accounts, is there these craft ever reached such high speeds? People are very poor observers.

Why do you consider it shaky eyewitness testimony? Could you please divulge exactly what it was about the witnesses which causes you to believe their accounts were not accurate? Or are you using a generalization - since it's a UFO, it automatically becomes shaky evidence?

Especially considering several of the witnesses were police officers. Trained observers, moreso than your average witness.

I think witnesses could tell the difference between 53 mph (top speed of known blimps) or we'll say heck, 80mph.. because it was a super-secret stealth blimp with super technology behind it! One of the police officers who saw this flying by the road, called in because he thought a plane was about to crash or was in trouble. Others reported it moving much, MUCH quicker than your average blimp.. stealth or otherwise.

The size, silence and speed of these objects imo, is what pretty much nullifies the theory it was any governments secret tech. Black projects typically are not flown over public land as well, for obvious reasons. There is a reason they have huge amounts of uninhabited land to test these sorts of things. Maybe a pilot took it for a joy ride? Huge, silent craft moving at those speeds... we don't even begin to have the science behind the tech that would be necessary to make it a reality.

reply to post by karl 12


I live near the area. It was a huge story for about 10 minutes on the morning news and then it all stopped abruptly. News reporters spoke candidly to the police, who responded with certainty. Then it all halted.

If I recall, between the years 2000 and 2003 there were also "crop circle" type figures in the area. We drove out looking for them but found nothing (it is a huge area of vast cropland).

If you look at the area's geology, with large tracts of farmland interspersed with the Mississippi River, soaring bluffs, caves, then the Ozarks Mountains, it is easy to believe unusual things could appear and then hide.

Originally posted by Blue Shift
...yet each one of them describes something significantly different than the others...So either the fundamental configuration of the object changes, or the object is appearing differently to each officer due to their individual perceptions.

Actually, Blue, there does appear to be a not-uncommon phenomena where some observers see an object markedly different than what other witnesses see.

I've even read of UFO events where some observers can see the object, while others don't see anything. This isn't too unusual for humans: the early Americans actually couldn't see the European ships off shore, until they landed and made physical "contact."

You refer to each observer's "individual perceptions." Rather than jumping to the conclusion you make, that it's "a big problem," we need to accept that this may indeed be an effect during some sightings, and ask ourselves why this happens. Are some people more predisposed to viewing paranormal events? Is there some kind of connection between these craft and the brains of their witnesses?

Look at the cars driven by the infamous Men in Black. While we think of the classic Cadillac car as their vehicle of choice, in England they were observed driving Jaguars. And during the West Virgina strangeness leading up the Mothman sightings, there was a series of incidents where they drove Volkswagen Beetles. And their clothing? To me, it's as likely that their appearance was as subjective to each viewer, as that they actually had shiny black suits without a single wrinkle or crease in them.

And when Betty and Barney Hill saw their UFO, one of the crewmen appeared to be wearing a Nazi swastika armband. Were the occupants really Nazis, or did the Hills perhaps view the object and its crew through the subjective experiences of their lives (and as an interracial couple, the only creatures scarier to them than aliens were Nazis).

After seventy-plus years of ever-stranger observations, we should be ready to start accepting the more challenging possibilities.

BTW: A "Stealth Blimp" as an answer to this event? Not bloody likely.

And when Betty and Barney Hill saw their UFO, one of the crewmen appeared to be wearing a Nazi swastika armband.

Is this just shoe-horned into the account by the "Nazi UFO" group?

What about the fact that they had green skin and were 5 ft tall?

Are you suggesting that aliens have been recruited by the Nazis?

Are you suggesting that aliens have been recruited by the Nazis?

Not at all.

I'm suggesting that what they saw were not Nazis, but something that terrified them, something that represented to them an evil, oppressive force. They simply couldn't factor in the reality they were witnessing, so either their brains camouflaged what they were seeing with elements that were familiar to them, or the entities themselves reached into their conscious (and perhaps subconscious) to pull out that image for them.

There are other instances where UFO events are involved with objects that the observers "expected" to see. Irving T. Sanderson, the paranormal researcher who helped school a younger John Keel, once witnessed a UFO over the Ohio River morph before his eyes into a small Cessna airplane. Keel was there, and saw the same thing.

Interestingly, their wives were both there, and saw nothing. No UFO, not even the Cessna, which was in plain sight.

This is relevant to the current discussion by offering an explanation of how multiple police officers were able to observe the same object in different locations, separated by only a short distance and a brief interval of time, yet come up with distinctly unique facets of the same triangular-shaped craft.

reply to post by karl 12

Nice post ,Iv never seen this and is very creditable account.I have a first cousin that seen the same type craft the same night(early morning),month,year,in central Arkansas...now I believe him because I called him and confirmed the date.
Stars and flags for your post!!

Originally posted by fleabit

Why do you consider it shaky eyewitness testimony? Could you please divulge exactly what it was about the witnesses which causes you to believe their accounts were not accurate? Or are you using a generalization - since it's a UFO, it automatically becomes shaky evidence?

Eyewitness testimony has always been unreliable, that's why you get conflicting accounts of the same event. I have no doubt the truck driver and the officers saw a big triangular object moving through the air. But remember, the officer didn't actually see the object move at high speed. That part is a guess based on observations (perceived time and distance) we know to be unreliable. In my opinion a good part of the UFO mystery has been created by researchers that take such observations at face value and present it as the truth. Good researchers put a disclaimer on things that can't be verified and offer possible scientific explanations why an observation might be wrong.

Thanks for all the replies and for those who haven't viewed the video, testimony from the two different police officers about the object's flight characteristics can be seen here at 8:20 and here at 1:10 -the UFO speed calculated in the initial report states a rate of about 3600MPH and there's also an interesting paragraph which mentions the National Institute of Discovery Science has 'reassessed' their original hypothesis that black triangles originate from the United States Department of Defense, stating:

"The behavior of these Triangular aircraft does not conform to previous patterns of covert deployment of unacknowledged aircraft"

Whatever the case, anything has got to be better than debunker's Philip Klass opinion that the object was the planet Venus:


Philip Klass' Claims Illinois Officers Saw Planet Venus



Researcher Omar Fowler is a pretty knowledgeable chap when it comes to flying black triangle reports and, for those that are interested, he gives a good interview in this video about unexplained incidents in the U.K. and U.S. -Nick Pope from the British MOD also made this relevant statement about the objects:

"We were asking the Americans, 'Are you operating a prototype aircraft in our airspace?' That, of course, was nonsense. You simply would not do that from a diplomatic and political point of view. It would undermine the entire structure of NATO if you were putting things through someone else's airspace, particularly a close ally, without seeking the proper diplomatic clearance. But we had to ask. And the Americans, having had similar reports, I guess, since the Hudson Valley wave [New York state, mid-1980s], had been quietly asking us if we had some large, triangular shaped object that could go from 0 to Mach 5 in a second. Our response was that we wished we did. This was the bizarre situation: that we were chasing the Americans, and the Americans were chasing us."

Nick Pope - Head of the "UFO desk" at Air Secretariat 2-A, British Ministry of Defence

Cheers.

Originally posted by zarp3333

I found the most interesting part to be the courage and maturity displayed by the officers who at HuGE risk to their careers, spoke honestly and candidly. Contrast that to the more common reaction of outright laughter, derision and conditioned ignorance displayed by somebody at the police station command center heard in the background.

Zarp3333, couldn't agree more with your comments there about 'conditioned ignorance' and the courage displayed by the police officers in reporting this incident -there have been quite a few cases down the years where police personnel have been ridiculed, hounded and harrassed for submitting UFO reports, probably one of the most notable ones (as mentioned by Xpoq47) was the Portage County incident from 1966 and Easynow has made an excellent thread about the case below if you've not seen it already:

Repercussions:

The men who were involved in this incident suffered for it. They were hounded by the media and ridiculed by others. Buchert and Neff stopped talking about the incident to anyone. Panzenella received so many phone calls about the incident that he finally had his phone disconnected. Huston quit the police department and moved to Seattle, Washington, where he became a bus driver, changing his preferred name from Wayne to Harold. Spaur's life was ruined. He was hounded even worse than the others. He began to have personal problems that culminated in his arrest for the assault and battery of his wife. He turned in his badge and made a meager living as a painter. His wife divorced him.

Spaur said:

"If I could change all that I have done in my life, I would change just one thing. And that would be the night we chased that damn thing. That saucer."

*Above BlueBook* - Ohio UFO Chase , Portage County April 17, 1966

There are also many, many other police UFO cases listed here and, although I realise police officers are just normal human beings, there are some interesting points raised in the article below about the 'credibility and reliability' of police UFO witnesses who are highly trained and experienced in reporting what they see. This 1975 FBI briefing document from Dr J Allen Hynek also states "experience definitely shows that the best reports, those with the greatest information content, come from technically trained, professional people, especially law enforcement personnel.”

The Police Officer UFO Witness

Why is the police officer considered a special witness to UFOs? Why are police officers important to the investigation of UFOs?

link

Cheers.

Originally posted by chaztekno

Originally posted by draknoir2
reply to post by karl 12

 

My father witnessed the same thing in the same area around the same time, as did a couple of close friends. My father is retired military and a retired police officer and not prone to exaggeration. Personally I think it's very real, and very terrestrial. Stealthy airship with exotic propulsion would be my guess.

No blimp can do 7200 miles per hour.mph exotic engine or not, nice try for the 'its one of ours, dont worry folks' and your fathers credibility was never in doubt.

edit on 7-2-2012 by chaztekno because: (no reason given)

Where'd you pull that number out of? You clock one with a radar gun or something?


What my father and friends witnessed certainly did not travel at such an absurd speed, nor would they have had any way to precisely measure it's velocity. Oh, and they have no idea what it was, which is why I went to the trouble of posting "Personally I think it's", so your snarky response says more about your preconceptions and poor reading comprehension than anything else.

i believe these guys i think what they saw was real wheather it was ufo or super secret airforce test flight of some radar deflecting plane its legit

What's most interesting is the amount of government agencies which have accessed the report.

I kick myself every time I hear about this case. I lived in Belleville IL , which is in St Clair county, smack dab in the middle of all this for 20 years and had just moved to Maryland 2 months before this happened. It's cases like this though that have me convinced we are being visited.

Originally posted by TemplarScribe

After seventy-plus years of ever-stranger observations, we should be ready to start accepting the more challenging possibilities.

Well said, currently compiling a post along those same lines.

Eyewitness testimony has always been unreliable, that's why you get conflicting accounts of the same event. I have no doubt the truck driver and the officers saw a big triangular object moving through the air. But remember, the officer didn't actually see the object move at high speed. That part is a guess based on observations (perceived time and distance) we know to be unreliable. In my opinion a good part of the UFO mystery has been created by researchers that take such observations at face value and present it as the truth. Good researchers put a disclaimer on things that can't be verified and offer possible scientific explanations why an observation might be wrong.

Ok, let's say Officer Martin miscalculated. Quite possible. He estimated that once it sped up, it was going 80 to 100 mph. Much faster than any conventional blimp, but maybe we have stealth blimps that can knock out that speed. But maybe it was going slower. Of course, he was a police officer - part of their job is estimating how fast something is going. They do this on a daily basis. But.. mabye he was wrong.

But then there was Officer Barton, who DID see the object accelerate so quickly, he could barely track the movement with his eye. I'd say that was a lot faster than 100 mph, and much faster than any blimp could go. So, yes.. an officer did see it moving at high speeds.

Of course, they saw it do other things.. like pivoting in place without changing altitude to change directions. A very un-blimp-like thing to do.

Saying they were "shaky" witnesses because humans are unreliable as witnesses is ridiculous imo, especially when an object moves so fast, the eye could not track the movement. That is pretty clear-cut.. do you agree? I personally don't feel we have any secret tech that allows a craft that is 75' wide and 45' long to move silently, accelerate at those speeds, and maneuvar as it did. I don't think people understand the technology required for that. NO one has that on this planet, not yet. The amount of energy required to keep something silent, yet aloft, and then accelerate as it did would be mind-boggling.

If by "shaky" you mean they were lying, ok.. not much I can say about that.

In the first vid at 11.14 you see the shape of the craft.
About a month ago I saw an aircraft flying low altitude directly above and past me. It had the exactly same shape - triangular and similar edges in the back, just without the lights. When it was past me i could see it being flat.
At that time i thought it might be some drone, like the beast of kandahar. It was so close, about 100 meters above, i could see its grey color despite it being in the night sky. It had no lights at all and it was absolutely silent.
I never found my interpretation conclusive, however. If it was a regular triangular aircraft, it would be American. I dont know whether these cross Switzerland - i would guess, usually they do not. It was so low altitude, that it just doesnt make sense - surely these would fly high altitude except for takeoff and landing. Moreover, it was right over the city - because of the regular approach of the helicopters from the nearby hospital (about 1km) its propably prohibited to fly low. Also, it was silent, even if the aircraft would have been as quite as a car, i should have heard it due its close proximity. It had no position lights on, respectively no lights at all.
I really dont know what it was. The only rational explanation is onewing aircraft on a strange, probably prohibited flight manoveur. Just felt the urge to share - without the intentions to discuss it any further.

Just add this link about a new witness to to an excellent karl 12 thread on one of the top ten.

Apologies if the link has already been added to another thread on Illinois 2000.

www.examiner.com...

reply to post by draknoir2


No, 6 miles in 3 seconds = 120 miles/minute. 120 miles/minute = 7200 miles per hour.

Originally posted by Lowneck
Just add this link about a new witness to to an excellent karl 12 thread on one of the top ten.

Apologies if the link has already been added to another thread on Illinois 2000.

www.examiner.com...

Good call on the new Mufon witness testimony from the Fire Chief mate - very interesting reading.

MUFON Case 40861.

"He stated that he was returning from a house fire in St. Clair, MO, at approximately 3 a.m. and was on I-44 Highway approaching Union, MO, when he heard law enforcement on the county police band radio discussing an unidentified object.The dispatcher said, 'Oh it's this Roswell stuff again' and that police were chasing the object."

"As the witness approached 50 Highway and 47 Highway he saw a large, triangular craft with lights pointing down over the Wal-Mart that was traveling at approximately 25-30 mph. The witness said that the very bright lights on the object pointed downward, but did not light up the ground, seeming to stop approximately 100 feet up.The craft was approximately 500 above the ground."

The Illinois 2000 case is also covered in this show along with similar UFO incidents like the Holland and Trumbull County case.

Police tapes, video, and the testimony of a radar operator suggest something very strange was seen over Ohio in 1994; Holland, Michigan in 1994; and Millstadt, Illinois in 2000.

Cheers.

Update on case from February this year:

IMPORTANT UPDATE - JANUARY 5, 2000 ILLINOIS UFO CASE

ILLINOIS MAN REPORTS SIMULTANEOUS SIGHTING OF TWO UFOs ON MORNING OF JANUARY 5, 2000

link