It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
Originally posted by LeBombDiggity
Sorry to intrude on another British civil war.
But Pr0t0 does have some interesting points, as does Stumason. If only they toned it down a notch how much more enjoyable the thread would be.
Self determination is what the British quote here. And that's fair enough, it's enshrined in the UN charter, that peoples have the absolute right to determine their own fate, without any form of external let or hindrance.
But how far do you take that ?
I ask because I'm genuinely confused. Because many patriotic British contributors here want self determination for Britain (to get them out of the EU), they want self determination for the Falkland Islands (to keep them British) ... but the same people here would deny self determination to the Scots and the Welsh people, for them to hold referendums to separate. Or as the English majority, they'd impose % conditions on the Scots and Welsh, write them twisted referendum questions, time the vote to maximum disadvantage and such like.
That's what I don't understand. Some of you are two faced when it comes to self determination. You'd grant it to some yet deny it to others.
Without massive British intervention, the Îles Malouines have historically been quite unable to support themselves. Without that help, the population would have slowly dwindled away and, eventually, those little bits of rock would have naturally passed over to Argentina.
I don't buy the idea that the Falklander Islanders are some native population, worthy of even self determination. They're too few in number. They're the type of person you might meet on any High Street in England. They're genetically British. They're British, not some indigenous population of different race, colour, religion etc. So their continued presence on those islands is colonial, that's what I honestly believe. They have no natural right to be there, their presence is alien.
They're no more worthy of self determination than the Isle of Wight.
In no way does that mean that any Argentinian occupation is any more legitimate. I'm merely saying that it'd make much more sense if the islands had been under Argentinian jurisdiction due to their proximity to South America, that's all.
But here the discovery of oil changes everything. Because the Îles Malouines could actually become self sustaining. They'll be able to pay their own bills, they might even be able to contribute substantially to their own defences. They'd be able to do things themselves & not rely on the British Exchequer to support them any more. And I suppose that makes the case for the islands staying British colonial even stronger.
Still, as they stand just now, the islands no more deserve self determination than Southall or Bradford deserve to become either Indian or Pakistani. Because the people who live there, well, they're just invaders really. A few generations may have passed since the original invasion but their continued presence doesn't justify a thing.
I think the islands should for all practical purposes become Argentinian but adopt a handsoff Hong Kong type lease status, say 250 years. Then everyone can stay happy ... and alive.
Because it's such an insubstantial issue, all this talk of war is stupid.
Originally posted by pikestaff
Who was it had to spent vast amounts of money freeing Europe from Napoleon? Twice?
Who was bankrupted, twice, in the last century, fighting a middle European country?
Originally posted by LeBombDiggity
Originally posted by pikestaff
Who was it had to spent vast amounts of money freeing Europe from Napoleon? Twice?
Who was bankrupted, twice, in the last century, fighting a middle European country?
Well, it wasn't you that's for sure.
Self determination is what the British quote here. And that's fair enough, it's enshrined in the UN charter, that peoples have the absolute right to determine their own fate, without any form of external let or hindrance.
I ask because I'm genuinely confused. Because many patriotic British contributors here want self determination for Britain (to get them out of the EU), they want self determination for the Falkland Islands (to keep them British) ... but the same people here would deny self determination to the Scots and the Welsh people, for them to hold referendums to separate. Or as the English majority, they'd impose % conditions on the Scots and Welsh, write them twisted referendum questions, time the vote to maximum disadvantage and such like.
Originally posted by LeBombDiggity
reply to post by Freeborn
It's for the Scots to decide whether they want a vote on independence, what the question will be & when that vote will be held.
Scots. That's because they're the ones exercising their right to self determination.
With every caveat you attach to this issue, you're removing their rights to determine their own fate.
That's what you and many of the English contributors here cannot understand. One rule for the Falkland Islands, the same rule for the UK vis a vis the EU ... and another rule for the Scots.
Also to add. Few realise yet how heated and divisive this issue will become. Blood will spill in pubs, mark my words.
I don't call you a liar. I just don't think you appreciate the subtleties involved.
Originally posted by LeBombDiggity
reply to post by justwokeup
So. You're saying that London politicians and the Westminster Parliament are acting as a safeguard for "Scotland's Best Interests" ... are they ? The English looking after the Scots ?
In your dreams.
So much for the UN Charter and the rights of self determination.
Because there's no self determination if some other nation is pulling the strings.
Originally posted by LeBombDiggity
reply to post by justwokeup
I think we're both deviating somewhat from the thread.
But some here demonstrate hypocrisy when it comes to the right of self determination.
And I'll leave the thread with that.
Adieu.