Why my mind is closing towards Capitalism

reply to post by dadgad

were there conspiracies in the cold war?
YES!
you should really read up on this from legitimate sources.
the whole eastern block was surrendered to stalin.
the soviets finished with eastern europe in the 8os, had they known this, democracy would have come 1o years sooner.
but what this author claims is a stretch of the imagination.
i happen to agree, controlling large populations is not the problem, but controlling a ruling elite, who has no real motivation, or attachment over 7o years to dark and foreign sources is problematic.
its very hard to dispose of leaders, it is easy to manipulate them on a few points, but a hereditary conspiracy for 7o years is highly impropable.

The reason Capitalism failed (in my opinion) in the U.S. is 2 fold.

First off, there needs to be a separation of Economy and State. The state should maintain the right to regulate working conditions (from safety protocols to minimum wage) but shouldn't be doing anything to help out the corporations (no bailouts, no special laws that protect corporations other than fraud and theft). In turn, lobbying should be dismantled and petitioning of the government should be done by individual constituents (not lobbying firms on the corporate dole). There should be no fundraising for elections either. All candidates should be given X amount of dollars for their campaigns as to not be influenced by corporations, or any individual, but as the voting public as a whole. This would alleviate most the problem of plutocracy inside our government, both at the state, local, and federal levels.

With the first option done as far as disassembling Corporation's and the Wealthy's political power over the common man, we need as a people learn how to take control over the corporations. I'm not talking about making them bend to our will and not run their organization as they like, but rather their success as an organization by rewarding, or punishing them as we, the people, see fit. I'm not talking about imprisoning them or putting sanctions against them, but voting inside the economic sphere by using the economies' equivalency of a vote which is our dollar. Instead of us, as a people choosing to buy from a company by means of either the lowest price or best service, we should take some time to actually look at the companies we buy from. Are they contributing to the community (not just by donations, because we all know that's just a tax write-off) but is the business actually helping to make the community we live in a better place? Are they treating their employees well, paying them what they deserve, selling product that they bought off of other companies that are helping out our community or country in the same way? If not, then find a place that does.

We've been conditioned to think what money we have is just the means to purchase goods and services, but not to use it as it is power like a vote. Due to this conditioning, we haven't thrown our power around enough, and allowed the corporations and wealthy to walk over us. They conditioned us to be like this, while they use their money as power. This has been going on since the industrialization of the country, when we started getting these "conveniences" at the end of at least the 1940's if not sooner than that. We fell for their trap hook line and sinker, and now we just sit on ATS complaining how capitalism failed us and that it's no good. These mega-corporations that run the world now want us to stop thinking about capitalism and go to socialism or communism because they have control of the government, so they'll have a tighter hold on the power. And if we let them succeed in letting us think Socialism will be better and fully switch, then we will have completely lost our chance to change it.

Occupy Wall Street and groups like that have the right idea, but are going about it all wrong. They are like a mechanic looking at your car telling you there is something wrong with it, but not bringing tools to fix it. Everyone who isn't extremely wealthy that has a mind of their own and thought power enough to open their eyes knows there is something wrong, but we've been under this social engineering long enough to not realize what is at stake and we still have the power to fix it. It won't be easy, but we can if we try.

Just some food for thought while I sit at my computer suffering from this cold I have debating with myself if I want to spend the money of cough medicine...

reply to post by Tea4One


well the nazi party is a special form of socialism, but its pretty well known.
its even in its name. national socialist workers party.

reply to post by noxvita83

if you separate state and economy you have democracy.
its already been invented.
why is it failing?
not because of the system, but because:
1. thinking.

Originally posted by BBalazs
reply to post by noxvita83

 

1. thinking.

Not sure if you're serious, or just trolling....

If your are serious, explain how thinking instead of being a mindless drone has hurt us? I would argue lack of thinking is how Democracy has failed, and brought us to this point by letting non-governemental entities take control of our government.

If you are trolling, then you did a great job, because I bit.

Originally posted by BBalazs
reply to post by Tea4One

 

well the nazi party is a special form of socialism, but its pretty well known.
its even in its name. national socialist workers party.

They used the socialist workers part of the name to attract the workers. It was a propaganda ploy to attract alienated workers in the cities.

They locked up socialists, stopped unions, kept private property, made a totalitarian state, opposed industry. This is just a few things that they did which makes them non-socialists. They're fascists, like Mussolini.

reply to post by Tea4One


well yes, but as Camut said, somewhere the extremes of the far right and left they meet.
they are branches of the same tree.
they also have a lot of common points.
nazis hated the jews,
commies the rich.
details.
both liked camps, displacement.
the commie unions had no reason to be, as there was only one state, so was a farce also.

Originally posted by Tea4One

OK, lets say socialism has existed (It hasn't) and dictatorships were set up which ended up in millions of peoples deaths (which it didn't because socialism has never happened) why are you omitting the atrocities that capitalist countries have committed?

YES IT HAS... and no mattter how many times you claim it hasn't is not going to change the fact that socialist/communist countries have existed and to this day some still exist...

Originally posted by Tea4One
People do own something, themselves and the means of production which is unlike a capitalist system. When owning themselves they control their labour. This is on top of the fact they own the means of production, the factories etc. How many times do we have to say it?

THEY DO NOT... in socialism/communism the people don't even own themselves as they are the workforce used/employed by the state... In Cuba for example if you are going to work for somebody else, that is not a state-owned business, the person who hires you must pay the Cuban government for hiring you apart from whatever you pay the Cuban employee...

Originally posted by Tea4One
The fact you think fascism is a left-wing ideology makes it pointless talking to you. The fact you think cooperative enterprises means corporations is hilarious.

You claim this only exists in my mind?... no, even WIKIPEDIA says so...

A cooperative (also co-operative or co-op) is a business organization owned and operated by a group of individuals for their mutual benefit.[1] A cooperative is defined by the International Cooperative Alliance's Statement on the Cooperative Identity as "an autonomous association of persons united voluntarily to meet their common economic, social, and cultural needs and aspirations through jointly owned and democratically controlled enterprise".[2] A cooperative may also be defined as a business owned and controlled equally by the people who use its services or by the people who work there. Various aspects regarding cooperative enterprise are the focus of study in the field of cooperative economics.

en.wikipedia.org...

Is the above that difficult for you to understand?...

Originally posted by Tea4One

They used the socialist workers part of the name to attract the workers. It was a propaganda ploy to attract alienated workers in the cities.

They locked up socialists, stopped unions, kept private property, made a totalitarian state, opposed industry. This is just a few things that they did which makes them non-socialists. They're fascists, like Mussolini.

EVERYTHING claimed by socialists is nothing more than lies to attract the workers... It is ALWAYS propaganda...

And again people like you continue to ignore the fact that FASCISM is a SOCIALIST ideology...

Socialist/communist dictatorships have imprisoned and even murdered other socialists/communists who differed in some ideas from those in power... It DOESN'T make them any less socialists/communists...

reply to post by BBalazs


You can't draw huge parallels between the lefts hate of the bourgeoisie and the Nazi's social darwinist belief in the superiority of the Aryan race.

In theory they have nothing in common. I don't think I've ever read Marx & Engels talk about how much they loved camps...

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


We've argued this, I was trying to argue something completely different, why are you omitting the atrocities of capitalism?

They're not socialist countries...

Thanks for finally agreeing with me. "An autonomous association of persons united voluntarily to meet their common economic, social, and cultural needs and aspirations through jointly owned and democratically controlled enterprise." So, a self-governing body of persons united to meet their needs through the democratic common ownership. So, no state just the people owning the means of production.

Also, why are using wikipedia so often?

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
YES IT HAS... and no mattter how many times you claim it hasn't is not going to change the fact that socialist/communist countries have existed and to this day some still exist...

You could slap a label that says gold on a turd but it doesn't make it gold. No matter what those countries, your hated Cuba as well, call themselves it doesn't change the fact that they are not what they are labled.

THEY DO NOT... in socialism/communism the people don't even own themselves as they are the workforce used/employed by the state... In Cuba for example if you are going to work for somebody else, that is not a state-owned business, the person who hires you must pay the Cuban government for hiring you apart from whatever you pay the Cuban employee...

See above. Actually sounds alot like the US.

Originally posted by Tea4One
The fact you think fascism is a left-wing ideology makes it pointless talking to you. The fact you think cooperative enterprises means corporations is hilarious.

You claim this only exists in my mind?... no, even WIKIPEDIA says so...

A cooperative (also co-operative or co-op) is a business organization owned and operated by a group of individuals for their mutual benefit.[1] A cooperative is defined by the International Cooperative Alliance's Statement on the Cooperative Identity as "an autonomous association of persons united voluntarily to meet their common economic, social, and cultural needs and aspirations through jointly owned and democratically controlled enterprise".[2] A cooperative may also be defined as a business owned and controlled equally by the people who use its services or by the people who work there. Various aspects regarding cooperative enterprise are the focus of study in the field of cooperative economics.

en.wikipedia.org...

Is the above that difficult for you to understand?...

Your answer has nothing to do with facism which is in fact right wing. It is totalitarian capitalism or state capitalism, which sounds alot like your beloved new home.

Alternatively, state capitalism may be used (sometimes interchangeably with state monopoly capitalism) to describe a system where the state intervenes in the economy to protect and advance the interests of large-scale businesses. This practice is often claimed to be in contrast with the ideals of both socialism and laissez-faire capitalism.

On economic issues, Italian Fascist leader Benito Mussolini claimed in 1933 that fascism's "path would lead inexorably into state capitalism, which is nothing more nor less than state socialism turned on its head. In either event, [whether the outcome be state capitalism or state socialism] the result is the bureaucratization of the economic activities of the nation."

Socialism as Infantilism

The broader umbrella for Fascism and Socialism, that has left hundreds of Millions dead just in the last century, is Collectivism. If normal people see a problem, they change themselves. If a collectivist sees a problem, he tries to change others and the world. The root of this is in infancy where there are no boundaries between oneself and others. Thus, ones own pains are felt to be the pains of others. The infantile state can be seen in recent OWS protestors who believe because they are hurting personally, everyone else is hurting too. They actually believe that the "99%" are hurting and believe they need to determine what is done with other peoples money and property.

Like an infant, they believe they are the center of the world and entitled to free hand outs. Like an infant, the socialist throws a tantrum which he takes to the streets.

Like an infant thinks its parents are God, the socialist thinks the Government and its "great leader" is God.

Science has shown that people become stuck in infancy due to traumatic childhood experiences or cruel parenting. In any case, these people should not be in politics they should be in therapy. If you allow the to get into politics you have the same results Pol Pot, Mugabe, Hitler, Stalin, Kim Jong Ill and other socialists get.

Originally posted by aravoth

Originally posted by colin42
reply to post by aravoth

 

I thank you and goodnight

You welcome, In fact you've all changed my mind completely. I've been converted...

I bet you have some nice stuff. I bet I could use some of it. I'm going to come and take your stuff because it's nicer than mine. But I want you to keep being productive and working hard, that way I can have more nice stuff at your expense.

You see. I am a lazy, fat, arrogant pile of useless trash. Everyone owes me something. And they especially owe me the the fruits of thier labor. I'm too stupid to figure out how to be productive because the school system I was taught in didn't have the resources to make me smart. That is the fault of greedy people that don't care about fat, lazy, arrogant piles of useless trash like me.

In a short while, the people I voted for will send some other people to your house. And they will take your nice things and bring them to me. Because their are millions of fat, lazy, arrogant piles of trash like me all over the country, and we are a huge voting block.

I am not smart enough, determined enough, or strong enough to make my own life better. But you are smart, determined, and strong enough for the two of us. So I will sit my giant, fat, lazy, arrogant ass on your shoulders, and you will carry my giant, fat, lazy, arrogant ass for the rest of your life.

You get it? You may produce everything, you may be the sole creator of jobs and wealth, you may think you are pretty smart when you invent something groundbreaking that changes the world forever and saves a million lives, but I did one better.............

I stole it all from you......because I am.....a giant, fat, lazy, arrogant ###hole. Now get back to work, you need to buy me a TV so I don't miss dancing with the stars.

WOW you have such a low opinion of yourself its scary.

What you describe above is neither socialism or capitalism but it does again appear to be centred around self rather than group good which is the failing of ALL doctrines.

reply to post by Skyfloating


That is a dramatic oversimplification. Also, what is the point of society if not to look out for each other?

Originally posted by Tea4One

You can't draw huge parallels between the lefts hate of the bourgeoisie and the Nazi's social darwinist belief in the superiority of the Aryan race.

In theory they have nothing in common. I don't think I've ever read Marx & Engels talk about how much they loved camps...
...

Really?... so you never heard the fact that Marx and Engels hated Jewish people with a passion?...

...
What truth is there in this argument? Marx’s essay, On the Jewish Question, originally published in 1844 contains the following:

What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money.…. Money is the jealous god of Israel, in face of which no other god may exist. Money degrades all the gods of man – and turns them into commodities…. The bill of exchange is the real god of the Jew. His god is only an illusory bill of exchange…. The chimerical nationality of the Jew is the nationality of the merchant, of the man of money in general.

Marx argues that, “In the final analysis, the emancipation of the Jews is the emancipation of mankind from Judaism.” Larry Ray explains, “Marx’s position is essentially an assimilationist one in which there is no room within emancipated humanity for Jews as a separate ethnic or cultural identity.” Dennis Fischman puts it, “Jews, Marx seems to be saying, can only become free when, as Jews, they no longer exist.”
...

marxwords.blogspot.com...

Hyam Maccoby has argued that "On the Jewish Question" is an example of what he considers to be Marx'[size]s "early anti-Semitism." According to Maccoby, Marx argues in the essay that the modern commercialized world is the triumph of Judaism, a pseudo-religion whose god is money. Maccoby has suggested that Marx was embarrassed by his Jewish background and used the Jews as a "yardstick of evil." Maccoby writes that in later years, Marx limited what he considers to be antipathy towards Jews to private letters and conversations because of strong public identification with anti-Semitism by his political enemies both on the left (Pierre-Joseph Proudhon and Mikhail Bakunin) and on the right (aristocracy and the Church).[13] Bernard Lewis has described "On the Jewish Question" as "one of the classics of anti-Semitic propaganda."[14] According to several scholars, for Marx Jews were the embodiment of capitalism and the representation of all its evils

en.wikipedia.org...

You really need to do some real research on this topic...

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


They didn't hate Jewish people with a passion they hated religion with a passion. They were anti-theists. Plus, what does that have to do with putting Jewish people in camps? He merely writes about the emancipation of the Jew from religion. This far from cleansing the Jew like the Nazi's looked to do.

The claims that Marx was an anti-semite has long been refuted, just read here.

So with me proving you wrong in essence of what socialism is you change your tune to the typical anti-marxist lies that Marx was an anti-semite.

reply to post by noxvita83

I would argue lack of thinking is how Democracy has failed, and brought us to this point by letting non-governemental entities take control of our government.

The US is a failed Republic, not a Democracy. In fact, we are the world's oldest Constitutional Republic.

reply to post by Tea4One

They didn't hate Jewish people with a passion they hated religion with a passion.

LOL, Yes, the Nazis in general, and Adolf Hitler in particular hated the Jews with an extreme passion. He blamed the hyper-inflation of the German economy on the Jews, ironically not his own country for starting and losing WWI. Hitler didn't hate Occultism with a passion, it was his religion after the 1930s.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


I was talking about Marx & Engels hating religion not Jews. I know the Nazi's hated the Jews with a passion.

Originally posted by daskakik

You could slap a label that says gold on a turd but it doesn't make it gold. No matter what those countries, your hated Cuba as well, call themselves it doesn't change the fact that they are not what they are labled.

You can claim all the BS you want to claim, in the end Cuba has been communist since the castro revolution, China has been communist, but still call themselves as socialists, the U.S.S.R. has been communist, and several other nations which have become dictatorships have all embraced socialism/communism...

If it quacks like a duck, swims like a duck and looks like a duck it must be a duck...

Originally posted by daskakik
See above. Actually sounds alot like the US.

And in fact the United States has been slowly turned into a socialist state... From having a central bank, to centralization of power, and bigger government, plus a progressive tax, it all points to the fact that the United States has been ravaged by leftwingers, and transformed into something it was never meant to be... Even communist states have a central bank, consolidate all power and have "progressive taxes", just like the United States...

Originally posted by daskakik
Your answer has nothing to do with facism which is in fact right wing. It is totalitarian capitalism or state capitalism. Which, State Capitalism, sounds alot like you beloved new home.

You should heed your own words sometimes, such as your first statement in this post...

In Facism the state/corporation owns all the means of production, has all the power, and at it's core is the central bank...

ALL of the above are tenets of SOCIALISM, not rightwing...

You want to talk about "state capitalism"?...

The term State capitalism has various meanings, but is usually described as commercial (profit-seeking) economic activity undertaken by the state with management of the productive forces in a capitalist manner, even if the state is nominally socialist.[1] State capitalism is usually characterized by the dominance or existence of a significant number of state-owned business enterprises. Examples of state capitalism include Corporatized government agencies (agencies organized along corporate and business management practices) and states that own controlling shares of publicly-listed corporations, effectively acting as a large capitalist and shareholder itself.
...

en.wikipedia.org...

In state capitalism state-owned business enterprises are in power, or the state owns the major corporations...

And what does that sound like?...

Socialism /ˈsoʊʃəlɪzəm/ is an economic system characterized by social ownership or control of the means of production and cooperative management of the economy,[1] and a political philosophy advocating such a system. "Social ownership" may refer to any one of, or a combination of, the following: cooperative enterprises, common ownership, direct public ownership or autonomous state enterprises.[2] There are many variations of socialism and as such there is no single definition encapsulating all of socialism.[3] They differ in the type of social ownership they advocate, the degree to which they rely on markets versus planning, how management is to be organized within economic enterprises, and the role of the state in constructing socialism.
...

en.wikipedia.org...

Get it? got it? good...