Why my mind is closing towards Capitalism

Originally posted by mastahunta

I am painting it that way specifically because, opposition will indicate the the bent of their opposition.

Logically speaking, if two parties are in unity there will be no conflict, however the Nazi party
actively hunted and murdered Communist and Communist tried to murder Hitler on several
occasions.

heh... and as I TRIED to inform you on several occasions, socialists have hunted and murdered socialists, and communists have hunted and murdered communists because THEY HAD DIFFERENT IDEAS ON THEIR LEFTWING IDEOLOGIES...

Leon Trotsky

Stalin Seeks My Death

Written:24 May, 1940
First Published: The Fourth International, Vol. 2 No. 7, August 1941, pages 201-207
Translated: By The Fourth International
Transcription/HTML Markup: David Walters
Copyleft: Leon Trotsky Internet Archive (www.marxists.org) 2008. Permission is granted to copy and/or distribute this document under the terms of the Creative Commons License [You can freely copy, distribute, and display this work; as well as make derivative and commercial works. Please credit the Leon Trotsky Internet Archive as your source, include the url to this work, and note the transcribers & proofreaders above.]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The following article, now published for the first time, was written by Trotsky two weeks after the May 24, 1940 attempt to assassinate him. As the article relates, Stalin’s GPU was able to bring powerful pressure on the Mexican police to steer Its investigation away from the GPU murder band which had attempted to kill Trotsky. Shortly after this article was written, however, the investigation was brought back on the right track. Our press at the time published all the details of how the police arrested David Serrano, David Alfaro Siquieiros and a score of other Stalinists; how some of them confessed their complicIty, and the guilt of the Stalinist murder machine was established.

For reasons best known to themselves, the Mexican authorities have not yet completed their case against the GPTJ band. According to Mexican law, the investigating judge is required to complete his investigation and hand down a verdict within a year’s time. Although Slqueiros admitted his participation in the attack upon Trotsky’s house, he and the GPU found judges who released him on the ground that he was not seeking to murder Trotsky! The others are still in prison. Similar delay is occurring in the case of “Frank Jacson,” the GPU assassin who succeeded In striking the death-blow on August 20, 1940.

Trotsky’s article gives us his own description of the May 24th attempt on his life and of the events of the next two weeks. Another article by Trotsky on the attempt was “The Comintern and the GPU” published in the November, 1940 Issue of FOURTH INTERNATIONAL.

The Night of the Assault

The attack came at dawn, about 4 A. M. I was fast asleep, having taken a sleeping drug after a hard day’s work. Awakened by the rattle of gun fire but feeling very hazy, I first imagined that a national holiday was being celebrated with fireworks outside our walls. But the explosions were too close, right here within the room, next to me and overhead. The odor of gunpowder became more acrid, more penetrating. Clearly, what we had always expected was now happening: we were under attack. Where were the police stationed outside the walls? Where the guards inside? Trussed up? Kidnapped? Killed? My wife had already jumped from her bed. The shooting continued incessantly. My wife later told me that she helped me to the floor, pushing me into the space between the bed and the wall. This was quite true. She had remained hovering over me, beside the wall, as if to shield me with her body. But by means of whispers and gestures I convinced her to lie flat on the floor. The shots came from all sides, it was difficult to tell just from where. At a certain time my wife, as she later told me, was able clearly to distinguish spurts of fire from a gun: consequently, the shooting was being done right here in the room although we could not see anybody. My impression is that altogether some two hundred shots were fired, of which about one hundred fell right here, near us. Splinters of glass from windowpanes and chips from walls flew in all directions. A little later I felt that my right leg, had been slightly wounded in two places.
...

www.marxists.org...

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
reply to post by mastahunta

 

Oh and btw, in case you didn't know, so far seem to be increadibly ignorant on history, the Kommunistische Partei Deutschlands was the COMMUNIST PARTY...Hitler was a NATIONAL SOCIALIST...

Yes, both leftwingers, but with different ideas on how Germany should be run...

edit on 3-2-2012 by ElectricUniverse because: (no reason given)

You are so far off the ridiculous scale.... do you have all your chromosomes?

You didn't even know about the KPD until I just brought it up

You are making this up as you go, huh

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by theubermensch

Not forcing. What if Cuba had not been a victim of Imperialism? What if 'upward mobility' was not bs. Dont you think things could be better for all? Not just some?

Oooh boy... Cuba was not "a victim of imperialism"... Cuba was a victim to the socialist/communist ideas of castro...

Since the start of the castro revolution Cuba has been for the worst...

There is enough land in Cuba to cultivate harvests to feed the people, but instead most of it is sold, or sent to other countries "to spread the revolution" and to keep the rotten idea of the communist revolution alive...

Before castro, even during Batista, things were a lot better for the majority of Cubans, including farmers...

Seems like American capitalists have done nothing but try to keep them down. I loved the whole 'bay of pigs' thing. And the embargo's. Why shouldnt Americans be able to buy a Cuban cigar? They want them.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

So you are telling me that Germany didn't have a strong group of conservative
nationalists?

I am telling you they did, NAZIs

Really, go to Great Britain and say this in a pub dude, you will lose your teeth.

"The streets of our country are in turmoil. The universities are filled with students rebelling and
rioting. Communists are seeking to destroy our country. Russia is threatening us with her might and the Republic is in danger. Yes - danger from within and without."ADOLFHITLER

Originally posted by Leo Strauss

Too bad Stalin and Hitler didn't get a chance to talk they could have avoided the whole war.
Wait a minute wasn't the US allied with the communists during the war??

Too bad Stalin ordered the death of other communists, they could have talked it over...

Too bad castro didn't order the death of other socialists and communists, they could have talked it over...

Too bad some people don't have an argument, hence they have to make up some nonsense...

Originally posted by mastahunta

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

So you are telling me that Germany didn't have a strong group of conservative
nationalists?

I am telling you they did, NAZIs

Really, go to Great Britain and say this in a pub dude, you will lose your teeth.

There were multiple conservative national parties, German peoples party, German national peoples party and even the Centre party when it suited them.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


what do you think would be the best for the cuban people, practically/theoretically/possibly?

and im asking, honestly

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by Leo Strauss

Too bad Stalin and Hitler didn't get a chance to talk they could have avoided the whole war.
Wait a minute wasn't the US allied with the communists during the war??

Too bad Stalin ordered the death of other communists, they could have talked it over...

Too bad castro didn't order the death of other socialists and communists, they could have talked it over...

Too bad some people don't have an argument, hence they have to make up some nonsense...

You want all of us to believe a fake argument, have you noticed how ALONE you have
been in you crusade???

You are sick man, you need to read books

Originally posted by mastahunta

You are so far off the ridiculous scale.... do you have all your chromosomes?

You didn't even know about the KPD until I just brought it up

You are making this up as you go, huh

WOW...

What makes you think I didn't know about the communist party trying to run against the NATIONAL SOCIALIST party?...

What in the world makes you think that there MUST be a completely oposite party fighting against the leftwingers?...

For crying out loud leftwingers fight amongts yourselves when you have no oposition from the right...

Are you trying to claim that Trostky was lying when he wrote that Stalin was trying to murder him?...

Or that the police in Mexico didn't arrest Stalinists who tried to murder Trotsky?...

BTW, I have all my chromosomes, but you obviously are missing all your braincells...

reply to post by ElectricUniverse

I am suprised you could live and work in a nation that was allied with the communists during WW2? Isn't that a little more than suspicious? I mean they were allies. Didn't US industrialists actively work to arm Hitler? Where did the smart Nazis move after the war??? How can you live in a communist sympathizing country like the US. Who is our current number one trading partner hmmmmmm??? that would be Red China brother! And here you are buying commie crap in a Miami Walmart!

Originally posted by Shred

Originally posted by mastahunta

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

So you are telling me that Germany didn't have a strong group of conservative
nationalists?

I am telling you they did, NAZIs

Really, go to Great Britain and say this in a pub dude, you will lose your teeth.

There were multiple conservative national parties, German peoples party, German national peoples party and even the Centre party when it suited them.

and the Nazi Party, that touted ideas of nationalism, national pride, anti Gay, anti liberal,
anti immigration, anti union, even pro gun

Do any of those positions sound liberal to you?

The first thing Hitler did was strip unions of their power, yet Communists and leftist believed
that unions were very important to their ideals.

I mean do you have any respect for honest debate?

Originally posted by mastahunta

You want all of us to believe a fake argument, have you noticed how ALONE you have
been in you crusade???

You are sick man, you need to read books

Alone?.. Naaa, just because LEFTWINGERS are siding with LEFTWINGERS doesn't leave me alone...

The truth speaks for itself, and obviously you have no truth to convey at all...

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by mastahunta

You are so far off the ridiculous scale.... do you have all your chromosomes?

You didn't even know about the KPD until I just brought it up

You are making this up as you go, huh

WOW...

What makes you think I didn't know about the communist party trying to run against the NATIONAL SOCIALIST party?...

What in the world makes you think that there MUST be a completely oposite party fighting against the leftwingers?...

For crying out loud leftwingers fight amongts yourselves when you have no oposition from the right...

Are you trying to claim that Trostky was lying when he wrote that Stalin was trying to murder him?...

Or that the police in Mexico didn't arrest Stalinists who tried to murder Trotsky?...

BTW, I have all my chromosomes, but you obviously are missing all your braincells...

Let's see, Hitler was so left wing and liberal

HE smashed unions

HE constantly railed against immigration and homosexuality

HE was pro Military

He was pro gun

He was Anti Liberal

He was pro self determination



I mean, what was leftist about his policies?

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by mastahunta

You want all of us to believe a fake argument, have you noticed how ALONE you have
been in you crusade???

You are sick man, you need to read books

Alone?.. Naaa, just because LEFTWINGERS are siding with LEFTWINGERS doesn't leave me alone...

The truth speaks for itself, and obviously you have no truth to convey at all...

If Hitler was a lefty explain why he smashed unions?

Are unions right wing ???

If Hitler were a lefty explain why he hated undocumented immigrants, Gypsies?

Are Righties pro illegal immigration?

In 1,000 years, if someone comes across this they are going to think you
are retarded or infected with a brain disfunction. And they are going to
think I am crazy for arguing with you, as opposed to contacting a
Psychologist.

Originally posted by mastahunta

Originally posted by Shred

Originally posted by mastahunta

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

So you are telling me that Germany didn't have a strong group of conservative
nationalists?

I am telling you they did, NAZIs

Really, go to Great Britain and say this in a pub dude, you will lose your teeth.

There were multiple conservative national parties, German peoples party, German national peoples party and even the Centre party when it suited them.

and the Nazi Party, that touted ideas of nationalism, national pride, anti Gay, anti liberal,
anti immigration, anti union, even pro gun

Do any of those positions sound liberal to you?

The first thing Hitler did was strip unions of their power, yet Communists and leftist believed
that unions were very important to their ideals.

I mean do you have any respect for honest debate?

Two can play this game.

We demand that the state be charged first with providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens. If it is impossible to sustain the total population of the State, then the members of foreign nations (non-citizens) are to be expelled from the Reich.

All citizens must have equal rights and obligations.

The first obligation of every citizen must be to work both spiritually and physically. The activity of individuals is not to counteract the interests of the universality, but must have its result within the framework of the whole for the benefit of all. Consequently we demand:

Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of debt (interest)-slavery.

In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people, personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.

We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).
We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.
We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.
We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality.

We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.

We demand struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest. Common national criminals, usurers, profiteers and so forth are to be punished with death, without consideration of confession or race.

We demand substitution of a German common law in place of the Roman Law serving a materialistic world-order.

The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the State must be striven for by the school [Staatsbuergerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the State of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.

The State is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.

Originally posted by Shred

Originally posted by mastahunta

Originally posted by Shred

Originally posted by mastahunta

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

So you are telling me that Germany didn't have a strong group of conservative
nationalists?

I am telling you they did, NAZIs

Really, go to Great Britain and say this in a pub dude, you will lose your teeth.

There were multiple conservative national parties, German peoples party, German national peoples party and even the Centre party when it suited them.

and the Nazi Party, that touted ideas of nationalism, national pride, anti Gay, anti liberal,
anti immigration, anti union, even pro gun

Do any of those positions sound liberal to you?

The first thing Hitler did was strip unions of their power, yet Communists and leftist believed
that unions were very important to their ideals.

I mean do you have any respect for honest debate?

Two can play this game.

We demand that the state be charged first with providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens. If it is impossible to sustain the total population of the State, then the members of foreign nations (non-citizens) are to be expelled from the Reich.

All citizens must have equal rights and obligations.

The first obligation of every citizen must be to work both spiritually and physically. The activity of individuals is not to counteract the interests of the universality, but must have its result within the framework of the whole for the benefit of all. Consequently we demand:

Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of debt (interest)-slavery.

In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people, personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.

We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).
We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.
We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.
We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality.

We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.

We demand struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest. Common national criminals, usurers, profiteers and so forth are to be punished with death, without consideration of confession or race.

We demand substitution of a German common law in place of the Roman Law serving a materialistic world-order.

The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the State must be striven for by the school [Staatsbuergerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the State of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.

The State is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.

What is your point, A. he was a nut sack ?

B. Simply explain how Hitler could be a lefty if he opposed unionization?

Use your words and explain how Hitler can oppose the embodiment of leftist economic constructs?

Give me your logic

Originally posted by mastahunta

Originally posted by Shred

Originally posted by mastahunta

Originally posted by Shred

Originally posted by mastahunta

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

So you are telling me that Germany didn't have a strong group of conservative
nationalists?

I am telling you they did, NAZIs

Really, go to Great Britain and say this in a pub dude, you will lose your teeth.

There were multiple conservative national parties, German peoples party, German national peoples party and even the Centre party when it suited them.

and the Nazi Party, that touted ideas of nationalism, national pride, anti Gay, anti liberal,
anti immigration, anti union, even pro gun

Do any of those positions sound liberal to you?

The first thing Hitler did was strip unions of their power, yet Communists and leftist believed
that unions were very important to their ideals.

I mean do you have any respect for honest debate?

Two can play this game.

We demand that the state be charged first with providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens. If it is impossible to sustain the total population of the State, then the members of foreign nations (non-citizens) are to be expelled from the Reich.

All citizens must have equal rights and obligations.

The first obligation of every citizen must be to work both spiritually and physically. The activity of individuals is not to counteract the interests of the universality, but must have its result within the framework of the whole for the benefit of all. Consequently we demand:

Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of debt (interest)-slavery.

In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people, personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.

We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).
We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.
We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.
We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality.

We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.

We demand struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest. Common national criminals, usurers, profiteers and so forth are to be punished with death, without consideration of confession or race.

We demand substitution of a German common law in place of the Roman Law serving a materialistic world-order.

The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the State must be striven for by the school [Staatsbuergerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the State of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.

The State is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.

What is your point, A. he was a nut sack ?

B. Simply explain how Hitler could be a lefty if he opposed unionization?

Use your words and explain how Hitler can oppose the embodiment of leftist economic constructs?

Give me your logic

edit on 3-2-2012 by mastahunta because: (no reason given)

Oh god you are clueless. Read it again. The point is that the program was very socialist. Unions were a threat to his rule since they were dominated by multiple parties.

Why my mind is closing towards Capitalism

This thread is living proof that the system has dumbed us all down to the point that we have taken sides against each other! The warfare of ~Isms and ~Ists must come to an end. Somehow we have to make a new way.

Cui bono? Are you ready for the Novus ordo seclorum? What should the new system look like, Star Trek? How will it work, like Skynet mixed with Google? Who enforces the law, RoboCops?

The 'socializers' in this thread would make it impossible for any human being to go hungry or thirsty or jobless. That is a nifty goal and I support it. But it's not pure economics.

While the 'capitalizers' in this thread would make it possible for fortune seekers to invest their 'wealth' in order to create even more 'wealth'. But it's not purely economics. What makes a millionaire invest his millions? He already has it made so why risk it? Aaahhh, it must be the thrill of risk that entices the millionaire to re-invest in the big game.

This is an important problem and an important thread. I don't understand why people are arguing over
~Isms and ~Ists when the time would be better spent developing ideas. In essence, I don't care who Karl Marx was. I don't care about Adam Smith or Milton Friedman. I just don't care.

What I care about is solving these imminent global problems in a non-violent and in a non-exploitive manner. So my thanks to the OP who started the discussion.

how can your mind close towards a perfect system of trade?
your mind is closing. full stop.
i guess what you meant to say was this: my mind is closing towards state sponsored elitist democratic dictatorships.
welcome to the club, in that case.
its not really about closing though, it is more about opening your eyes.