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Murder someone else, or be tortured by them?

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posted on Feb, 6 2012 @ 10:21 PM
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Here is the question:

It is morally permissible for victims to use deadly force as a deliberate response to repeated domestic violence?

My opinion:

I ask this because of a recent debate I got into with someone on the forensics team. She ended up winning some tournament, then she came to me for further conversation on the matter. Though I am not in debate, I do enjoy doing it and would consider myself pretty good.

The question of morals comes into play. Do you take another's life in order to better your own? Do you deprive someone the chance to change and evolve as a person, just so that you can live better in an immediate sense? I personally believe that it is morally permissible. In my opinion, if someone is being violent towards you domestically (and we assume it is not on occasion but frequently and without purpose), then you have every right to try to make them stop and change, yet it usually is a futile attempt to do so. In this case you must examine which moral outweighs another...

If I am being tortured, in a sense my humanity is being deprived. I have no ability to express who I am without being beaten at home. Then, trying to escape, if I was to leave my own house in bruises and broken spirits, I do not think I would be able to function outside in the real world. Basically, at home I cannot be myself, nor away from it. So would I have the right to kill someone to retake myself? I believe you should be able to, as your existence is in just as much question as the abuser, and should logically be able to hold the importance of your life above another's, assuming there is equal weight of situation.
edit on 6-2-2012 by PhysicsAdept because: (no reason given)




posted on Feb, 6 2012 @ 10:22 PM
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Originally posted by PhysicsAdept
Here is the question:

It is morally permissible for victims to use deadly force as a deliberate response to repeated domestic violence?


Or they could leave.



posted on Feb, 6 2012 @ 10:25 PM
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in self defense, if they felt their life was threatened

otherwise, call the cops or leave



posted on Feb, 6 2012 @ 10:27 PM
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Legally permissable and morally permissable are not the same.
Please seek help and assistance if you are being abused!
Please~ a better way is possible . . . .



posted on Feb, 6 2012 @ 10:27 PM
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reply to post by PhysicsAdept
 


Maybe not domestic violence, as there are other avenues in which to escape; but if it was a question of 'me dying over them dying', i would choose the later. I wouldn't do it because I was a murderer, but because I value life, when the person who is trying to kill me obviously doesn't.



posted on Feb, 6 2012 @ 10:28 PM
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reply to post by PhysicsAdept
 


I think on a deep philosophical level, you're asking if in the threat of confrontation one should martyr themselves in the name of peace or not? You always do have the option of flight though!



posted on Feb, 6 2012 @ 10:29 PM
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reply to post by PhysicsAdept
 


If it is impossible for them to leave, then yes. How many people have been killed after reporting the abuse to the "authorities"? I'm sure it is very frustrating for the police that want to protect the people being abused.



posted on Feb, 6 2012 @ 10:30 PM
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edit on 6-2-2012 by PhysicsAdept because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 6 2012 @ 10:32 PM
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reply to post by LittleBirdSaid
 


Oh, sorry, I see where this could get ugly. Please refer to my later post... It was merely a debate question. Thanks for the concern though.

Also, I ask you, where do you stand then morally? Because it is true that murder is harder to justify in court of law than in state of mind.
edit on 6-2-2012 by PhysicsAdept because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 6 2012 @ 10:35 PM
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reply to post by theubermensch
reply to post by BadBoYeed
reply to post by FinalAccount2008

I think I was more or less assuming these victims.. .though perhaps physically capable, cannot actually escape. Perhaps they do not know how to, it is a question of moral, not situational capability if that makes sense.



posted on Feb, 6 2012 @ 10:46 PM
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I think that when it comes to self defense if your life is immediately threatened, anything goes. in the case of domestic violence, again, if your facing an eminent threat to your life, you have the right to defend yourself. but if its mistreatment etc, I think all other avenues should be explored.



posted on Feb, 6 2012 @ 10:52 PM
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it is ridiculous to assume you can escape...

I have dealt with a lot of these issues... there is no running...

The cops and others turn a blind eye to the issue...

so no... it is insane to suggest flight... it is an impossibility.... the odds are against the victim...


completely, to run is is to invite death... and further punishment...

The best way is calculated self defense...

the abuser, by the time it is for your life, deserve death... it has gone on for years... others look away or claim it is not legally feasible to do anything... their is no such thing as a one time thing...

I am not allowed by t and c to advocate calculated murder so I substituted it with the idea of self defense...

I have had to deal with these issues when I was in the military... nasty aint the word for it... the worst was case of an abused husband...

I had to tell the husband if they loved you, like they said they do, they would have just left you... no excuses just by...

and then they would have left...


no, I vote total self defense with no quarter given...



posted on Feb, 6 2012 @ 10:54 PM
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I dont know that it would be moral to take someones life just because they are harming you daily for the simple fact that they are not taking your life. However, I think its fine to take someones life if they are repeatedly harming you and your life is in real danager. But there is a point when the choice is no longer in our hands. Like domestic violence for example. If someone is being abused like that then their fight or flight mechanism becomes activated and the choice is made by a innate instinct.


 
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posted on Feb, 6 2012 @ 11:11 PM
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For some reason i dislike these moral scenarios. Of course its ok to use self defense to save your life. I guess what i ultimatly dislike is these scenarios neven address true moral failings. Everybody thinks they are moral and yet when faced with a situation the moral part of the brain just hides and acts ignorant. Its part of what allows us to kill each other in war.

An example on topic would be the soldiers who tortured those iraq prisoners. I would bet that if you would have asked them a year beforhand if torture was wrong that they themselves would have condemned it.

The best way i have of describing moral failings is how they teach women to yell FIRE instead of RAPE, while every single person would say they would help a lady yelling rape the truth is you wouldnt.

We just like to pretent we have morals.



posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 12:10 AM
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Reply to post by lemon1
 


Not really. Everyone has morals but what it comes down to is will you stick to these morals if placed in a difficult position. Your example with the soldiers isnt quite right there are too many other variable. For example, you dont know how long they were in the warzone, how many people they saw killed that they called friends, what propaganda was being shoved down their throat, or what the price was if they said yes or no. Plus sometimes people muddle morals and ethics....they arent the same. But for the most part people have situational morals/ethics. I mean its like this, someone may swear they would never eat a bug ever.....but if society collapsed and the only thing left to eat was bugs....what do you think they would do??


 
Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com
 



posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 12:47 AM
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reply to post by acmpnsfal
 


Also to be considered are the ethics of war. Morals are learned to a pretty high extent. By birth, the only true inherent thing that is hard to deviate from in nature is the love between a mother and child. More so on the mother's behalf. All the other things are just learned in society really. So when you talk about something like torturing others in war, is it a breach of morals to follow what your country tells you to do?

Just something to ponder, I don't really agree with the torture of anyone so I am not trying to justify anything...



posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 01:53 AM
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reply to post by PhysicsAdept
 


My life as a child was very similar to what you described in your opening post. I came up with many different and conniving ways I could murder my abuser(s) without being caught. I couldn't run away because I had younger siblings to protect. I couldn't call the cops because they were friends with the main abuser and never did anything other than joke around and tell my siblings and I that "all kids deserve a good beating". Even the cops who were well-intentioned could do nothing because, being a minor, my "father" (abuser) was allowed in the room during questioning... and I wasn't about to tell the truth with that piece of crap an arm's length away, where he would've grabbed me and hurt me if I said anything to get him in trouble.

I couldn't rely on anybody else. I allowed other people to hurt me as well, because I figured I didn't deserve anything better anyway.

The abuse finally stopped when I was 17, when I couldn't take it anymore and fought back. I pushed him and cornered him yelled at him and told him that I'd either kill him or die trying.

I meant it.

I was going to strangle him to death. All I saw was red, and all I felt was murder and hate and disgust.

He was afraid of me and never hurt me again.

Unfortunately, the damage was done. I went on to live a very self-destructive life for awhile because I wanted only to die. I decided I needed to get out of that hole when I was about 19, and am still digging my way out, many years later. That psychological trauma will probably always be with me in some form.

It sucks.

Since I left the family, he has hurt some of my siblings. They refuse to cut ties with him because he is a master manipulator and uses coercion very successfully. My "mother" is and always has been an enabler and doesn't care, as long as she doesn't have to rock the boat. She has given her younger children to him and gone off to "make a life for herself".


It sucks.

But, I am alive and I have many things to be thankful for. I have made a good life for myself. I realize there are some things that I can never change. At least I can give my children a good life, though, and know that they will never have to experience anything like that as long as I am around.

So, yes, I would murder someone else rather than be tortured by them or allow my loved ones to be tortured by them.
edit on 2/7/2012 by ottobot because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 04:58 PM
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reply to post by ottobot
 


Wow. Thank you very much for sharing... I come to ATS because of the diversity of thought and variance of the people's experience, and I have grown a bit since listening to your story. I commend you for being straight with everyone and telling us how it is. I have to say, that I am very fortunate with how I live and with who. I think sometimes we take for granite what we do and do not have...

I am not sheltered to the world though. The way you describe this manipulation and the way you talk of this abuse sounds eerily similar to how a section of part of my family now lives in... I do not wish to tell the entire story as of yet because I have family members who belong to this site and I respect their privacy, but I assure you that many of the elements to that story are similar to yours.

Thanks again, and may you fare well in the present, and future



posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 11:52 PM
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reply to post by ottobot
 


So this story is basically what i was talking about. Even though you know what is happening to your sibilings is wrong ottobot, not only do you know but you have experienced first hand. You ended by saying that you would murder over these convictions, but you still let it happen. In no way am I trying to judge you ( i am more guilty about worse things) I am trying to show that peoples morals are not what they say they are.

To Physics adepts question. " So when you talk about something like torturing others in war, is it a breach of morals to follow what your country tells you to do?"
This is a great question. One that i can speak on first hand, also one that i am torn between. As a soldier you really do not feel you have any other choice but to do what they tell you to do. So you do it, you turn off the moral part of your brain. Yes it is a breach of morals, you have the moral not to kill and yet you can have such a strong conviction overthrown cause someone tells you to.

Edit: Want to clarify that I was a medic I never killed anyone, just saw everybody else do it.

I understand one of the reasons that lets us do bad things and it is as simple as we are the top predator, but let me promise you, your morals are not as strong as you think.
edit on 8-2-2012 by lemon1 because: clarification



posted on Feb, 8 2012 @ 11:06 AM
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reply to post by PhysicsAdept
 


I am a Veteran of War - and I know in my heart I could justify murder. I know there was a situation where it was best I was not in fact armed or there would have been two dead male electricians from our host nation. You see they woke me in my all female tent, in a combat zone - and they had strayed from their manditory American escort and did not speak english. No doubt I would have killed them. When you KNOW you can kill - it sobers you. They are very fortunate I was not armed. (Long story as to why not - that mainly deals with political sensativity of our host nation)

As for an abusive situation - I would not allow myself to remain in one. If it was life or death - me vs. them in a survival type situation. Yes I could kill without hesitation.
edit on 8-2-2012 by LittleBirdSaid because: (no reason given)



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