I used to be a believer...

Originally posted by thesearchfortruth
reply to post by amongus

 

"Don't Stop, Believing. . ."

I do not wish to believe in something that isn't true.

I am not saying aliens are definitely not visiting, I just don't want to blindly believe in something simply because I want to.

I want truth.

edit on 4-2-2012 by thesearchfortruth because: (no reason given)

For what it's worth, I am totally with you on this. On all counts.
There may very well be life (recognizable as such to us, I mean) elsewhere, I think it's even very likely, but there is no reason to blindly believe they have visited us at any point in history.
They may have.
But we just don't know. We might in the future, maybe soon.
But we don't know that NOW.

As for the supposed reports about UFO (we are clear that it means "unidentified flying object" and that "extraterrestrial" is not implied anywhere, right?) in the distant past, they are problematic for the simple reason that verbal (and even pictorial) imagery can be easily misinterpreted.

Like I said, they may very well be visiting us, there could be an alien, or a bunch of them, sitting on my shoulder as I write this, for all I know, but do we KNOW that?
No.

I think skepticism, in the true sense of the word -- openminded affinity for whatever the truth may turn out to be -- is the healthiest attitude.
Unfortunately it is also the rarest.

Kinda explains the way UFO's evolved from saucers to weird balls of lights... Doubt all of them are man made i dont think we are that smart, we cant even figure out how they made pyramids

Let's just put it this way...
...on the scale of knowledge, belief is closer to the middle than you might think, hence the ease with which one can flip from belief to disbelief...or doubt...

There is only one condition that trumps all naysayers...the experience...
Regardless of the psycho-mumbo-jumbo used to expalin 'away' an experience, the experience remains...mass hallucination over the centuries is a pretty poor excuse for a rebuttal...especially against those who have experienced in our generations.

I agree, you are correct to remain in the centre of this scale, until such a time when belief becomes personal knowledge...good luck and be careful.

Akushla

Originally posted by akushla99
Let's just put it this way...
...on the scale of knowledge, belief is closer to the middle than you might think, hence the ease with which one can flip from belief to disbelief...or doubt...

There is only one condition that trumps all naysayers...the experience...
Regardless of the psycho-mumbo-jumbo used to expalin 'away' an experience, the experience remains...mass hallucination over the centuries is a pretty poor excuse for a rebuttal...especially against those who have experienced in our generations.

I agree, you are correct to remain in the centre of this scale, until such a time when belief becomes personal knowledge...good luck and be careful.

Akushla

Why psychology explanation is bad? Just check the idea of god exist... People around the globe claim it exist without questioning the fact that none can prove

First of all I wish the two unrelated notions of life exclusive to earth in the Universe and extraterrestrial spacecraft visits to earth would stop being used as a sort of crutch logic point blurted out in some sort of defense against the idea that some just don't believe the distances of space has been traversed physically by aliens to ever have arrived here. I don't see a causal relationship between the two.

Just because I never met a native of Tajikistan in my house doesn't mean I don't believe Tajikistan exists. In every token punch-points defending strong beliefs there are analogies used that simply don't stand up alone to logic, I wish more folks would realize that. I also don't have any platinum, but I know it exists, it just never jumped into my jewelry box, that I'm quite sure of.

Originally posted by blackcube

Originally posted by akushla99
Let's just put it this way...
...on the scale of knowledge, belief is closer to the middle than you might think, hence the ease with which one can flip from belief to disbelief...or doubt...

There is only one condition that trumps all naysayers...the experience...
Regardless of the psycho-mumbo-jumbo used to expalin 'away' an experience, the experience remains...mass hallucination over the centuries is a pretty poor excuse for a rebuttal...especially against those who have experienced in our generations.

I agree, you are correct to remain in the centre of this scale, until such a time when belief becomes personal knowledge...good luck and be careful.

Akushla

Why psychology explanation is bad? Just check the idea of god exist... People around the globe claim it exist without questioning the fact that none can prove

Refer to scale of knowledge...

I can tell you how it feels to be in love, but, unless you experience it, it will not 'flesh-out' that part of the knowledge scale you personally possess.

Akushla

reply to post by thesearchfortruth


Some day, the "history" of UFOs/ETs/Contact will be required teaching in schools. I have no doubt but what it will be an officially approved course that will hide much of the truth about how UFOs came to be known to the masses. I can say that because I was present while the whole thing developed. Of course, I was very young in the first days of the current arrival of the UFO--that would be 1947--but as I grew into my teen years I devoured science fiction and anything I could get my hands on that concerned the flying saucers.

Seriously, it is hilarious how younger people can be very interested in UFOs and ETs and have no concept of how the whole situation has developed over the decades with the bits and pieces that tell a fascinating story of the early attempts to understand what was happening.

Watching current TV shows don't do the UFO history justice. For that reason, I highly recommend that anyone interested in UFOs visit used book stores and buy up the old UFO classics. If nothing else, those old books will be valuable some day.

It seems to me to go without saying that we have developed massless craft that mimic the genuine UFOs. That would have been the top priority of the US and USSR governments once they understood that their enemy was not the ones responsible for the marvelous craft. It took them longer to understand the principles of physics involved and get the craft operational.

For you to be saying now that you think the devices are entirely secret government craft is a bit self-defeating because you must ignore--if you ever knew-a wide swathe of UFO history that concerns early landings with sightings of small entities and the later abduction reports. You must contend that for over half a century these amazing craft were withheld from warfare and commercial use.

Actually, you can fairly well date the triangles coming to term during the mid-1970s. Yes, the shuttle is gone and it is clever to suspect that the triangles and our similar craft will replace it as a space vehicle. That seems a definite truth, yet by your argument, If we had the massless drive units of the flying saucers back in the late 1940s, there is no way we would have so heavily invested in developing rockets, the shuttle and a host of other expensive aircraft since.

Originally posted by thesearchfortruth
reply to post by amongus

 

"Don't Stop, Believing. . ."

I do not wish to believe in something that isn't true.

I am not saying aliens are definitely not visiting, I just don't want to blindly believe in something simply because I want to.

I want truth.

edit on 4-2-2012 by thesearchfortruth because: (no reason given)

The truth is already there, with a crap load of supporting evidence, JAL 1628, Bentwaters etc.. etc.. . You obviously don't have an open mind, lack the discretionary ability to filter out signal from the noise, haven't done enough research and are presumptous enough to proclaim yourself a truth seeker?

If you are falling for hoaxes, and the lunacy surrounding the subject either you are incompetent, or in denial. Yes a very high percentage of material on this subforum is full of questionable material but that hasn't deterred me or anybody here who is astute enough to know that there are enough genuine ufo cases that there is not even a need for faith anymore.

I agree though if you can't hack it, it's better to for you to take the blue pill.

reply to post by redrezo


JAL 1628? Bentwaters?

What about these cases.

Please tell me what about these cases is so impressive and unexplainable? What about the performance of the UFO's in these cases tells you they are not top secret military aircraft?

I am a truth seeker. I do have an open mind. I do WANT to believe.

The evidence simply isn't there. Please, I would welcome it if you could prove me wrong.

Originally posted by burntoast
so your telling me that we are the only life in the whole universe?

So your telling me that every other (potential) life form in the whole universe has mastered faster than light space travel?

Originally posted by thesearchfortruth
Now I consider myself 'openminded' about the subject of UFO's.

I believe that UFO's could very easily be top secret military projects...

The fact is, believers and skeptics are both just guessing... There is such a shroud of mystery around this subject different conclusions can be drawn while looking at the same data, just approaching it from a different perspective.

I want to believe. I think many people do.

But I think UFO's could simply be top secret military aircraft.

Is there any evidence against this theory?

edit on 4-2-2012 by thesearchfortruth because: (no reason given)

My reply will probably be considered hostile because I say it like it is and I don't withhold punches. But I find topics such as yours silly because there doesn't seem to be much thinking expressed. Let's break your comments down line by line.

First, you consider yourself openminded about UFOs. Openminded is nowhere in the ballpark. UFOs are, period! At one time, back in the 1950s when the topic was beginning to pick up speed, the main feeling about what was being reported was doubt because only a few had had the experience but you couldn't separate them from the multitude of hoaxers who smelled money. The present: UFOs have been videotaped by millions and they come in all kinds of shapes and sizes and strange behavior. So to express anything but 100% acceptance is ridiculous. Mind you, I'm the first to say that before I accept any claims evidence has to be offered. But we are beyond necessitating evidence.

Second, you believe that "UFO's could very easily be top secret military projects..." You obviously are not aware that beliefs are created by mental conditioning. So who or what conditioned your mind? The few UFO reports that could be traced to secret aerial craft and minimal for all such craft had to depend on wings and when was the last time you saw an image of a real UFO with wings? I've never seen one and I've been in the game since 1957.

Third, I'll cut to the chase. It doesn't matter whether believers or skeptics put in their two cents, the two cents are worthless. If you've seen a UFO, a real, solid sighting not some faraway object you can't identify whether day or night, then you are an accepter because reality is desired.

Fourth, you want to believe? And you think many people do? Believe in what? As I told you, beliefs are created by mental conditioning. If you doubt me, research cults and talk to a cult deprogrammer. You'll be set straight.

Fifth, your final analysis, a repeat, is meaingless for while there will always be secret projects, whether military or civilian, when it comes to aircraft all human creations need wings and motors. UFOs have shown that they do not possess either. Whatever UFOs are, they're here taunting us. Whatever they use to move in the air or hover we have no idea.

Originally posted by burntoast
so your telling me that we are the only life in the whole universe?

Can you provide any evidence to the contrary? I thought so. Yes, we are the only life like ourselves in creation, period!

Originally posted by thesearchfortruth

Originally posted by burntoast
so your telling me that we are the only life in the whole universe?

Where the heck did this assumption come from?

Sorry if I wasn't clear in my OP... I definetly believe in ET life elsewhere in the universe, I am simply no longer convinced it is visiting us.

And, similarly, what evidence can you provide that we were ever visited by other life forms from outside earth? What convinced you that we were visited by ETs?

Where do you people get such thoughts? Why are you so easily convinced by nothing?

Originally posted by thesearchfortruth
reply to post by redrezo

 

JAL 1628? Bentwaters?

What about these cases.

Please tell me what about these cases is so impressive and unexplainable? What about the performance of the UFO's in these cases tells you they are not top secret military aircraft?

I am a truth seeker. I do have an open mind. I do WANT to believe.

The evidence simply isn't there. Please, I would welcome it if you could prove me wrong.

I guess multiple eye-witness testimony from FAA officials, pilots, military officials and radar evidence from several different sites to confirm said sightings, has absolutely no worth to you and any other fool that wants to continue believing that everything in this world is mundane and nothing strange is happening at all. At this point it's called denial not truth-seeking.

Making a claim Top-secret aircraft is even more absurd and irrational than the E.T hypothesis. Why bother spending all that money on gas-guzzling airplanes, waste money on rockets and a space program when we have the ability to fly aircraft at mach 4.5 - 11 while making 90 degree turns in mid air? and vanish in the side of mountains and jump into the sea? Jesus you people will go to such lengths to discredit hypothesis such as E.T or Interdimensional that you guys will resort to anything including turning off your rational-mind (oxymoron) to justify that everything in this world is mundane.


Please keep on taking the blue pill mr. propaganda-seeker err I mean truth-seeker. Your implicit reluctance to question your own said beliefs or even listen to any other person in this thread who doesn't drink the mainstream koolaid belies your disingenuity in claiming 'wanting to believe'.

Unlike you I in came into the UFO subject very skeptical and used to laugh at the E.T hypothesis, with enough serious research I have discovered what reputable and intelligent and open minded people such as J.Allen Hynek (scientist), Leslie Kean (journalist), Stanton Friedman (nuclear physicist) have known now.

If you are asking for the BURDEN OF PROOF from us you are completely lazy and until you actually put in effort yourself you deserve to be ignored or chastized. That's your job not ours.

I guess multiple eye-witness testimony from FAA officials, pilots, military officials and radar evidence from several different sites to confirm said sightings, has absolutely no worth to you

I can't stress this enough... It really does mean something to me. I just don't see why the testimonies and radar returns could be describing a top secret military aircraft instead of an Extra Terrestrial space-craft. Please provide evidence that this is not the case.

In the mean time, I would appreciate it if the constant barrage of insults that is your posts would stop. I am not a propagandist, I simply have a different opinion then you. Live with it.

Believers and their rediculous "you are close minded" "you are a government disinformation specialist" etc....

By the way, I do not dismiss the ET hypothesis. I simply don't see why these sightings couldn't be military air craft. I told you before, I want to believe. I want you to prove me wrong, I really do. When you provide your evidence (it is good evidence) you claim I don't think highly credible witness testimony along with radar returns mean anything. This is false. I do think this is great evidence. But evidence of what? I just still haven't seen any evidence to discredit the theory that these craft are simply military aircraft...

So please stop your endless barrage of insults calling me a "propagana-seeker" and what not. I simpy don't fully agree with your view of things. Please calm down, stop insulting me, and have a mature conversation about his important issue.

Thanks

we have the ability to fly aircraft at mach 4.5 - 11 while making 90 degree turns in mid air

If you believe this is true, what is the evidence for the ET hypothesis? Most of the evidence for the ET hypothesis is that we don't have the technology to do the maneuvers UFOs can make. If we can really do what you claim we can what is the evidence that UFOs are ET?

Why spend money on gas consuming air craft? So we can be the strongest military power on earth.

reply to post by thesearchfortruth


TheSearchfortruth,

I am unsure of what you are trying to get at with this thread. Surely, if you've been a believer and looked into different cases, you have found out that some UFOs out there have properties that we cannot achieve...

Some where so big that it made our Boeing planes look like tinky toys. Massive objects that hover. Without sound. Just to name a few...

And this bugs me:

Believers and their rediculous "you are close minded" "you are a government disinformation specialist" etc....

Yet, your title reads:

I used to be a believer...

Seeing how you label believers in such a way, I do have a hard time believing you were one. Or perhaps, I'm missing something here...

Please explain. Thank you.


Edit To Add :

While I'm at it, could you also explain your reply you've made today, and I quote:

I am convinced that UFOs are not imaginary because of the cases involving physical evidence, radar returns, EM (electro magnetic) effects and multiple witnesses. Flying saucers are real all right, the only question is who's driving them.

Post

In this thread :

Are aliens/ETs real or simply in your mind?

Mysteries...mysteries...

Originally posted by thesearchfortruth




So please stop your endless barrage of insults calling me a "propagana-seeker" and what not. I simpy don't fully agree with your view of things. Please calm down, stop insulting me, and have a mature conversation about his important issue.

Thanks

It's a statement of fact GET OVER IT. The 'Top Secret' Aircraft line is one used by many pseudo-skeptics as well as proponents who are looking for naturalistic explanations to fit into a world-view that adhere to modern scientific dogma and the conventional line of thinking that paranormal doesn't, UFO's don't exist and people that think otherwise are crazy.

The real insult coming from you especially to those directed in this thread is asking us to come up with the BURDEN OF PROOF, while you can take your leisure time at wily nily and act as skeptic on his high horse throwing tomatoes from the back of the classroom.

That's cowardly and I don't appreciate your attempt with trolling tactics, you will not get my respect until you present coherent detailed arguments that

a.) support your thesis

b.) show actual effort.

YOU are the one being immature here, baiting us to waste our time doing the research while you get away like a troll cheap-shotting us with one liners in between, instead of taking responsibility for opening the thread. Sorry, I'm not falling for that trap and anyone here intelligent enough to understand forum politics would be wise to do the same. Even Skeptics with many whom disagree with here, their opinions are respected when they spend the time and energy to elucidate their arguments with research done in articles and so on.

Originally posted by amongus

Originally posted by thesearchfortruth
reply to post by amongus

 

The rest of my post that you seemingly forgot to read explained that I don't dismiss the ET hypothesis. I don't think it definitely 'isn't true'.

I promise you I WANT to believe. But the evidence simply isn't there.

No, I read your post pal. I'm just pissed that because you don't have any physical evidence. . .even though there are millions of personal accounts .. . that you are willing to write it off because of lack of physical evidence. Which there is. .if you look deep enough.

Pal, lol. Millions of personal accounts, blurry vids and pics might be enough for those with too open of a mind to believe in anything....the tooth fairy, bigfoot, religion.....others have developed beyond the lifelong indoctrinated ignorance that allows people like you to believe there is an invisible elf living in my backyard.

But hey, the more believers in this field the better, me and my government agents don't have to waste any time or money discrediting the subject, because folks like you do our job for free. No one takes it seriously, lol.

Millions of personal stories about people that have experience "god" too, but those are just indoctrinated from birth to be ignorant, so their open minds allow them to interpret things the way they are taught. Same with UFO's, people have been indoctrinated from birth about science fiction, dumbed down through the schools and parents who forgot to teach their children logic reason and common sense. This allows them to believe in the absurd, all the while trying to prove what they believe in must be true because of....bla..../bla......bla.....the usual nothing substantial "evidence" that doesn't amount to anything more than someone believing in religion.

Some of us actually need better evidence before we drink the kool-aid, but others like you don't.

Originally posted by amongus

Originally posted by thesearchfortruth
reply to post by amongus

 

"Don't Stop, Believing. . ."

I do not wish to believe in something that isn't true.

Keep convincing yourself that "ignorance is bliss". It's ignorant to think that we are the only beings out there.

No offense, but your statement pisses me off. "isn't true". This is almost a trolling thread for stars and flags.

But, to each their own.

The most common tactic on the planet - the OP is "ignorant" if he/she doesn't believe the propaganda any more. Even doubting is "ignorant". Demonise your opponent.