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Theory, the 24 Elders

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posted on Feb, 6 2012 @ 10:09 AM
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Originally posted by the2ofusr1
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 
Do you have a good commentary on the two kingdoms ...I usually put them as one but I usually miss some sutle diffrences alot of the time .....Its anything but easy but is usually easy to understand once shown ...peace



Sure, I'll have to find which commentary, I can't recall. I'll u2u it.


Here is a brief overview I just Googled that's pretty descent, I'll have to work to find the long teaching.



edit on 6-2-2012 by NOTurTypical because: Kingdom of Heaven VS Kingdom of God

edit on 6-2-2012 by NOTurTypical because: U2U sent brother.




posted on Feb, 6 2012 @ 11:10 AM
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There's another explanation of the number "24" which i find attractive.
In the OT set-up, the priests were divided into 24 families, which gives the number a priestly association.
In Revelation ch5 v9, the elders praise God for making his people "kings and priests", or "a kingdom and priests". This repeats what was said in ch1 v6.
We know that the elders are kings, because they keep throwing down their crowns in front of God. if they are priests as well, this would match the double role that they sing about.

Similarly in ch11 the Witnesses are described as "the two olive trees". In Zechariah, the first meaning of the olive trees is that they stand for Zerubbabel and Joshua, ie the (uncrowned) king and the high priest. The same combination.



posted on Feb, 6 2012 @ 01:05 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 
The designation, elders would indicate they are people from long ago.
I recently read something which explained


edit on 5-2-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)


Are you always reading something that explains something, but is what you are reading always something from someone who agrees with your point of view?

When John had the vision, written after Nero, the vision was for a future time.



posted on Feb, 6 2012 @ 02:35 PM
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reply to post by DISRAELI
 



In the OT set-up, the priests were divided into 24 families, which gives the number a priestly association.


YES!! And they also have thrones. There are 3 people in the scripture who are kings as well as priests. Melchizedek, Jesus Himself, and the body of Christ.



posted on Feb, 6 2012 @ 02:39 PM
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Originally posted by mosheh24

Originally posted by chr0naut

If the church is to be raptured prior to the tribulation, then it is highly likely that those sealed and martyred during this period are actually Jews. Remember that the tribulation period is more rightly called "the time of Jacobs trouble".




Show me where Scripture says the Church will be raptured? You can't because it don't even imply that anyone will escape, again it's a feel good teaching that don't exist based on a passage taken way out of context by the pulpit masters. Here's the infamous 'rapture' verses used:

1Th 4:13 Now, brothers, we do not wish you to be ignorant concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you be sad as others who have no expectation.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that יהושע died and rose again, so also Elohim shall bring with Him those who sleep in יהושע.
1Th 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Master, that we, the living who are LEFT OVER at the coming of the Master shall in no way go before those who are asleep.
1Th 4:16 Because the Master Himself shall come down from heaven with a shout, with the voice of a chief messenger, and with the trumpet of Elohim, and the dead in Messiah shall rise first.
1Th 4:17 Then we, the living who are LEFT OVER, shall be caught away together with them in the clouds to meet the Master in the air – and so we shall always be with the Master.
1Th 4:18 So, then, encourage one another with these words.

But if you continue to the next chapter the timing of this 'event' is more clearer, typical Pulpit master tactic of only speaking half the chapter picking and choosing verses. A little History for you, Verses are non existent in all original manuscripts. Here's the next chapter:

1Th 5:1 Now, brothers, as to the times and the seasons, you do not need to be written to.
1Th 5:2 For you yourselves know very well that the day of יהוה comes as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then suddenly destruction comes upon them, as labour pains upon a pregnant woman, and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But you, brothers, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 For you are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 So, then, we should not sleep, as others do, but we should watch and be sober.

If you know you prophetic writings the Day of YHWH is at the very end when the Kingdom is established and not before. Rapture in the sense it's spoken today is not true and wasn't assimilated into Church false doctrine till the 1800's.


edit on 5-2-2012 by mosheh24 because: (no reason given)


I did say "if".

But my personal belief is that the "harpazo" is referenced several times in the scriptures and this will happen prior to the last three years of the "tribulation" period. I have no idea actually when, or even if this is a single instance.


edit on 6/2/2012 by chr0naut because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 6 2012 @ 02:48 PM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 



From what I gather, the 144k are messianic Hebrews who are protected from what soon is coming upon the rest of the Jacobian heritage i.e. Israel as a nation, and too, the world.

Because their (the 144k) lineage is Hebrew and not Gentilian, God has reserved a special purpose and one of a kind blessing for them in this life and the next while the believing gentiles have their own special, one of a kind, gift before the refining fire arrives; the promised Harpazo.

I do so long for the day the Sun does not shine and the moon does not give off her light after the revealing of the son of perdition, when we shall see our Lord coming in the air, sending forth his angels to gather together the elect. (Mark 13) Nevertheless, how many "Christians" and unknowing alike, in such a day and time, will be so rapped-up in trying to save their own life that they will miss the Harpazo simply because they did not recognize the event unto watching and praying (luke 21), (mtthw 25), (1 thess 5)?

P.s. Since you like numbers, what do make of this:

I speculate that out of 2.5 billion self-proclaimed "Christians," at best half may know and believe what they are actually saying. Out of that 1-1.5 billion only half are "wise virgins" (mtthw 25). That leaves us with around 700k faithful, world-wide, who believe in and are looking for the harpazo. Your thoughts?



posted on Feb, 6 2012 @ 05:03 PM
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Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 



From what I gather, the 144k are messianic Hebrews who are protected from what soon is coming upon the rest of the Jacobian heritage i.e. Israel as a nation, and too, the world.

Because their (the 144k) lineage is Hebrew and not Gentilian, God has reserved a special purpose and one of a kind blessing for them in this life and the next while the believing gentiles have their own special, one of a kind, gift before the refining fire arrives; the promised Harpazo.

I do so long for the day the Sun does not shine and the moon does not give off her light after the revealing of the son of perdition, when we shall see our Lord coming in the air, sending forth his angels to gather together the elect. (Mark 13) Nevertheless, how many "Christians" and unknowing alike, in such a day and time, will be so rapped-up in trying to save their own life that they will miss the Harpazo simply because they did not recognize the event unto watching and praying (luke 21), (mtthw 25), (1 thess 5)?

P.s. Since you like numbers, what do make of this:

I speculate that out of 2.5 billion self-proclaimed "Christians," at best half may know and believe what they are actually saying. Out of that 1-1.5 billion only half are "wise virgins" (mtthw 25). That leaves us with around 700k faithful, world-wide, who believe in and are looking for the harpazo. Your thoughts?



When God raptured people prior to the flood (of Noah), all he took was one (Enoch), perhaps it won't be that big a deal this time also?



posted on Feb, 6 2012 @ 05:33 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

We Christians should be longing to be with the Lord Jesus and out of this fallen cursed world. That's why the Bible says: "THE SPIRIT AND THE BRIDE SAY COME!" It's called our "blessed hope".

[color=DarkSlateGray]..A Christian is someone who follows a lifestyle which is christ-like. Some people think that is religion and is evil, so they invent a philosophy that Christianity is really just a relationship between a savior, and the saved, so they adopt a non-biblical label for themselves as The Saved, and tell themselves and others that they are saved Christians, as opposed to religious Christians. To complete their delusion, they create another philosophy which says they are inherently evil and nothing they do can possibly be seen as being righteous and that instead of striving towards righteousness, they further invent a philosophy that salvation is not based on anything they do and is based on something someone else has done, thus freeing them up to dwell on their own depravity as if it is just something you need to accept. Then with this newly found boldness, they proceed to put this attitude to use by claiming that anyone who advocates striving for righteousness are filled with a pride which will end in their undoing.
[color=DarkSlateGray]..The author of the phrase I am quoting is here indicating with the word, we, that he is claiming to be a Christian, no doubt of the "saved" variety, and being "saved", he can dictate terms to anyone else aspiring to be "saved" like him, so instructs the neophyte on the proper thoughts a Christian should be having. In order to cause despair within the pupil (and to so adopt the philosophy of the hardened sinner), he brings up an Old Testament illusion of a person called, YHWH, who is thought to have pronounced a curse upon the earth. This further entrenches the feeling of hopelessness and dispels any notion of value to this earth which we live on (the same world, by the way, that the New Testament says God so loved as to send his only begotten son to save) or the people who dwell on it (the ones Jesus died to save).
[color=DarkSlateGray]..Jesus told his disciples, ". . . now I am going to the one who sent me . . . I am going to the Father and you will see me no longer". Jesus goes into a spiritual discussion of how he will be with them and he alludes to an advocate who will bring certain things about, which the disciples fail to understand at that time and will not, until some further events happen in Galilee. To make a clear point which connects to the beginning part of this discourse, he makes an unambiguous statement, "I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.”
[color=DarkSlateGray]..During this discourse where he seems to be equivocating on whether he is going to be with them or not, he makes a very serious statement, "I tell you the solemn truth, you will weep and wail, but the world will rejoice;". Now you may think to yourself after being inundated with doom and gloom from the hardened sinners, 'That probably means that the "worldly" people are going to be happy because of how those people who believed in their Messiah were crushed with disappointment at his death.' Really, do you think that? That sort of thing would have already crossed the minds of the disciples so why would Jesus emphasize the solemn nature of what he is saying here? By the believers going through their not being able to be physically with Jesus, and persevering through that and going forward regardless, the world will be glad for their having gone through that struggle.
[color=DarkSlateGray]..So, you may ask, what is this better world that we should be looking forward to? The world to come which is the thing that the person bringing it about is rightly called, the Messiah.
As Jesus is explaining this, he uses a phrase about sorrow tuning to gladness so I went looking for what he possibly could have been talking about and here is what turned up, a verse from the Book of Esther:
9:22
as the days on which the Jews gained relief from their enemies, and as the month that had been turned for them from sorrow into gladness and from mourning into a holiday; that they should make them days of feasting and gladness, days for sending gifts of food to one another and presents to the poor.

As the results that Esther had overcoming her enemy became a national holiday, so we have one today for Christians, which is called Easter, of all things. So it looks as if Jesus prophesied that there would be a holiday to commemorate his return, which happened on Easter.
The point of this post is to contradict the earlier post instructing people that if they want to be a proper "Christian" they should focus on some sort rapture or some sort of end of the world event.

edit on 6-2-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 6 2012 @ 05:44 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 



.A Christian is someone who follows a lifestyle which is christ-like. Some people think that is religion and is evil, so they invent a philosophy that Christianity is really just a relationship between a savior, and the saved, so they adopt a non-biblical label for themselves as The Saved, and tell themselves and others that they are saved Christians, as opposed to religious Christians.


Yes, some of us out here trust Christ Jesus alone for our redemption. We love Him, worship Him, read His Word, and try our best to listen to His Spirit He deposited into our body. To repent of our old way of life. And other people trust their baptism, or by how much money they give, or they trust they know the sacred name and no one else does. Others claim to possess secret gnosis, and yet others trust in themselves to save themselves by how hard they try and keep all the rules. I'm not going to apologize for placing my trust in Christ alone.

Everything other than Christ alone just gets you cuts in the line to Hell.



edit on 6-2-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 6 2012 @ 07:04 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

To repent of our old way of life.

Some people do believe in baptism and it would be people who actually believe in the Bible and not just little snippets made into proof-texts to support particular narrowly defined philosophies.
And some people believe true repentance includes changing your life, while you think of repentance as being more like feeling sorry for yourself.
Wishing to go to heaven but not being willing to do anything about it is compatible with sociopathic traits.
People who are sociopaths have not been converted and will not go to heaven.
Crying and saying how much you want to go to heaven and saying how much you love Jesus, and thinking that will insure your acceptance is the behavior manifested by a sociopath. I know because I had this experience of hearing this with my former room mate I mentioned the other day on this forum (the one who is in jail now for sexual assault), who I told was not going to heaven because he was an unrepentant sinner.

edit on 6-2-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 6 2012 @ 07:22 PM
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reply to post by WarminIndy
 

Are you always reading something that explains something, but is what you are reading always something from someone who agrees with your point of view?
If I already had all these ideas, then I wouldn't need to be reading, now would I?

When John had the vision, written after Nero, the vision was for a future time.
That's just silly.



posted on Feb, 6 2012 @ 08:49 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

To repent of our old way of life.

Some people do believe in baptism and it would be people who actually believe in the Bible and not just little snippets made into proof-texts to support particular narrowly defined philosophies.


I believe in baptism too, but not as a sacrament of baptism. Baptism doesn't save you, its what saved people do.


And some people believe true repentance includes changing your life, while you think of repentance as being more like feeling sorry for yourself.


I've never said that. You're lying about me again. Remorse is just that, it's not repentance.


Wishing to go to heaven but not being willing to do anything about it is compatible with sociopathic traits.


To assume I can do anything about it other than to trust Him is the same as thinking His sacrifice wasn't complete or all sufficient. He exclaimed "Tetelestai!" in the Greek, that means "paid in full".


People who are sociopaths have not been converted and will not go to heaven.


And the Bible also says never will liars, so why does that not phase you?


Crying and saying how much you want to go to heaven and saying how much you love Jesus, and thinking that will insure your acceptance is the behavior manifested by a sociopath.


Says you, other people simply call it "worship".


I know because I had this experience of hearing this with my former room mate I mentioned the other day on this forum (the one who is in jail now for sexual assault), who I told was not going to heaven because he was an unrepentant sinner.


Well, there are only two types of people on Earth, repentant and unrepentant sinners. We're all sinners saved by grace. And praise the Lord for that.



posted on Feb, 6 2012 @ 08:54 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 



That's just silly.


John was a political prisoner of the Emperor Domitian, we know what dates he ruled and when he died.



posted on Feb, 6 2012 @ 10:48 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Well since you know it . . . how about showing it?

Just saying that as if it is established fact is not an argument.



posted on Feb, 6 2012 @ 10:59 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

You're lying about me again.

You could fix that by telling the truth.
Of course you don't want to say what you really think so always sidestep it.
What you believe is that you stand in front of fellow cult members and say magic words which forces Jesus to save you.



posted on Feb, 6 2012 @ 11:13 PM
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reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 





I speculate that out of 2.5 billion self-proclaimed "Christians," at best half may know and believe what they are actually saying. Out of that 1-1.5 billion only half are "wise virgins" (mtthw 25). That leaves us with around 700k faithful, world-wide, who believe in and are looking for the harpazo. Your thoughts?


Well Jesus flat out tells us "not all who say to me Lord Lord, shall enter the kingdom of my Father" So obvious there's going to be people who pay lip service to him but whose hearts are not right and neither are their ways.

I for one and looking for the harpazo, i pray like every day it happens. It would be a huge validation when people start disappearing in front of other people right out in public, ofcourse the media would spin it as mass UFO abduction. I would hope there's more than 700k that believe in the harpazo event since Jesus himself says he will call us up to him. I do think that believing in the harpazo may not bear much consquence on your salvation. i'm hoping that maybe 70 million believe it but that could be stretching it. The number 70 crops up to in regards to the 70 weeks of Daniel so we could se 7777777777=70 and 7 just happens to be the number of completion. Who knows?



posted on Feb, 6 2012 @ 11:18 PM
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reply to post by chr0naut
 





When God raptured people prior to the flood (of Noah), all he took was one (Enoch), perhaps it won't be that big a deal this time also?


Actually God took every man that had the faith to go with Enoch and stay the course, according to the book of Jasher. There were several dozen men that stayed with Enoch when he began his travel to where God would take him to heaven. Out of the 800k men that went with Enoch, only a few dozen stayed the course, everyone else went home when the going got rough.

When the other kings and princes went to go search for the few dozen who failed to return, they came upon the place Enoch ascended from and it was covered with snow. The men thought the corpses of the men who went with Enoch were buried in the snow but when they dug down they found no bodies, because the men that stayed with Enoch were taken with him because they had faith.



posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 02:13 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Well since you know it . . . how about showing it?


He was born in 51 AD and died in 96 AD.


Just saying that as if it is established fact is not an argument.


Actually, we do know when he died, it's a matter of history.



posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 02:23 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

You're lying about me again.


You could fix that by telling the truth.


Huh? I can "fix" you lying by me 'telling the truth'? Do be honest now for once, what did I really say was Biblical repentance and what was not?


Of course you don't want to say what you really think so always sidestep it.


I do in virtually every thread, you choose to lie about what I say continually and I've brought this up to you for over a year now. Considering you don't stop doing it, I assume that lying is a normal part of your life.


What you believe is that you stand in front of fellow cult members and say magic words which forces Jesus to save you.


No, magic words don't save anyone, I've never said they do. You might be thinking of the sacred name folks, or the Gnostics. Jesus saves, not any of us. The Holy Spirit regenerates a man, we don't regenerate ourselves. He's our redeemer, we don't redeem ourselves. You're one of the folks who thinks people make themselves righteous then the Spirit comes to abide in them. You think man is the problem, yet man is also the solution to his problem of sin.



posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 02:26 AM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 



Well Jesus flat out tells us "not all who say to me Lord Lord, shall enter the kingdom of my Father" So obvious there's going to be people who pay lip service to him but whose hearts are not right and neither are their ways.


He also says that every tongue will confess that He is Lord that day as well. All who are chosen will come, and all who come will in no wise be cast out.



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