Israel no match for Iran military might

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posted on Feb, 5 2012 @ 06:52 AM
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reply to post by mikeprodigy
 



Israel has a arsenal of nukes Iran does not


so far the USA have only ever used nukes in anger.. Britain have nukes ..did we use them on Argentina when they invaded the Falkland islands.. if Israel go down the nuke path they will be finished as a nation period.




posted on Feb, 5 2012 @ 07:11 AM
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reply to post by Plotus
 


that is like saying that Mexicans should not be in their ancestral land of Texas, California, and the rest.

Or that Saudi Arabia doesn't deserve its land because they were nomads and didn't have a nation until they built with bricks instead of tents within their borders.

Even the Jewish people then don't deserve that land since they too were nomads that were united under a new form of the known civilized world under Abraham.Maybe the Sumerians, Babylonians, and now Iraq should have it since their people built with bricks there first.

Really it is a skew to justification for taking some one else's land. 5 million people in an area are not nomads, they are all there. Palestinians have a nomadic life style in history at times, but they stay within their ancestors land.

Like Mexicans and the USA. they were there before the USA was formed. It's like saying that the UK should submit to Argentina because they came after that land was England´s but recently the Argies think it's a good idea to live there with no regards for who was there first.


edit on 5-2-2012 by casenately because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 5 2012 @ 07:30 AM
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Israel, IMO, is out of hand.


In 2003, Martin van Creveld, a professor of military history at Israel’s Hebrew University, thought that the Al-Aqsa Intifada then in progress threatened Israel's existence.[19] Van Creveld was quoted in David Hirst's "The Gun and the Olive Branch" (2003) as saying:

"We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets for our air force. Let me quote General Moshe Dayan: 'Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother.' I consider it all hopeless at this point. We shall have to try to prevent things from coming to that, if at all possible. Our armed forces, however, are not the thirtieth strongest in the world, but rather the second or third. We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen before Israel goes under.[20]



posted on Feb, 5 2012 @ 07:34 AM
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I was going to challenge the TS, but when I saw the unbiased source for the information I realised that Iran must be more powerful



posted on Feb, 5 2012 @ 07:39 AM
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reply to post by Dhimmie
 


?????? wahhh!
??????



posted on Feb, 5 2012 @ 07:39 AM
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Just dropping by to say this,

I'm sure that if ATS existed in 1967, most of you Anti-Israel/Zionist/US/West crowd would be opening the same thread, describing (with not even a single ounce of information) how Muslim armies will demolish Israel in a case of war, only to cry and weep afterwards when a decisive Israeli victory is achieved.

What will it be this time? "It's not fair, Israel is funded by the US!" - "They had US backing!" - "Mossad spies ruined it for Iran!"

I don't understand how an Iranian professor's opinion holds any weight over sheer facts.
Now, for the some of you that do enjoy the facts:
Israel's army
Iran's army

As you can see, the IDF not only is way better equipped in terms of technology, it's only outnumbering Iran's in aircrafts and land vehicles.

Iran's air force is simply put outdated, two generations late aircrafts plus very little old helicopters which are completely irrelevant. Link
Phantom? F5? "Saeqeh"? (lol), First generation F14? First generation Mig-29? I mean seriously, have you guys even once checked what do the Iranians even have?

This is Israel's airforce
Nothing even needs to be mentioned other than the fact that there is an armada of latest generation F15 Eagles and F16 Falcons. That alone can pretty much tear apart anything the Iranians launch.
Do I even need to mention IAF's pilots being consistently in the world's top 3?

Land vehicles does not even need to be mentioned and compared as this war will not reach the stages of land warfare, but even if I do it, the Iranians don't have any better equipped armor than the MKIV Merkava, hell, even the MKIII is better than anything they can pull.



Now for something else..
The people who keep mention Iraq/Afghanistan wars tend to forget one simple fact - US may not achieved decisive victory in terms of completely annihilating Taliban/Al Qaeda, but the fact remains that Iraq had pretty much lost everything it's army had to offer in 3 weeks. Three weeks, is all it took to completely dismantle Iraq's army, including the government's resignation. Kill ratio in Afghanistan? Anyone of you has any clue about it?

All in all, the objectives were not 100% achieved, but in terms of war US tore apart both Iraq and Afghanistan. The occupying part was what became a let down.

There will be no occupying of Iran. It's going to be an all out war, and that means heavy bombardments of strategic targets and not anything less. Ground troops will not even be used other than special ops and infiltration assignments.



But nevertheless, the rabid Anti-Everything-Western bunch of you will still claim Iranian victory before this whole joke of a conflict even started. It's pretty sad to see such a detached from reality mentality around here.. It's only getting worse with time.



posted on Feb, 5 2012 @ 07:46 AM
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reply to post by IsraeliGuy
 




I agree we tore up Iraq and the such. We made more of a reason to attack us while supplying a new source of recruits for terrorism where there was none before.

He is a professor of military history at Israel’s Hebrew University, that's why his opinion carries weight.


and again, you put faith in your weapons or your soldiers, you lose before you start since you never put real faith in your cause. It must be disguised or made to look noble by extreme and aggressive tactics. If it were self evident people would be telling you instead of you forcing them to see.



posted on Feb, 5 2012 @ 07:52 AM
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reply to post by IsraeliGuy
 


How much 'air space' does Israel have?

Israel is basically indefensible.

Netanyahu said that himself.
edit on 5-2-2012 by theubermensch because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 5 2012 @ 07:54 AM
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Originally posted by casenately
I agree we tore up Iraq and the such. We made more of a reason to attack us while supplying a new source of recruits for terrorism where there was none before.

He is a professor of military history at Israel’s Hebrew University, that's why his opinion carries weight.


and again, you put faith in your weapons or your soldiers, you lose before you start since you never put real faith in your cause. It must be disguised or made to look noble by extreme and aggressive tactics. If it were self evident people would be telling you instead of you forcing them to see.

Oh how I love it when in a discussion of a military might, one of the sides starts using morality issues.

As far as I care we could have zero morality and legitimacy for our actions, but now we are discussing military might are we not? I don't think this even needs to be an issue here. But this board is strange enough as it is so I take it as this is your tactic for this kind of debates.

And so what if he's a professor in Israel? It barely matters when you consider the facts. Now, if a Israeli military officer would say something like "Iran's army is much stronger than Israel's", then it will hold some weight.
Edit - thread's OP wrote he's a "Tehran University Professor". You seriously need to either check your facts or set your version straight with the OP. One of you made a fatal error on this one. :p



Originally posted by theubermensch
How much 'air space' does Israel have?

Israel is basically indefensible.

Netanyahu said that himself.

Netanyaho says alot of things to get his support. I'm sure you'd notice that by now.

When a smaller country has more air power it is easier for it to defend it's territories than a huge country with a very scattered air force.
Israel's territory is completely covered by IAF aircrafts. I can't believe you even brought up this point.
edit on 5-2-2012 by IsraeliGuy because: (no reason given)
edit on 5-2-2012 by IsraeliGuy because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 5 2012 @ 08:05 AM
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reply to post by IsraeliGuy
 





TextNetanyaho says alot of things to get his support. I'm sure you'd notice that by now.


I have. Im glad you admit he is a liar.

But I would be worried about the 'air space' if I was you. Not only is your airspace tiny but your population is concentrated in a very small area. It would not be hard to wipe you from the map.You are barley on it.



posted on Feb, 5 2012 @ 08:05 AM
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reply to post by IsraeliGuy
 


yes, and moral VS morality have a large part in any conflict. Why can some soldiers endure attrition and hardships while others cant in far less difficult circumstances. Why do some find allies everywhere willing to risk their personal security for their cause, while some must force their support.

It is part of war according to Sun Tzu. The mind of your men and your opponents is a HUGE issue.
Israel is wound up so tight it can't even think straight. That does not fare well should a little defeat make strides in their ultimate submission. If war was to break out (which I doubt) they will have a population of liabilities scared it less for too long to resist the ruling authority. It is very dangerous for a people to be strung up on fear and defensiveness. It makes them weak.

Not to mention morality is at the foundation of Israel´s defense of its stance. They own that land thanks to a moral imperative for justice in compensating for its theft from them so long ago. Just like the USA has a moral imperative to police the world. It effects your overall readiness because you have beat that war drum so many times its out of tune. It serves as no rally call for your support.
edit on 5-2-2012 by casenately because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 5 2012 @ 08:12 AM
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reply to post by mikeprodigy
 



Israel has a arsenal of nukes Iran does not.


Yes, and what do you think the world would do to Israel if they used any of those nukes? The use of nukes on Iran would surely doom Israel.



posted on Feb, 5 2012 @ 08:28 AM
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reply to post by Darkmask
 


They will use them strategically and say it's the only way they could penetrate the nuclear facilities. There are already articles talking about this. They are saying that neither Israel or the US have bombs powerful enough to destroy the underground facilities and that they would likely have to use tactical nukes.
If I can find the article I'll post, but it shouldn't be too hard to google. Try U.S. bombs aren't strong enough/iran.



posted on Feb, 5 2012 @ 08:31 AM
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Originally posted by Xcathdra

Originally posted by Tw0Sides
Cmon, do you look under your bed for the bogeyman too.

No, but then again the boogyman who does live under my bed is not giving speeches calling for wiping Israel off the map nor is he building a nuclear program capable of allowing nuclear bombs to be produced.



Originally posted by Tw0Sides
Lets keep our feet on the ground, and leave fictional characters to fiction.

Iran warns world of coming great event

“In light of the realization of the divine promise by almighty God, the Zionists and the Great Satan (America) will soon be defeated,” Ayatollah Khamenei, the Iranian supreme leader, is warning.

Khamenei, speaking to hundreds of youths from more than 70 countries attending a world conference on the Arab Spring just days ago, told a cheering crowd in Tehran that “Allah’s promises will be delivered and Islam will be victorious.”

You are entitled to your pro-war opinion.
However, the "wipe off the map" quoted again and again is a lie, proven in numerious threads.
Unless we are sinking to the level of Ahmadinedjad (and Ehud Barak), we should not base our arguments on proven lies.
Just search it in ATS, no need to google.



posted on Feb, 5 2012 @ 08:35 AM
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This professor has no idea of what he is talking about. Iran is mostly consisted of Shia islam followers.
Almost all arab world is consisted of Sunni islam, most of sunni followers countries are hostile toward shia islamists. For example in Iraq there is ongoing terrorist conflict between shia and sunni islam groups.



posted on Feb, 5 2012 @ 08:47 AM
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reply to post by piotrburz
 


yeah he seems a little too eager to end the world out of spite. I don't think he was being sincere. Crapola.

Listen people, if you are being told to fear something, fear the people insisting to you to be scared. Like your mom saying the boogey man will get you if you do this or that. It is meant to help you, supposedly ,but how do you know that she is acting in your best interests.

Maybe the boogey man excuse is used because she is tired and doesn't want to put up with your crap.
We trust our mothers, so that is mute. But do you trust your government? Are they qualified to address your worries without bias?

If your government is trying to convince you that there is a great threat the likes of which will end all life as you know it, see that they are going over the top. They are probably lying to you. Please, dont be so dumb.

Don't let mom tell you to go to bed at the ripe age of how ever old you are because the boogey man will get you. She probably is just using your fear against you. You decide if it is out of love. How many mothers do you REALLY have? Last I checked 1. the rest are imposters to that trust.



posted on Feb, 5 2012 @ 08:49 AM
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Why do I think some on here will cheer if this happens. I will always see Israel as our first line of defense against extremist elements of Islam - which hold positions in power in the middle east.
edit on 5-2-2012 by MidnightTide because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 5 2012 @ 08:52 AM
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I think that is exactly what Iran wants, everybody else underestimating their "firepower". War has no rules and military "firepower" means nothing. The US has experienced that numerous times. Losers in Afghanistan, losers in Vietnam, did they really win any war? There is a first time for everything and that is something the Zionist regime has yet to learn.

Let me quote Albert Pike:


The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the"agentur" of the "Illuminati" between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism (the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other.

Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral,spiritual and economical exhaustion«We shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction,anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of
Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view. This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time."



Now check similarities to the world we live in.



edit on 5-2-2012 by ALF88 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 5 2012 @ 08:53 AM
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I have been offline all night .... actually had to go to work !

Thanks to ALL posters for keeping this entire topic as civil as possible with only one Mod (mild) warning !!
(Thank You seagull !)

The debate is very informative.

Obviously we are seeing a media play at work.

All sides are condemning each other and the media is fueling the fire.

IMO, maybe Iran will see a military "coup d'état" very soon.

That might solve the whole problem.

Look for the usual players to take control and at the same time, satisfy the populations of all countries involved.

The question is:

will Iran become a democracy?

will Iran become a "Shah" regime as has been the case in the past.

will Iran become complete military dictatorship.

Either way, TPTB will have financial control with plenty of "outside" business interests.



posted on Feb, 5 2012 @ 09:06 AM
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As to the title of the thread: yes it is. Also, it depends upon where and when. If attacked, or if it attacks.
If Iran directly attacks Israel, killing a large number of civilians, they might be soon wiped off the map.
If Israel starts a war of aggression against a tricky and unsympathetic regime, it could turn the opinion of history against Israel though. People will say after the World War: Never again!

It seems this whole thing, as endless threads so far did, keeps on revolving around one single issue:
whether a war of aggression by Israel is justified.

Well it is clearly not. Read this:
War of Aggression
Plus the fact that it is illegal according to UN standards the US is participatory to.

It is against core Western values. It is like a policeman arresting you without probable cause. Merely because they don't like your face or your political stance. I agree Ahmadinedjad is nasty as was Saddam. But are we judging this in a fair and impartial manner or simply taking sides?

Otherwise it will quickly degenerate into a tribal war without any moral principles. Two tribes are ready to fight it out: Iran and Israel. (Plus a third one: Sunnis). Both have Theocratic leadership, one has more nukes and tech the other has more defensive capabilities on its own soil. And the rest of the world is supposed to take sides in this insane Theocratic fight.

Haaretz had an article the other day on a poll conducted in today's Israel - well, close to 80% believed they are granted the land by God. (I actualy doubt that the same percentage of Iranians would really believe in the 12th Imam, or that an aggressive war against a lot of advanced nations can be won.) I cannot find the source but it was a few days back. Haaretz writers - liberal cosmopolitan Jews I sympathize with - were devastated. (It confirms my suspicion that hundreds of thousands of liberal Jews had left Israel because they felt the military right is destroying the country.)

If independent intelligence proves that the Iranian leadership actually wants to smuggle nukes to Hezbollah then I would support strikes (after UN measures) to take the threatening installations out. But that is yet to be proven.

What we have now is Israeli sources (close to the extremist government) saying every second day that they think Iran is ready to build the bomb etc. Every second day. No matter if uranium enrichment is only 20% which is not useful for bombs. Well they are not exactly in a position to judge the matter with any degree of objectivity. As much as I sympathize with Israel, that would be a steep claim. And so very-very Middle Eastern.

It is only thinly veiled that they simply want to attack another country in an act of aggressive warfare, not even bothering to manufacture an incident to justify it. Return to Bushist doctrines.

Well to refresh history, that is partly what differentiated the US from the Japanese Empire. Otherwise it would have been simply one against teh other
Pearl Harbor.

We seem to have forgotten all that and sank into the amoral morass of a tribal us versus them mentality.
Who cares about niceties when Israel and Iran are about to fight it out and we are sided with Israel?

Well I do. And many others. From the moment Bush took on with his fascist rhetoric I refused to go back to the US. Because this stuff with preemptive warfare is simply non-Western mentality, it is amodern, medieval. No wonder the guy was a religious nutcase who admitted to French press that he was told by God to attack Iraq.

So how different is that from Khamenei? Well Khamenei is more upfront.
That is the only difference I see.

Bu I would love to see more difference. Because that is what made us the democratic West. That difference.

It would be a useless argument in a totalitarian country that police has to have probable cause and courts would have to have material evidence to arrest or imprison people. It would be a mere nicety, armchair philosophy in the face of might makes right.

The same applies to international law. It did not matter to Hirohito that it was illegal to bomb the forces of another country without provocation. He felt the Empire was stonger.

He was wrong.
We still have a choice to think like Hirohito or like Roosevelt. Or, if we already lost our difference, and we simply attack yet another country without justification, like we did Iraq, I feel it is the start of the going down. And then I actually no longer care which side wins. (As if a nuclear confrontation could be won at all...)

WW2 was won partly on the basis of morals, not only army superiority. As the war progressed, more and more people - civilians, partisans, resistance etc. all over the world felt bad about the Nazis, the Italian and Japanese fascists. Even Stalin seemed better at the time. Notable Western military and state leaders appealed to a sense of morals. Not only "might makes right" and sheer superiority of force





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