Crazy Sufi Wisdom: The Moon Is More Valuable Than The Sun

reply to post by ButtUglyToad


a splendid time walking the husky-doo last night. the moon was shining and surrounded with whispy cloud that formed into the shape of... wait for it.. a toads head. what a giggle i had. kind of affirms you have experience with the processor. it's a pity i left the camera at home due to crazy moon husky-malarky.

haven't noticed the ringing issue as of yet.
f

Originally posted by Xoanon
reply to post by ErroneousDylan

 

I'd like to consider them, and all, as equal value.

Absolutely, ErroneousDylan, I can tell that you must have an interest in Alchemy and that sort of thing; I am guessing though.

What do you think of the idea, though, that the philosopher can sort of use the Moon to see by while his or her eyes adjust to the powerful Light of The Sun? For a novice philosopher that has just stepped out of The Cave, things aren't in balance yet.

Plato seems to make it clear that for the unprepared The Sun will be an obliterating force, and can be worse than if the philosopher had never left The Cave at all. But the gentle light of the Moon can help the aspiring philosopher to develop his or her eyes so that he or she can begin to see more and more of the Truth of The Sun. In fact it might even be surmised that the penetrating forces of the Moon are what hipped the philosopher to the idea that there was a problem in the first place. Despite being housed in a cave.

That makes the Moon the Path of Return to The Sun.

What do you think, Dylan.

X.

edit on 5-2-2012 by Xoanon because: ?

Yes, that makes sense to me (as it should).

However, not speaking in metaphors, I find that, though subtle, the energy of the mood to be a little chaotic. I don't mean chaotic in the sense of raw energy from the Universe, but more-or-less.. "unstable".

Perhaps there is no coincidence in the word "lunatic"?

What say you?

reply to post by ErroneousDylan

However, not speaking in metaphors, I find that, though subtle, the energy of the moon to be a little chaotic. I don't mean chaotic in the sense of raw energy from the Universe, but more-or-less.. "unstable". Perhaps there is no coincidence in the word "lunatic"?

What say you?

I say as you would say, Dylan.

I am just going off the cuff here, but your post made me think of our Sufis again, especially Rumi and his ecstatic Love poems. And also the whirling Dervishes. maybe the view from the Moon has to be modulated and grounded through poetic expression and ecstatic dance till one drops.

It is chaotic and unstable.

From what I have been learning from pondering this stuff I would say that that is the point precisely. The chaos of life. The uncertainty, the trouble we get in to with one another and the love we share; especially of the frantic erotic romantic kind that makes lives jump the tracks. The stuff of life: very chaotic, and essential for our growth and development. Unless one is an ascetic.

The idea seems to be, if one chooses to see by the Light of The Moon, to see the inner symbolic meanings of all life's situations. I think the idea is that if one can see the archetypal meanings in the stories or narratives that make up our lives, we can have a better chance of making decisions about how to live that bring more of Plato's Goodness to ourselves and so to everyone around us.

Gosh, Dylan, so much to say about this and so hard to keep it short.

The nature of our being is instability. I know that we all have heard that before, I keep wanting to reach for the Buddhism but that's not really part of this mash-up, is it? maybe for another mash-up. So, yeah it's all unstable. Does The Moon influence this process somehow? Yeah, I'm sure it does, but the sages (Socrates forward) seemed to be saying, and I agree, that this instability is the nature of Matter. Although I do agree that a great deal of the 'chaos' is generated by the Moon.

The idea seems to be that through engaging with all of life's instability and chaos, we will gain the experience that we need to actually transmute all of the chaos and uncertainty in to a kind of stability, a kind we can live with, I suppose. We are the machine that does this through experience. And we are all doing it all the time for better or worse.

In a way I suppose that I am touching on the idea of a war between Spirit and Matter. Just to be very straight forward about it, it is not a belief on my part but I am in agreement with the likes of Plotinus when he all but comes out and says directly that we are either to consume and transmute matter by experience and reason or we will be consumed by it. We are engaged in this battle everyday, some struggle to make the right decisions, or they struggle with the unreasonableness of life and forget to be sure not to reflect unreasonableness back. The Moon Mirror of The Heart is a reminder

Can things go wrong? Yeah, everyday. And that is why there is this suggestion, I guess, to polish one's heart. That must be why there is an emphasis on a responsive heart, to have one of those we need compassion and empathy. So it is a process whereby experience is qualified by the heart, so that as this transmutation of instability and chaos (i.e. Matter) takes place it does so under the influence of compassion and empathy. Those two are the keys to being able to respond to life in the moment with just the right natural reaction. Imagine the applications.

Whaddya think, D?

X.

From: Plotinus, Ennead 5, Tractate 6, sec. 4.:

Yet again: In any dual object there is the unity [the principle of identity] side by side with the rest of the thing; an associated member cannot be the unity of the two and there must be a self-standing unity [within the duality] before this unity of members can exist: by the same reasoning there must be also the supreme unity entering into no association whatever, something which is unity-simplex by its very being, utterly devoid of all that belongs to the thing capable of association.

How could anything be present in anything else unless in virtue of a source existing independently of association? The simplex [or absolute] requires no derivation; but any manifold, or any dual, must be dependent. We may use the figure of, first, light; then, following it, the sun; as a third, the orb of the moon taking its light from the sun: Soul carries the Intellectual-Principle as something imparted and lending the light which makes it essentially intellective; Intellectual-Principle carries the light as its own though it is not purely the light but is the being into whose very essence the light has been received; highest is That which, giving forth the light to its sequent, is no other than the pure light itself by whose power the Intellectual-Principle takes character.

How can this highest have need of any other? It is not to be identified with any of the things that enter into association; the self-standing is of a very different order.

www.sacred-texts.com...

More confirmation of this philosophical concept of the 'Moon Mirror' from neo-Platonist philosopher, and my personal favorite, Plotinus, who lived 550 years after the death of Plato.

Waiting For The Sun, indeed.

X.

This poem is mentioned by Joseph Campbell in "The Power of Myth"


In a Dark Time by T.Roethke

In a dark time, the eye begins to see,
I meet my shadow in the deepening shade;
I hear my echo in the echoing wood--
A lord of nature weeping to a tree,
I live between the heron and the wren,
Beasts of the hill and serpents of the den.

What's madness but nobility of soul
At odds with circumstance? The day's on fire!
I know the purity of pure despair,
My shadow pinned against a sweating wall,
That place among the rocks--is it a cave,
Or winding path? The edge is what I have.

A steady storm of correspondences!
A night flowing with birds, a ragged moon,
And in broad day the midnight come again!
A man goes far to find out what he is--
Death of the self in a long, tearless night,
All natural shapes blazing unnatural light.

Dark,dark my light, and darker my desire.
My soul, like some heat-maddened summer fly,
Keeps buzzing at the sill. Which I is I?
A fallen man, I climb out of my fear.
The mind enters itself, and God the mind,
And one is One, free in the tearing wind.

Originally posted by Xoanon
From: Plotinus, Ennead 5, Tractate 6, sec. 4.:

Yet again: In any dual object there is the unity [the principle of identity] side by side with the rest of the thing; an associated member cannot be the unity of the two and there must be a self-standing unity [within the duality] before this unity of members can exist: by the same reasoning there must be also the supreme unity entering into no association whatever, something which is unity-simplex by its very being, utterly devoid of all that belongs to the thing capable of association.

How could anything be present in anything else unless in virtue of a source existing independently of association? The simplex [or absolute] requires no derivation; but any manifold, or any dual, must be dependent. We may use the figure of, first, light; then, following it, the sun; as a third, the orb of the moon taking its light from the sun: Soul carries the Intellectual-Principle as something imparted and lending the light which makes it essentially intellective; Intellectual-Principle carries the light as its own though it is not purely the light but is the being into whose very essence the light has been received; highest is That which, giving forth the light to its sequent, is no other than the pure light itself by whose power the Intellectual-Principle takes character.

How can this highest have need of any other? It is not to be identified with any of the things that enter into association; the self-standing is of a very different order.

www.sacred-texts.com...

More confirmation of this philosophical concept of the 'Moon Mirror' from neo-Platonist philosopher, and my personal favorite, Plotinus, who lived 550 years after the death of Plato.

Waiting For The Sun, indeed.

eYe liked this part:

"Yet again: In any dual object there is the unity [the principle of identity] side by side with the rest of the thing; an associated member cannot be the unity of the two and there must be a self-standing unity [within the duality] before this unity of members can exist: by the same reasoning there must be also the supreme unity entering into no association whatever, something which is unity-simplex by its very being, utterly devoid of all that belongs to the thing capable of association."


In any dual object there is the unity side by side with the rest of the thing

Dual Object = +1 & -1

What stands "side-by-side" with those?

-1 0 +1

Unity = Zer0

Law of Opposites - opposites cannot exist without each other and if one exists, so too does the other, with the opposing opposites comprising Source and Source comprising the opposing opposites.

Everything is Relative to Source and Source is Relative to Everything.

Zer0 is Source of All, the only Neutral Number of Infinity, and True Peace in this Life is finding your way back to Source before death!

To be Neutral or kNot to be Neutral, that is the Quest-eYe-on.

Ribbit

reply to post by ButtUglyToad

Zer0 is Source of All, the only Neutral Number of Infinity, and True Peace in this Life is finding your way back to Source before death!

Thank you, ButtUglyToad,

This is a really great post and a wonderful contribution to this thread. Thanks for making ATS fun.

X.

The moon has made alot possible for this planet, even with the life giving power of the sun I think it took our moon to really get things going. Its hard to say what the evolution of our planet would have been like without our closest cosmic neighbor.

On a personal note I've always loved the night time and meditating on the moon more so then enjoying the day..I'm a strong night person, it just seems to be much more introspective time.

You are probably correct Baal.

Our Moon is huge compared to our planet. This may be the difference between our planet and Mars and Venus. That the Moon drives the inner core of the Earth, the magnet that protects us from the harshness of the Sun and allows the Planet to bask in the Sun's life giving energy transfer.

It makes the tides driving the life cycle.

It enacts a force that in conjunction with the core, keeps the plates dynamic.

I suspect that this is what will need to be done to the other planets that we want to colonize. We need to find them a good Moon, so that they can become alive.

reply to post by Xoanon

How can this highest have need of any other? It is not to be identified with any of the things that enter into association; the self-standing is of a very different order.

www.sacred-texts.com...

Hello Philosophers, have you been soph-ing hard? I have.

I wanted to share one of my favorite words with you today...

Hypostasis

Aristotle used the term in a secondary sense for genera and species understood as hylomorphic forms. Primarily, however, he used it with regard to his category of substance, the specimen ("this person" or "this ox") or individual, qua individual, who survives accidental change and in whom the essential properties inhere that define those universals. In contrast, Plato and later Neoplatonism, spoke of the objective reality of a thing or its inner reality (as opposed to outer appearance or illusion).

en.wikipedia.org...

It is a really fun word to play with; I would like to invite you to give it a whirl, if you have never heard it before.

Happy Wednesday,

X.

Originally posted by Xoanon
reply to post by ButtUglyToad

 

Zer0 is Source of All, the only Neutral Number of Infinity, and True Peace in this Life is finding your way back to Source before death!

Thank you, ButtUglyToad,

This is a really great post and a wonderful contribution to this thread. Thanks for making ATS fun.

X.

If you can ever see the contradictory nature of the Universe, you'll then realize that's the truth.

It also helps to explain this equation:

0 + 0 = 1

Ribbit

As the lukewarm hands of the gods

Came down and gently picked my adrenaline pearls
They placed them in their mouths
And rinsed all of the fear out
Nourished them with their saliva

Now I'm all rejuvenated and rested
Now I'm all rejuvenated and rested

As if the healthiest past-time
Is being in life-threatening circumstances
And once again be reborn

All birthed and happy
All birthed and happy
All birthed and happy
All birthed and happy

Best way to start-a-new
Is to fail miserably
Fail at loving
And fail at giving
Fail at creating a flow
Then realign the whole
And kick into the start hole

And kick into the start hole
And kick into the start hole

To risk all is the end all and the beginning all
To risk all is the end all and the beginning all

Originally posted by Eidolon23

As the lukewarm hands of the gods

Came down and gently picked my adrenaline pearls
They placed them in their mouths
And rinsed all of the fear out
Nourished them with their saliva

Now I'm all rejuvenated and rested
Now I'm all rejuvenated and rested

As if the healthiest past-time
Is being in life-threatening circumstances
And once again be reborn

All birthed and happy
All birthed and happy
All birthed and happy
All birthed and happy

Best way to start-a-new
Is to fail miserably
Fail at loving
And fail at giving
Fail at creating a flow
Then realign the whole
And kick into the start hole

And kick into the start hole
And kick into the start hole

To risk all is the end all and the beginning all
To risk all is the end all and the beginning all

edit on 3-3-2012 by Eidolon23 because: ...kick into the start hole, hee.

Beautiful...reminds me of a summer night I spent in sacred ritual beneath my moon mother

I thought a bump and sum mood muzik was in order:



Ribbit

reply to post by ButtUglyToad


to the toad of the whole
and to the whole of the toad

hopping along the infinity road
caring not for the spite
on a moonshone night
where gentle beams enhance the sight

a warmth so fine from the light divine
you see yours,i see mine
when the veil is lifted and i see the blue
a dervishing whirl and a wink for you.
an understanding understood
beyond this language, you know its good
just one thing to pay some mind
the tour bus coming up from behind!

best wishes on your birthday toady.
fakedirt.

Originally posted by fakedirt
reply to post by ButtUglyToad

 

to the toad of the whole
and to the whole of the toad

hopping along the infinity road
caring not for the spite
on a moonshone night
where gentle beams enhance the sight

a warmth so fine from the light divine
you see yours,i see mine
when the veil is lifted and i see the blue
a dervishing whirl and a wink for you.
an understanding understood
beyond this language, you know its good
just one thing to pay some mind
the tour bus coming up from behind!

best wishes on your birthday toady.
fakedirt.

Thankies, ole non-dirt one!

Ribbit

Ps:

Twas speaking with sum dirt the other day
When It spoke up and had this to say
You can't start that which you began
And I'm kNot dirt, I'm fakehuman.
Sew that was that and today is yesterday.

Today I turned Zero!

Hi ATS,

I spend a considerable amount of time trying to figure out how society ticks. I bet you do too. I wanted to add another term found in Greek philosophy. the term was also adopted and put to powerful use by French sociologist and linguist Pierre Bourdieu.

The word is Doxa.

I would like to share with you first the definition of doxa as I have come to appreciate it and then I would like to quote some more standard definitions.

Doxa represents everything that we know about operating in society. The word is meant to represent all of the 'common' knowledge required for a person to function in any social system from large to small, from a science lab, which would require maybe a more stiffened and rigid doxa due to more complexity, to say, the dog-park; the dog park would have its own doxa as well. If a person feels like they are not fitting in? It is probably due to some kind of dissonance with doxa.

Bordieu had a lot to say about who dictates doxa in society and it, of course, has to do with power and schemes to maintain and augment power. Here is WikiPedia doing Bourdieu...

Doxa refers to the learned, fundamental, deep-founded, unconscious beliefs, and values, taken as self-evident universals, that inform an agent's actions and thoughts within a particular field. Doxa tends to favor the particular social arrangement of the field, thus privileging the dominant and taking their position of dominance as self-evident and universally favorable. Therefore, the categories of understanding and perception that constitute a habitus, being congruous with the objective organization of the field, tend to reproduce the very structures of the field.

en.wikipedia.org...

I love that guy.

Here is a simple definition...

Doxa. Opinion, the quasi-knowledge we obtain from the sensible world as opposed to the true knowledge that we get from the realm of Forms.

www.class.uidaho.edu...

And that is why I made the post. I find that trying to reconcile the quasi-knowledge, which I know well, with the knowledge of the realm of True forms, of which, in fact, I know nothing, produces a really desirable friction, and friction in your brainz produces the heat which gives birth to the Dialectic

I hope you dig the word as much as I do.

Have a great day ATS philosophers and have a great Easter.

X.

The cave is one of my favorites ((:
The moon gives us tides...
The rise and fall, like a heartbeat

I prefer daylight... the sun wins

reply to post by Xoanon
You've created a thought-provoking and extremely well-written thread - full of personality and bubbling with life. Even the replies are entertaining.

Plato's Allegory of The Cave is usually spun as a darker, even foreboding, perspective and yet when informed by Nasreddin's absurdity, it gains a lighter touch. It even resonates with where my thoughts have been straying in recent months and lends some needed reassurance. ATS isn't for getting personal, so I'll leave it there; meaning comes from unexpected places and allegorical moonlight is one of them.

With people adding moon-related verse, I feel like I ought to, reluctantly, follow suit. As such, Khalil Gibran is someone who informs my perceptions in this 'cave' and he wrote a little something about the Moon over here.

In the spirit of Nasreddin, I'd much prefer to add a short poem by Arun Kolatker called 'The Butterfly.' He hid truths behind flippancy and whimsy and I like to think he'd appreciate it.

There is no story behind it.
It is split like a second.
It hinges around itself.

It has no future.
It is pinned down to no past.
It's a pun on the present.

Its a little yellow butterfly.
It has taken these wretched hills
under its wings.

Just a pinch of yellow,
it opens before it closes
and it closes before it o

where is it?