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Why my mind is closing towards Capitalism

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posted on Feb, 4 2012 @ 07:47 PM
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Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Many dictators thought that they were doing what was best for their nation, even though they were doing the contrary...

Like I said, funny that description sounded exactly like what happens in socialist/communist dictatorships...

BTW, can you tell me who said the following quotes?...

It isn't a matter of doing the right thing for a country or not but, what the fascist proposal was based on. I have already explained that the similarities with communism is that they are both totalitarian. He even says:


Anti-individualistic, the Fascist conception of life stresses the importance of the State and accepts the individual only in so far as his interests coincide with those of the State, which stands for the conscience and the universal, will of man as a historic entity (11).


Meaning the individual is free to do as long as his actions are also in benefit of the state. Free to engage in trade or do business as he wishes. In other words, capitalism.

In this quote:


"If the bourgeoisie think they will find lightning conductors in us they are the more deceived; we must start work at once .... We want to accustom the working class to real and effectual leadership".


They are actually two different ideas and you chopped the second in half. It is actually:


We wish the working classes to accustom themselves to the responsibilities of management so that they may realize that it is no easy matter to run a business...

I understand it as, the worker has to get used to the idea that the business owner has a right to profit. That is as capitalist as it gets.


BTW, can you also tell us to what party did Mussolini belong to for most of his life before being in power? And I am not talking about him being a leader in the socialist party...oops I said which party he belonged to...


For a third of my life I belived certain ideas were right. One day I realized that I didn't agree with them anymore and stopped.

He was the son of a socialist, which I'm sure influenced his early life. When he was in power he made sure that businesses were given the freedom to operate as they wished. That is capitalism.


edit on 4-2-2012 by daskakik because: (no reason given)




posted on Feb, 4 2012 @ 07:47 PM
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Originally posted by JimmyNeutron
By your own earlier admission Mussolini implemented fascism. I can't remember about Pinochet so won't even address it.

Fascism is totalitarian capitalism. You probably think that is an oxymoron but it doesn't change the fact that state capitalism was the economic model of fascism.


You being content or not is the point when you champion one economic model over another.



Then why on earth did you bring it up??? Not offended, just asking...

Actually it says it is the point.


edit on 4-2-2012 by daskakik because: (no reason given)

edit on 4-2-2012 by daskakik because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 4 2012 @ 07:49 PM
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Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
...


The U.S. has a violence rate of 466 crimes per 100,000 residents, Canada 935, Australia 92 and South Africa 1,609.
...


www.dailymail.co.uk...


edit on 4-2-2012 by ElectricUniverse because: (no reason given)


Although you are doing fine on your own - Good find on the statistics.



posted on Feb, 4 2012 @ 07:55 PM
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reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


I didn't say you did...

I meant educated in history which was the topic at hand when discussing the actions of Mussolini and Hitler. I also meant educated in politics, you clearly have no idea what socialism is and you think you know through lies that have been fed to you. All that is relevant to this thread, which you knowing different languages isn't.



posted on Feb, 4 2012 @ 08:03 PM
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Originally posted by daskakik

He was the son of a socialist, which I'm sure influenced his early life. When he was in power he made sure that businesses were given the freedom to operate as they wished.


I hate blanket statements and must object to the one about Mussolini giving business the freedom to operate as they wished. That is not entirely true. It depends on the business and whether they were part of the "in" crowd or not.



posted on Feb, 4 2012 @ 08:09 PM
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reply to post by JimmyNeutron
 

Sorry but earlier in the post it states the professed requirements of, "being in the interest of the state".

The buddy system also exists in the US but nobody seems to have a problem calling the US a capitalist country.

edit on 4-2-2012 by daskakik because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 4 2012 @ 08:09 PM
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Originally posted by daskakik


You being content or not is the point when you champion one economic model over another.



Then why on earth did you bring it up??? Not offended, just asking...

Actually it says it is the point.


Okay - I think I'm too tired... I am still not sure what you are getting at.

And I want to clear something up. I champion free markets although I also don't think they work entirely in their pure form. I champion capitalism inasmuch as it enables free markets - which it does imperfectly. I in no way am satisfied with the form it has taken. I'm sure that is because it has come to resemble fascism and not capitalism.



posted on Feb, 4 2012 @ 08:09 PM
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I in no way am satisfied with the form it has taken. I'm sure that is because it has come to resemble fascism and not capitalism.

I would say that you dislike the totalitarian aspect of it. As for fascism being capitalist, the ideology of the spanish fascists may be clearer. At least as proposed by wikipedia:


The political canon of Falange resembled that of Italy's Partito Nazionale Fascista. It shared its dislike of Marxism and its contempt for democracy. It sought to bridge the gap between patriotism and Marxist internationalism by rejecting the concept of class warfare while conceding the exploitation of the working class under capitalism.

edit on 4-2-2012 by daskakik because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 4 2012 @ 08:15 PM
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Originally posted by daskakik

It isn't a matter of doing the right thing for a country or not but, what the fascist proposal was based on. I have already explained that the similarities with communism is that they are both totalitarian. He even says:


Anti-individualistic, the Fascist conception of life stresses the importance of the State and accepts the individual only in so far as his interests coincide with those of the State, which stands for the conscience and the universal, will of man as a historic entity (11).


Meaning the individual is free to do as long as his actions are also in benefit of the state. Free to engage in trade or do business as he wishes. In other words, capitalism.


WOW... You truly are trying hard to twist the truth... in that quote he clearly is saying that individuality is not above the "state" or "the needs of the many exceed the needs of the one"...

The above quote is something that exists in SOCIALISM/COMMUNISM, not in capitalism...

In the quote he even says the interests of the state stand for the concience and the universal.

BTW, last I checked "concience and the universal" have nothing to do with business...

You are failing really bad at twisting what he said to meet your needs...

BTW, for the 100th time, you need to learn that Capitalism is not a form of government, it is an economic system...

socialism/communism are forms of government.


Originally posted by daskakik
In this quote:


"If the bourgeoisie think they will find lightning conductors in us they are the more deceived; we must start work at once .... We want to accustom the working class to real and effectual leadership".


They are actually two different ideas and you chopped the second in half. It is actually:


We wish the working classes to accustom themselves to the responsibilities of management so that they may realize that it is no easy matter to run a business...

I understand it as, the worker has to get used to the idea that the business owner has a right to profit. That is as capitalist as it gets.


You are twisting again the quote...

"We want to accustom the working-class to real and effectual leadership, and also to convince them that it is no easy thing to run a business"

Perhaps you have no idea of this but businesses/corporations exist in socialism... They are often referred to as "cooperative enterprises"...


Originally posted by daskakik
He was the son of a socialist, which I'm sure influenced his early life. When he was in power he made sure that businesses were given the freedom to operate as they wished. That is capitalism.


That is corporatism, because corporations were part of his government, that is not capitalism...

BTW, Mussolini only knew about socialism, and he says so in at least one of his quotes, he developed Fascism from what he knew about socialism and what he thought would work...


edit on 4-2-2012 by ElectricUniverse because: errors



posted on Feb, 4 2012 @ 08:16 PM
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reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 

The above quote is something that exists in SOCIALISM/COMMUNISM, not in capitalism...

Actually it can and did exist in both. Maybe the correct way to say it is that both socialism and capitalism can exist in totalitarian states.

Read the post before yours. "Exploitation of the working class under capitalism", plus it's from wikipedia so you know it's good.
edit on 4-2-2012 by daskakik because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 4 2012 @ 08:18 PM
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Originally posted by Tea4One

I didn't say you did...

I meant educated in history which was the topic at hand when discussing the actions of Mussolini and Hitler. I also meant educated in politics, you clearly have no idea what socialism is and you think you know through lies that have been fed to you. All that is relevant to this thread, which you knowing different languages isn't.


... I am in educated in history... Unlike you who obviously have only read books by socialists/communists...

I know EXACTLY what socialism/communism are... Unlike YOU, I lived them... You only read them from the twisted point of view of other socialists/communists...

I know leftwingers like yourself THINK you are more educated than people like me, but you are not.

If you want to discuss anything, present an intelligent and concise argument; something which you haven't done so far.


edit on 4-2-2012 by ElectricUniverse because: errors



posted on Feb, 4 2012 @ 08:34 PM
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Originally posted by daskakik

Actually it can and did exist in both. Maybe the correct way to say it is that both socialism and capitalism can exist in totalitarian states.


Do you understand that capitalism is FREE MARKET?... How can there be anything FREE in totalitarian states?...

Capitalism CAN'T exist in totalitarian states... Corporatism can, but not Capitalism...


edit on 4-2-2012 by ElectricUniverse because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 4 2012 @ 08:39 PM
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reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


Clearly not if you think Hitler and Mussolini ran socialist states.

I've read Marx, I've read Engels, I've read Lenin but I've also read Adam Smith, I've also read Ron Paul. I've read a various amount of political thought, I've read what socialism truly is. I've read history from the eyes of Marxists yes, but I've also read it from the eyes of social historians, economic historians and cultural historians.

You're accusing me of not having a concise argument but yet you're wrong to the very core of what we're talking about. You have no idea what socialism is, you have no idea what is meant by cooperative enterprises when I have explained it to you, you have no idea about the propaganda that the fascists have shouted to gain the workers vote.

www.merriam-webster.com...

en.wikipedia.org...

www.differencebetween.net... e-between-communism-and-fascism/



posted on Feb, 4 2012 @ 08:50 PM
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Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Do you understand that capitalism is FREE MARKET?... How can there be anything FREE in totalitarian states?...

Capitalism CAN'T exist in totalitarian states... Corpocratism can, but not Capitalism...

Actually capitalism doesn't always mean free markets. It is one type of capitalism, but that kind doesn't really exist. Capitalism according to wikipedia means:


There is general agreement that elements of capitalism include private ownership of the means of production, creation of goods or services for profit or income, the accumulation of capital, competitive markets, voluntary exchange and wage labor.


The US doesn't have free markets, but it is still called capitalist, so why wouldn't it also apply to fascist countries?


edit on 4-2-2012 by daskakik because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 4 2012 @ 08:58 PM
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Originally posted by Chewingonmushrooms
To the OP, good thread and I agree on several points that you addressed.


reply to post by AwakeinNM
 


Socialism and communism aren't the same thing for one, for two that closest resembles "communism" (not socialism) as practiced not the theory behind it. You also forgot to add "in theory" and "as practiced" in your capitalism photo shop.

BTW that is about as biased, pro-capitalism display as you can get.


edit on 2-2-2012 by Chewingonmushrooms because: (no reason given)


Hmm.. So I am pro-capitalist and biased against socialism. I guess that aligns me pretty well with the founding fathers of this country. I'll take that as a compliment.



posted on Feb, 4 2012 @ 09:06 PM
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Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by ImaFungi
what are some reasons why you wouldn't want to see a change in consciousness and systems to promote quality life and work for all?


Because a little bit of inequality is a good "school of life". It promotes a little competitive creativity. A completely level playing field turns into...North Korea.


True socialism has an alternative to what you say, and it is proven to be effective.

The state owns the excess wealth (that in capitalist society the rich would own) and uses it to fund projects. Without this system, there would be no such thing as the space race because the Soviets wouldn't have provoked it, and the Americans wouldn't have responded because there would be no competition, and thus no interest or profitable enterprise in doing it on their own.


Wrong. Do you know what the money gets spent on? Huge compounds for the party leaders, exotic cars, private planes, all that "rich people stuff".

Another example of someone believing that the world operates on theories.



posted on Feb, 4 2012 @ 09:20 PM
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Originally posted by Tea4One

Clearly not if you think Hitler and Mussolini ran socialist states.

I've read Marx, I've read Engels, I've read Lenin but I've also read Adam Smith, I've also read Ron Paul. I've read a various amount of political thought, I've read what socialism truly is. I've read history from the eyes of Marxists yes, but I've also read it from the eyes of social historians, economic historians and cultural historians.
...


You have only shown that you have read SOME quotes from those people, but you do not truly know their writings that well.

BTW, I am not the only one that "thinks" Mussolini and Hitler were socialists, and invented new branches of socialism known as fascism. Several historians say the same thing, and the most important thing is that what they implemented were leftist ideologies, not rightwing.

A lot of people, more so leftwingers, do not understand that the extreme of rightwing is a stateless society, almost similar to anarchism,, but that also leads to chaos.

What people like me want is small government, and more individual freedom.

What leftwing ideologies want is more government, which in the extreme cases of socialsim and communism leads to complete state control, and or corporation control, claiming they serve the people.

Centralization of all means of production, central banks, progressive taxes, and consolidation of all power are ideas part of leftwing ideology, and all of these existed in Mussolini's Italian fascist state, and in HItler's national socialist state, which was another form of fascism.




edit on 4-2-2012 by ElectricUniverse because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 4 2012 @ 09:23 PM
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One thing that leftwingers can't seem to understand is that if those in power, including the bankers in control of central banks, the world bank and the IMF were all rightwing, then why do they propose socialism as the answer?

Every world organization is leftwing, from the UN, EU, IMF, The World Bank, etc, and even people in power, or who were in power have said that their goal is for the One World Government...

A One World government can only be achieved through socialism/communism, not through capitalism.

In capitalism there is a FREE MARKET, and in a One World government there wouldn't be a free market, just like there hasn't been a free market for a long time.
edit on 4-2-2012 by ElectricUniverse because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 4 2012 @ 09:39 PM
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reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


You're thinking on a single axis but real world politics is more like a cartesian graph. Not sure if you have seen this before. Left/right is economics (centralized/free market). Up/down is authority (totalitarian/liberal).



When viewed in this way you can see how both capitalism can exist in totalitarian governments, and socialism can be free of government. If you can't, then it's because your life experience has closed your mind. This is probably the reason that, no matter what you are shown, you refuse to accept it.



posted on Feb, 4 2012 @ 10:57 PM
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