Why my mind is closing towards Capitalism

Originally posted by theubermensch

Originally posted by aravoth
reply to post by theubermensch

 

rofl, sounds like a nice comfy New World Order, hope it works out for you. Can't imagine it will though, most of your don't even own firearms because you're all anti-gun, so good luck forcing people to live in communes.

Im a socialist not a limp wristed liberal.

A revolutionary socialist beats an 'all talk,do nothing,capitalist neocon' everytime.

Yep... It's when the dust settles and you're forced to live by your principles that it all breaks down. As long as the social agenda agrees with your ideas you are fine... I sit here and laugh at your naivete. Yuri Bremenov called your kind useful idiots. The communists use your naive philosophies and ideological vigor as a way to further their cause - not yours.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Thats true. Scandinavians are extremely efficient. We can learn plenty from them.

I think the main difference is they are not spending their tax dollars on spreading capitalist interests around the world like the US and UK are doing.

This is your tax dollars...

Total Cost of Wars Since 2001 $1,298,654,565,547

costofwar.com...

Originally posted by theubermensch

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by theubermensch

You still havent said 'Woodrow Wilson'

Im impressed.

Socialists arent going to go and hide in the woods. Our numbers are growing by the day. Real change means global socialism. Socialism for America.

This way it comes.

Really?... Well, you will find yourself with an oposition of billions of people, millions of which will be armed to the teeth...

I hope you are more than willing to pay the price...

You dont think socialists own guns?

Come with us comrade

And there you go showing your true @ss colors... Forcing socialism at the point of a gun ain't socialism.

Originally posted by ANOK



costofwar.com...

As a passionate capitalist I can assure you that war is not in my interest. Building a prosperous and happy society is in my interest. Giving people the fruits of my monetary gain is in my interest.

reply to post by Skyfloating

Actually Mussolini proposed Totalitarian Capitalism. This is the one that your living in. That is why you are forced to give to the state and why businesses are forced to jump through hoops to conduct business and must bow to the EPA and other federal agencies.

Originally posted by JimmyNeutron
And there you go showing your true @ss colors... Forcing socialism at the point of a gun ain't socialism.

You don't think capitalism is forced at the point of a gun?

The socialists and anarchists in the Spanish revolution were all armed and carrying. But then again there was a civil war going on.

No guns are not anti-socialist. Don't be confused with neo-liberals.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
As a passionate capitalist I can assure you that war is not in my interest. Building a prosperous and happy society is in my interest. Giving people the fruits of my monetary gain is in my interest.

Well I doubt you are actually a capitalist, do you earn your living from your capital and the hiring of labour?

If not you are a worker like the rest of us.

But regardless wars have been fought for capitalist interest for centuries. Why do you think the British invaded India and Africa and wages wars with them? Why do you think we want to go to war with Iran, or the long wars with the rest of the ME? It's not to save us from terrorists lol.

Originally posted by ANOK
Well I doubt you are actually a capitalist, do you earn your living from your capital and the hiring of labour?

I invest, hire and earn money from my capital.

But regardless wars have been fought for capitalist interest for centuries. Why do you think the British invaded India and Africa and wages wars with them? Why do you think we want to go to war with Iran, or the long wars with the rest of the ME? It's not to save us from terrorists lol.

Wars are conflicts of interests. Such conflicts arise from varying views and intentions that are culturally, sociologically and economically very complex. Your simplistic view of conflict does not do the topic justice.

Originally posted by theubermensch
reply to post by ElectricUniverse

 

We already went over this with Lenin.

Lincoln is a mass murderer is what you are saying?

Yes! The United State's Civil War was not originally about emancipating slaves... The main cause is arguable, but the result is that a Leviathan state arose from the ashes because state's rights guaranteed by the constitution became toothless.

Don't believe all the fables you hear about Lincoln. While I do not impugn his sincerity or motives, the result brought us to where we are today. It was a complete bastardization of Jeffersonian/Lockean ideals. The reality is that Hamilton won! Not just in the U.S. but around the world.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

France, Germany, Denmark and Sweden have right-wing Governments. Portugal and Greece, who are bankrupt have had left-wing Governments.

You are still confused, those so called left wing governments are not really left wing.

Just like people call the dems in the US left wing, they're not.

They are just different levels of right wing.

I don't want a 'left wing' government, I want liberty, libertarian socialism. Left wing and government is an oxymoron imo.

So you all can keep waffling on using so called left wing governments to demonize socialism, but all your are doing is helping spread the propaganda you have all fallen for. I wish you would do some real research, and actually study the working class struggle since the industrial revolution, and you will see how political and economic terms have been twisted to demonize socialism, and convince you to accept a system that doesn't have your best interest at heart.

Deny ignorance eh?

The original political meanings of ‘left’ and ‘right’ have changed since their origin in the French estates general in 1789. There the people sitting on the left could be viewed as more or less anti-statists with those on the right being state-interventionists of one kind or another. In this interpretation of the pristine sense, libertarianism was clearly at the extreme left-wing.

www.la-articles.org.uk...

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
For these people it seems that it wasn't enough that their ideologies murdered over 110 million people, and imprisoned millions more because they would not accept socialism/communism...

I think the 110 million people number is a pretty conservative estimate. The numbers I came up with were closer to the 300 million mark (which I think is still pretty conservative) if you look at all the wars required to fight this cancer in addition to the people they killed directly.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
I invest, hire and earn money from my capital.

OK then I'll stop replying to you because it is a waste of time. I'm not interesting in changing the minds of capitalists.

Wars are conflicts of interests. Such conflicts arise from varying views and intentions that are culturally, sociologically and economically very complex. Your simplistic view of conflict does not do the topic justice.

Please do some research, almost every war ever fought has been due to capitalist interests, only the excuses vary.

WAR is a racket. It always has been.

It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives. Two-Time Congressional Medal of Honor Recipient Major General Smedley D. Butler USMC, Retired

lexrex.com...

Originally posted by sligtlyskeptical
reply to post by maestromason

 

As for criticizing past attempts as socialism, none of them were or are the same brand of socialism that is being promoted in this thread. Again, this is intellectual dishonesty at best.

Everyone's main argument against socialism is that you can't do it without corruption. i think this is horse pucky. If the will exists to do away with corruption, it can be achieved.

You unrealistically discount human nature...

Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
I lived and experienced communism, and still have family in such a hellhole you want to implement around the world, hence why I don't find funny when ignorant people call me "comrad"...

No you haven't. You experienced a country that uses the term 'communism' for political reasons, not because they practice it. There has never been a communist country, ever. It has always been a theory only.

Wasn't it you who claimed we blame everything on others?

If you would only read through this thread, you will see this has been discussed and covered already. You might even learn something if you drop the obvious bias.

edit on 2/2/2012 by ANOK because: typo

ANOK - you keep alluding to this thread answers all questions and dispels all false notions about socialism... If that were true, this discussion would have ended pages ago. There is a philosophical/ideological divide between those that think they know what's better for the individual than allowing the individual the FREEDOM to choose what is best for itself.

Any way you look at that, it is a form of coercion perpetuated on an individual at the point of a gun. How is this "better"? In the current US system, we at least of the illusion that we get to choose. However it is a gross bastardization of the original founding principles. That bastardization, however, can be laid at the feet of socialist meddlers.

reply to post by JimmyNeutron


How did you ever end up with that number?

Also, you can't just blame the pseudo-socialists for the kills committed by the capitalists. Agent Orange for example can not be attributed to Vietnam but to the American forces who used it.

Originally posted by User8911

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
Oh for crying out loud. Why do you socialist types keep trying to sell the idea that Adam Smith was a socialist... and that Jesus was socialist?

Obviously duh, Jesus was a socialist more then a capitalist.

Next time, use someone that was selfish to say he wasn't a socialist.

edit on 2-2-2012 by User8911 because: (no reason given)

Wow... Really? In no way did Jesus promote what you are promoting. Have you ever heard about the Kingdom of God? There is One King. He rules. He is Lord - you are not. How is that socialist? As Lord, He has told us to:

1. Love the Lord your God with all your mind, soul, body, and spirit - this equals obedience (not in the legalistic sense).
2. Love your neighbor as yourself.

If you are following #2 - trying to foist your views off on me - some of you would like to do it at the point of a gun - you are saying that you would like me to treat you the same way.

Hmmm... Again not very warm and fuzzy is it!

Don't bastardize Jesus message to suit your own twisted ideology.

Jesus was neither socialist nor capitalist. He had no political doctrine, only religious. So, keep to the topic at hand, Jesus's teachings are irrelevant in this thread.

Originally posted by ANOK
You are still confused,

What if you lived in a world where you could respond to your fellow humans on the Internet without belittling them?

those so called left wing governments are not really left wing.

Every extremist says the conventional left-right setup of modern democracies is invalid. The model millions of politicians, journalists, historians, scientists, researchers base their work on, you brush away in one sentence.

I don't want a 'left wing' government, I want liberty, libertarian socialism. Left wing and government is an oxymoron imo.

Libertarian socialism is an oxymoron. Liberty means that I can decide what to do with my money. Socialism means that you decide what happens with my money.

So you all can keep waffling on using so called left wing governments to demonize socialism

To demonize something means to make it appear worse than it really is. The results of socialist policies have wrecked more than 100 countries in the last 100 years, so I am not actually demonizing them, Im still much too soft.

, but all your are doing is helping spread the propaganda you have all fallen for. I wish you would do some real research, and actually study the working class struggle since the industrial revolution, and you will see how political and economic terms have been twisted to demonize socialism, and convince you to accept a system that doesn't have your best interest at hear

If you are looking for "real research" look no further than reality. Reality is that all types of socialism have collapsed.

Deny ignorance eh?

Yes, most fervently.

The original political meanings of ‘left’ and ‘right’ have changed since their origin in the French estates general in 1789.

The policies you suggest throughout this thread and countless others are a failure. We have exposed them as such.

Explain how your society would differ from past socialist societies.

Originally posted by ANOK

Please do some research, almost every war ever fought has been due to capitalist interests, only the excuses vary.

Are you suggesting the U.S. should not have stopped Hitler, for instance?

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Libertarian socialism is an oxymoron. Liberty means that I can decide what to do with my money. Socialism means that you decide what happens with my money.

Not all socialist countries take away the right to private ownership or to do whatever you want with your money.

If you are looking for "real research" look no further than reality. Reality is that all types of socialism have collapsed.

So has every type of free market capitalism.