Question about Numbers and Time.

It has been bothering me for quite some time and i hope this is the right place to ask these questions, well here it goes. What i'm trying to understand is if science has answers for these questions?

1- Does time truly exist or is a tool to better understand our environment?

(If it does, how do we see its effect, Since age is simply the inability of cells to reproduce without deterioration, clocks/seconds/days/weeks/months/years are just the rotation of our planet around our star around the sun in our galaxy.)

2- Why are we so fixated on the idea of beginning and end, is it our lack of understanding or our shortcomings in not being able to see more of the big picture?

3- Should numbers be used to try and understand the universe? even though they are simply symbols and abstract ideas (Do not exist in the physical realm), what if the way we used numbers is flawed in nature and that's why we get paradoxes and increasingly complicated problems?

4- Is anything really infinite? if it is then aren't we unable to prove it? Or should we just slap the title of infinite to anything we are unable to prove to be finite?

Let me know if i should expand on any of the questions further if i diden't write them clearly. What is your take? i truly don't know so hopefully someone can point me in the right direction.

1 - We live in a changing/dynamic universe vs. a static one. Time is a way to meter the then vs. the now vs. the later, even though the now is all there ever really is (the other two exist only in our minds). Time is to our universe what a number line is to real numbers. Time and the number line always have a limited precision/resolution (although both represent something continuous). So I am not sure if time really exists. I used to hold hope for the permanence of our experiences in some form beyond this reality, but now I am not sure if they're just as fleeting as the days gone by...

2 - Because the beginning and the end are the beginning and the end of the number line that represents your life (at least this one, regardless of your beliefs) as you know it. And for everything else we talk about having a beginning and an end, I think it's because in our world, that's how things work. They have a beginning and they have an end. Nothing infinite or timeless in our daily lives that can't be observed/laid out and measured.

3 - Numbers are symbols depicting physical realities. Negative numbers, imaginary numbers, maybe not (you can't show me -7 bananas). But they still play nice with the other numbers in math problems, and therefore are viewed as valid. Negative numbers can be thought of as removed items from a set. (3 + -2) = (3 - 2) = 1

4 - Hard to imagine, isn't it? The universe itself is the core candidate for this question. It's either infinite (how could this be? It makes no sense), or it's not (well how could this be? What is beyond "the wall"?). Even if you try and think of universe as closed loop or something... still doesn't make sense. What about oh so far over THERE? What's THERE?! Also, we hear the universe is expanding... for something to expand, doesn't it have to be of a fixed size? Well then as I said -- what the hell's outside of it?!

My 2 cents.

"Time" is a man made tool to basically keep track of history.

Originally posted by CesarO
It has been bothering me for quite some time and i hope this is the right place to ask these questions, well here it goes. What i'm trying to understand is if science has answers for these questions?

1- Does time truly exist or is a tool to better understand our environment?

(If it does, how do we see its effect, Since age is simply the inability of cells to reproduce without deterioration, clocks/seconds/days/weeks/months/years are just the rotation of our planet around our star around the sun in our galaxy.)

2- Why are we so fixated on the idea of beginning and end, is it our lack of understanding or our shortcomings in not being able to see more of the big picture?

3- Should numbers be used to try and understand the universe? even though they are simply symbols and abstract ideas (Do not exist in the physical realm), what if the way we used numbers is flawed in nature and that's why we get paradoxes and increasingly complicated problems?

4- Is anything really infinite? if it is then aren't we unable to prove it? Or should we just slap the title of infinite to anything we are unable to prove to be finite?

Let me know if i should expand on any of the questions further if i diden't write them clearly. What is your take? i truly don't know so hopefully someone can point me in the right direction.

edit on 4-2-2012 by CesarO because: (no reason given)

Time does exist and it has been proven. A test was done with two atomic clocks. They were synced up exactly and one was taken to space the other left on earth. Turns out the one here went slower than the one in space proving time exists, at least in a spacetime state. If it did not exist it could not be manipulated.

Yes numbers should be used. They are a universal constant that will likely be the way first communications with ETs will happen.

The rest of your questions of philosophical and up for debate.

Time does exist and it has been proven

Yes I read the thread a few days ago of which you speak First off, show me your "proof" of this clock thing. Second, if they did preform this test it is definitely not proof of anything but the effects of pressure on the clock, not "proof" of time existing.


ETA does this mean that astronauts have aged differently than normal people because they have been to space?

reply to post by AllUrChips


That was a pretty sound test. And it confirms theories about how time can be experienced differently by diff. observers under diff. conditions (as predicted by Einstein). I don't agree with the poster's comment above that this somehow proves that time is more than a convenient concept. There could be other explanations, no? Whether the universe is "real" or a simulation, the local rate of change could be being altered by some unknown or undiscovered phenomenon (as an example)...

My problem comes when people try to explain something they made up (Time) with something else they made up (Numbers).

What i try and ask myself is if tomorrow the earth disappears and nobody keeps track of "Time" how would the effects of time be "seen" on the universe.

Originally posted by CesarO
It has been bothering me for quite some time and i hope this is the right place to ask these questions, well here it goes. What i'm trying to understand is if science has answers for these questions?

1- Does time truly exist or is a tool to better understand our environment?

The perception of time is something that is real because it rests on the consciousness of not just one, but of nearly the entire world. We prioritize, we plan, we do everything under this thing with no real name, other than what we describe as time based on where the Sun is located. It is a useful tool.

(If it does, how do we see its effect, Since age is simply the inability of cells to reproduce without deterioration, clocks/seconds/days/weeks/months/years are just the rotation of our planet around our star around the sun in our galaxy.)

We see a clock's pendulum shift, the hands on another tick. We've integrated this visual understanding, and this sense of time even when there's nothing present so say that exists but the very motion of things progressing to which we account for it progressing "towards something" often. We are very integrated into the idea of a beginning and end for everything, even seemingly meaningless matter.

There is an importance of planets rotating around parent stars and around their ecliptic trajectory. This is expressed in a lower sense as time to us on Earth. The faster you move through space, the distance between two objects if you imagine them, you imagine it based upon time and distance, and more heavily upon time when you learn of how great the distance may be. You think, is it possible within my time? My children's?

Time in essence is real, and a part of the key to access the puzzle.

2- Why are we so fixated on the idea of beginning and end, is it our lack of understanding or our shortcomings in not being able to see more of the big picture?

This is what puzzles me so much. The idea of a bigger picture. It seems to me that things as of the start of my life in the 80s, have moved rather linear. As that seemingly straight line stretches further with titles and numbers guiding it's way, I see that it has bumps, the scatter high, and the scatter low until the wave wobbles back and becomes a seemingly straight line once more.

I think humans need to focus on the present more than the past and future, because the past is a gateway to thoughts pertaining to guilt, lack of accomplishment, distrust, self-achievement, the ego, what one hasn't done, could have done, should of down, would have done. It is the foundation of scheming and dreaming thoughts.

The future is based on bewilderment, hope, patience, awaiting something but also the sense of fear, the sense of not knowing and by risking the validity of your pre-conceived notions.

The present just is - and that scares people. No matter how far you look forwards the future, you have to understand that you are not only looking to the future, with every waking moment you are part of both the present and the future, and if you look at things in a total general view, you'd see that it's simply a system of pulling yourself from the past into the future, where your middle ground and centre stage is in the present, between those two colossal things best described by time, past, present and future.

3- Should numbers be used to try and understand the universe? even though they are simply symbols and abstract ideas (Do not exist in the physical realm), what if the way we used numbers is flawed in nature and that's why we get paradoxes and increasingly complicated problems?

I believe that no matter the language or logic of numbers - that things so often point to the same conclusions, because these ideas at their basic basis, came from the raw mind and its fragile interpretation of what's around us. Fragile, but persistent. Numbers and routine play a massive part in encompassing ourselves and integrating ourselves into the "real world". A child learns from a mistake, event or reaction, not just once, not just twice, but often exceeding the third time.

As children we had little awareness of all this movement, all that goes on around us. We could have cared less, and from this genuine source of creativity and this plank held in place strongly, we had and have been able to step from the ship to shore with ease.

4- Is anything really infinite? if it is then aren't we unable to prove it? Or should we just slap the title of infinite to anything we are unable to prove to be finite?

We can only prove it to be true to what we accept is true within this place, this reality. If you aren't there and a tree falls, does it still make a sound? How about this one. Is a tree falls on Earth, and you aren't there, did it really fall, and lastly, did it make a sound?

Is there not a set of rocks moving across Mars' surface right now as a little dust devil scuffs about?

How can we say that time is real when we don't even really know what time is. We can make up ways to percieve it but we have a limited vision of what's really out there.

reply to post by Ajanta


Thank you for taking the time to write your post, First thing is that i agree with you that the perception of time exists without a doubt after all it has been inscribed in us since we are young, the key is time is all about perception its nothing more than an illusion created by us for us in order to better make sense of it all, it is a great tool but i believe that in the grans scheme it does not exist only in our brains. We also have to be careful when we use words like real or not real because it is real in the sense that we use it but its not real in the sense that it cant be found in the environment, that i know there is no time particle is there?

The problem with beginning and end to me seems to be our point of view is so narrow that we cant really discuss this properly, for us our life time seems to be long and full of trouble and never ending, for some it ends too soon or goes by too quickly. In the grand scheme, the universe is estimated to be 14B yrs old, the earth is around 4b years old which is unimaginable for most people which renders our perception insignificant.

Again i agree with you that numbers are a vital part of society but my problem comes when they try to use them to explain complex things, they are real as long as we use them but again going back to the grand scheme there is Being and not being which is where 1 and 0 come from but from those two numbers that create all others to try and explain time and other complex ideas it seems to fall short, way too short. Which is why i believe that numbers do not exist.

Well if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there then a sound is not created, after all the sound is not created by the tree but by the brain, the tree does create vibrations that are interpreted by the hairs inside the ear. I do believe that it would even if people are not there because he laws of physics predict so but then again its impossible to prove it

Originally posted by CesarO
reply to post by Ajanta

 

Thank you for taking the time to write your post, First thing is that i agree with you that the perception of time exists without a doubt after all it has been inscribed in us since we are young, the key is time is all about perception its nothing more than an illusion created by us for us in order to better make sense of it all, it is a great tool but i believe that in the grans scheme it does not exist only in our brains. We also have to be careful when we use words like real or not real because it is real in the sense that we use it but its not real in the sense that it cant be found in the environment, that i know there is no time particle is there?

The problem with beginning and end to me seems to be our point of view is so narrow that we cant really discuss this properly, for us our life time seems to be long and full of trouble and never ending, for some it ends too soon or goes by too quickly. In the grand scheme, the universe is estimated to be 14B yrs old, the earth is around 4b years old which is unimaginable for most people which renders our perception insignificant.

Again i agree with you that numbers are a vital part of society but my problem comes when they try to use them to explain complex things, they are real as long as we use them but again going back to the grand scheme there is Being and not being which is where 1 and 0 come from but from those two numbers that create all others to try and explain time and other complex ideas it seems to fall short, way too short. Which is why i believe that numbers do not exist.

Well if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there then a sound is not created, after all the sound is not created by the tree but by the brain, the tree does create vibrations that are interpreted by the hairs inside the ear. I do believe that it would even if people are not there because he laws of physics predict so but then again its impossible to prove it

lol, I agree with everything you said.

Numbers, we created. Without knowing of numbers, 3 objects are in front of us, it's just a given taken in as one source I'd imagine, one big picture, but knowledge is useful and seems to lend truth to some things more than others.

This damn biologically integrated time-cord holographic projection mechanism.

I think time is real. I don't think its linear. It is definitely relative, but I don't think we have all the information to understand it.

Here's a super doc, if you haven't seen it!