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Why my mind is closing towards Capitalism

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posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 11:10 PM
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Originally posted by ANOK
reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


Again if you read through this damn thread you will see this have been covered already.

The right appropriated left wing terms to gain support from the people who were heavily left wing at that time. Hitler was lying about being a socialist in that speech.

Hitler supported capitalism, no workers ever owned the means of production in Nazi Germany. He was a fascist, he was in league with Mussolini and Franco, he put socialists in the camps, he fought the socialist in Spain.

You are the one that doesn't understand the history of Europe.

"I absolutely insist on protecting private property... we must encourage private initiative" Hitler.


edit on 2/2/2012 by ANOK because: typo


yeah, now Hitler is a capitalist? ROFL he used Jewish slaves to work in state sponsored corporations, and that makes him a capitalist?

First Hitler is a capitalist, then he's a fascist, those are two completely opposite ideologies, fracken pick one and make up your mind.

You say Hitler lied about being a socialist. Then you post a quote about him protecting private property. But you apparently missed the part where he seized private businesses, and all private property owned by people like me. You think he did that because he was....what..... "insisting on protecting private property"?

your entire argument is crap.
edit on 2-2-2012 by aravoth because: (no reason given)




posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 11:16 PM
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Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by ANOK

And the reason it has problems financially taking care of the infrastructure?

Because capitalist interests spend our tax money on wars to advance their exploitation of other markets, or to reduce competition. The reason we will attack Iran for their nuclear program. They will be able to sell plutonium on the 'free-market' and compete with America. That is always been the reason for nuclear power, it's the only way to produce plutonium for bombs on a large enough scale.


Socialist/communist countries use their "progressive taxes" to spread the revolution worldwide...

From paying and helping ETA terrorists, the FARC, and other terrorist organizations which are leftwing, to funding wars like the Chinese did with Vietnam, Tibet, or Cuba did with Angola...

The "taxes" we have now in the Republic of the United States are progressive taxes" and they were set up by the IRS which was funded by no other than Progressive Democrats under a Progressive Democrat President, yes Woodrow Wilson, alongside their implementation of the Federal Reserve...

The taxes we have been having since 1913 are UnConstitutional, but you know the Constitution hasn't stopped leftwingers from implementing their ideologies in this country...

As for the war with Iran... it is obvious by now that certain people in power want to completely destroy the United States... What have people in power have been calling for? a One World Order, and One World government, and this is only possible under the socialist/communist ideologies...

A one World Order can only be implemented through FORCE, and this is something that socialism/communism allows for...




edit on 2-2-2012 by ElectricUniverse because: (no reason given)


Actually... the progressive tax is a very common-sense and decent mode of taxation. It makes sense. Not only that but the courts have upheld it as constitutional on at least a couple occasions, it is also bolstered by the 16th Amendment to the Constitution:

supreme.justia.com...

and

en.wikipedia.org...

and

en.wikipedia.org...


Not to mention, Adam Smith, the "father" of Capitalism, seems to have contributed to the invention of the progressive tax.

And no... it's not part of the "One world order".
edit on 2-2-2012 by NoHierarchy because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 11:17 PM
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Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by NoHierarchy

CEASE YOUR PROPAGANDA.

NOBODY HERE IS ADVOCATING AUTHORITARIANISM.

I know you like to ignore everything that's been said, but what we're advocating is LIBERTARIAN-SOCIALISM... which is what Libertarianism was called until about the 1950's when Western Capitalists hijacked the term to equate with their perverted laissez-faire economics. And you're one of the latest dupes/converts to their church of useful idiots for robber-barons...


No... CEASE YOUR LEFTIST PROPAGANDA...

NOTHING you, or your leftist friends have said can debunk what YOUR IDEOLOGIES HAVE DONE TO THE WORLD...

Of course you are going to claim "we are not advocating authoritarianism", but that is exactly what socialism/communism are, authoritarian...

From, NO ONE can own any property, to centralization of power, a central banking system, etc, etc, all of it takes power from the people and gives it to a few individuals which people like you are so delluded and brainwashed into thinking "will represent the people"...



You really are in some kind of fanatical, factless la-la land, aren't you? It's quite disappointing when we're trying to have a serious discussion here...



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 11:19 PM
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The biggest flaw of the current "capitalism" is the fact that eventually it ends up as a oligarchy. As the globe becomes more and more connected and the elites mingle, erasing the old power structures and replacing them with friendly, like minded rulers, it ends up as a global oligarchy with systems in place to protect it against the population. In other words, most of humanity are slaves meant to A) produce, B) buy what they produce and C) make more slaves.

Socialism doesn't work either, be it communism or social democracy, because it too takes away the freedom of the people. Modern "capitalist" states like the US steal a portion of the slaves earnings to fund its own programs, even in a mild socialist system like social democracy the state steals even more by attaching high taxes to EVERYTHING in order to fund A) its own inefficient rule and B) social programs which may or may not work or be as efficient they could be. The state becomes the God that provides for the people and the people must obey and worship the state as the only provider for those in need. Social democracy, capitalism thrown in with socialist values, destroys any form of community the society has because there is no need for it; unlike communism the people have to find their own path in a world of competition while at the same time removing the need for families and communities to act together to provide services.

Democracy always leads to ochlocracy, ochlocracy always leads to oligarchy and oligarchy always leads to tyranny.



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 11:19 PM
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Originally posted by NoHierarchy

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by NoHierarchy

CEASE YOUR PROPAGANDA.

NOBODY HERE IS ADVOCATING AUTHORITARIANISM.

I know you like to ignore everything that's been said, but what we're advocating is LIBERTARIAN-SOCIALISM... which is what Libertarianism was called until about the 1950's when Western Capitalists hijacked the term to equate with their perverted laissez-faire economics. And you're one of the latest dupes/converts to their church of useful idiots for robber-barons...


No... CEASE YOUR LEFTIST PROPAGANDA...

NOTHING you, or your leftist friends have said can debunk what YOUR IDEOLOGIES HAVE DONE TO THE WORLD...

Of course you are going to claim "we are not advocating authoritarianism", but that is exactly what socialism/communism are, authoritarian...

From, NO ONE can own any property, to centralization of power, a central banking system, etc, etc, all of it takes power from the people and gives it to a few individuals which people like you are so delluded and brainwashed into thinking "will represent the people"...



You really are in some kind of fanatical, factless la-la land, aren't you? It's quite disappointing when we're trying to have a serious discussion here...


what fact is he wrong about exactly?
edit on 2-2-2012 by aravoth because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 11:25 PM
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Originally posted by aravoth

yeah, now Hitler is a capitalist? ROFL he used Jewish slaves to work in state sponsored corporations, and that makes him a capitalist?


The private ownership of the means of production is capitalism, he supported private ownership which is a part of fascism. Fascism is a political system where government, privately owned corporations, and military work together to control the economy.


First Hitler is a capitalist, then he's a fascist, those are two completely opposite ideologies, fracken pick one and make up your mind.


He was BOTH, one is a political system, the other is an economic system. You figure out which is which


Mussolini created the system of Fascism, and Italy practiced corporatism. The state came before the individual. He believed the state should be the master, not the people. It is in complete contrast to socialism, where the people have the power, not the state.



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 11:27 PM
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reply to post by ANOK
 


Are you really that ignorant? or do you think everyone else is as ignorant or brainwashed as you are?

Samuel Adams was one of the founders of what is known as AMERICAN REPUBLICANISM...

In that quote which you are trying to twist he is saying you shouldn't want wealth more than liberty... Leftwingers want MORE wages in exchange for BIGGER GOVERNMENT...

Not to mention that private property, and the right of people to own arms do not go in well with socialist/communist and in general leftwinger ideals...

Samuel Adams a leftwinger...



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 11:28 PM
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Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by NoHierarchy
Oh shut up...

If anyone's a danger it's you right-wingers... arming yourselves to hunt down liberals... JUST LIKE HITLER DID. But no worries. we'll NEVER LET THAT HAPPEN AGAIN. If brown-shirts start storming around (I don't care if they're right or left wing) at the behest of any truly authoritarian government or economic system, they will be snuffed out. Stop attacking people who should be your allies, it's despicable and stupid.


Try to shut me up...

BTW, talking about Hitler...


"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions." --Adolf Hitler

(Speech of May 1, 1927. Quoted by Toland, 1976, p. 306)

constitutionalistnc.tripod.com...

I wonder where I heard that before?..


But of course socialists are going to TRY to claim "he wasn't a real socialist" but he was...

FACTS speak for themselves...



Has it not already been stated MULTIPLE TIMES that Hitler used a budding Socialist revolution to gain power and then KILLED OFF ALL OF THE SOCIALIST-LEANING PARTY MEMBERS then instituted a FAR RIGHT-WING FASCIST GOVERNMENT and actively hunted down socialists, liberals, communists, jews, gays, union members, and so on??



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 11:28 PM
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Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by aravoth

yeah, now Hitler is a capitalist? ROFL he used Jewish slaves to work in state sponsored corporations, and that makes him a capitalist?


The private ownership of the means of production is capitalism, he supported private ownership which is a part of fascism. Fascism is a political system where government, privately owned corporations, and military work together to control the economy.


First Hitler is a capitalist, then he's a fascist, those are two completely opposite ideologies, fracken pick one and make up your mind.


He was BOTH, one is a political system, the other is an economic system. You figure out which is which


Mussolini created the system of Fascism, and Italy practiced corporatism. The state came before the individual. He believed the state should be the master, not the people. It is in complete contrast to socialism, where the people have the power, not the state.


You are incorrect, Political and economic systems are inseparable. One will always effect the other. Don't marginalize the discussion just because you are confused.

If fascism is collusion of corporation and state, and capitalism is the absence of collusion, how could a person possibly believe in, or practice both?


edit on 2-2-2012 by aravoth because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 11:29 PM
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reply to post by Shred
 


So are communities and families in Norway completely destroyed by socialism and high taxes? I think not.
You just have to say no to the fear and be of service and help your brothers and sisters.



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 11:29 PM
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Originally posted by aravoth

Originally posted by NoHierarchy

Originally posted by aravoth

Originally posted by ANOK
We have cell phones, but we still rely on oil for fuel?



yeah, and that happens because people want to artificially control prices so that things can be "affordable and fair to everyone". So we subsidize oil so everyone can have access to it, because thats apparently the "fair thing to do right? Everyone sharing the burden?

Don't even blame that crap on capitalism, you have no idea what you are talking about. Had there been none of this B.S. "Fair Prices" and "access for everyone" the market would have pushed out electric cars in mass years ago. It was, and still is in demand. But none wants to lift the subsidy, because then "poor people would be left out".

Capitalism has nothing to do with that. Not even close.



So... in a freer market, these oil companies DIDN'T lobby (and hijack) our government to subsidize them and do their bidding?? What you don't realize is that... so long as government exists, if you free the market of regulations, then there is NOTHING STOPPING LARGE COMPANIES FROM HIJACKING GOVERNMENT ALL OVER AGAIN! You NEED regulations to prevent this, period. There is nothing in a free market that inherently PREVENTS companies from using any opportunity to profit/expand/win. If it means out-competing another company, so be it, if it means hijacking government to help them out, so be it. There are no rules, it's gambling and it gets dirty... this corporatism we have is born of an unholy alliance of Capitalism and government.

It's ALL part of Capitalism in state society... and GUESS WHAT! Capitalism was BORN of state-society! Capitalism was BORN of hierarchy, nation-states, civilization, exploitation, money/profit/monetary systems, and of stratification. They go hand in hand... ownership and states were born together as one during the Agricultural Revolution. Look it up.
edit on 2-2-2012 by NoHierarchy because: (no reason given)


regulations are written by corporations so that they alone will benefit, you want more of that? be my guest. You people are confused, severely


*facepalm*

Nevermind.



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 11:30 PM
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Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by NoHierarchy

WRONG AGAIN.

Republicans of THAT DAY AND AGE in American history were SOCIALIST-LEANING.

The DEMOCRATS were SOUTHERN DEMOCRATS and are considered to be conservative and largely racist.

DO YOUR HOMEWORK.



The BS leftwingers try to tell themselves to twist the truth... WOW...

"Republicans were socialist-leaning"


I guess that's why they wrote the Constitution of the United States huh?...

Do you forget that the constitution states for example EVERY individual has the right to private property?...

Is that a tenet of socialism?...

How can you not be ignorant of history, socialism, and the Constitution of the Republic of these United States making claims like that?...


edit on 2-2-2012 by ElectricUniverse because: (no reason given)


Stop feigning your laughter. You are terribly uneducated on these matters and I suggest you educate yourself before you speak further. As others have pointed out, you've demonstrated serious lacking in this debate.



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 11:31 PM
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Originally posted by NoHierarchy

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by NoHierarchy
Oh shut up...

If anyone's a danger it's you right-wingers... arming yourselves to hunt down liberals... JUST LIKE HITLER DID. But no worries. we'll NEVER LET THAT HAPPEN AGAIN. If brown-shirts start storming around (I don't care if they're right or left wing) at the behest of any truly authoritarian government or economic system, they will be snuffed out. Stop attacking people who should be your allies, it's despicable and stupid.


Try to shut me up...

BTW, talking about Hitler...


"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions." --Adolf Hitler

(Speech of May 1, 1927. Quoted by Toland, 1976, p. 306)

constitutionalistnc.tripod.com...

I wonder where I heard that before?..


But of course socialists are going to TRY to claim "he wasn't a real socialist" but he was...

FACTS speak for themselves...



Has it not already been stated MULTIPLE TIMES that Hitler used a budding Socialist revolution to gain power and then KILLED OFF ALL OF THE SOCIALIST-LEANING PARTY MEMBERS then instituted a FAR RIGHT-WING FASCIST GOVERNMENT and actively hunted down socialists, liberals, communists, jews, gays, union members, and so on??


Well back then right wing was essentially todays left wing, you see over time the left wing has polluted the meaning of words to hide the fact that they are psychopaths.



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 11:34 PM
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Originally posted by NoHierarchy

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by NoHierarchy

WRONG AGAIN.

Republicans of THAT DAY AND AGE in American history were SOCIALIST-LEANING.

The DEMOCRATS were SOUTHERN DEMOCRATS and are considered to be conservative and largely racist.

DO YOUR HOMEWORK.



The BS leftwingers try to tell themselves to twist the truth... WOW...

"Republicans were socialist-leaning"


I guess that's why they wrote the Constitution of the United States huh?...

Do you forget that the constitution states for example EVERY individual has the right to private property?...

Is that a tenet of socialism?...

How can you not be ignorant of history, socialism, and the Constitution of the Republic of these United States making claims like that?...


edit on 2-2-2012 by ElectricUniverse because: (no reason given)


Stop feigning your laughter. You are terribly uneducated on these matters and I suggest you educate yourself before you speak further. As others have pointed out, you've demonstrated serious lacking in this debate.


what debate? the only thing you have been saying is, "you don't know the facts", or "you are lacking", or, "you don't understand history".

You aren't debating anything, you're just considering people that don't agree with you as moronic. And you are quoting each other to prove your points, it's hilarious.



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 11:34 PM
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Originally posted by aravoth

Originally posted by ANOK
reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


Damn look at your own signature...

"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen." - Samuel Adams

Liberty was a left wing term until the 1950's, when it was appropriated by the right in America.

Understanding history will help you understand the rest. Samuel Adams was an early left-wing thinker.

"Were the talents and virtues which heaven has bestowed on men given merely to make them more obedient drudges, to be sacrificed to the follies and ambition of a few? Or, were not the noble gifts so equally dispensed with a divine purpose and law, that they should as nearly as possible be equally exerted, and the blessings of Providence be equally enjoyed by all?

Classic early left wing thinking, before left wing ideas were fully realised that became socialism. Again you are confused because you are taught socialism is something other than the original definition. Socialism as it is seen now by the mainstream, is not the way people saw it in the 1700, 1800 and early 1900's.

"If ever time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." --Samuel Adams

Which is what capitalism has done. That is not what Sam Adams was advocating.


EVERY SINGLE PERSON WITH ANY HISTORICAL INFLUENCE AT ALL WAS A LEFT WING THINKER TO YOU!

And liberty was NOT a left wing term, that is by far the most stupid thing you have said today. Like the "left" invented the word..... good god you people are insane.



Do your homework:

en.wikipedia.org...

Yep... Libertarianism was LEFT-WING and utilized by Anarchists and... GASP!... even Anarcho-COMMIES!!!

RUN FOR THE HILLS!!!



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 11:35 PM
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Whoever brings up Hitler first loses
It is a rule for any discussion please observe that rule in the future.

However all you need do is look at who financed Mr. Hitler it is a matter of public record.

Is there a chance for the middle path? Is the middle path some sort of benign anarchy?



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 11:37 PM
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Originally posted by NoHierarchy


Actually... the progressive tax is a very common-sense and decent mode of taxation. It makes sense. Not only that but the courts have upheld it as constitutional on at least a couple occasions, it is also bolstered by the 16th Amendment to the Constitution:


Which goes against Article I, Section 8, Clause 1: Which states...

The Congress shall have power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises...but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States...

As for the Supreme Court... it has been bought and paid for thanks to leftwingers, not that long ago they ruled that corporations have the same rights as people...



Originally posted by NoHierarchy
Not to mention, Adam Smith, the "father" of Capitalism, seems to have contributed to the invention of the progressive tax.

And no... it's not part of the "One world order".


The founding fathers all differed in some opinions...

Some thought a central bank was necessary, others thought it was a bad idea... What counts is what they had originally agreed on...



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 11:37 PM
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reply to post by ANOK
 


Well yeah in a socialist utopia. In reality the state is always the master.

National Socialist Germany was a weird system. Not too different from modern China, with a similar ruling system and economic policies but with loads of welfare, animal rights, nature preservation and Darwinism thrown into the mix.



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 11:39 PM
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Originally posted by NoHierarchy

Originally posted by aravoth

Originally posted by ANOK
reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


Damn look at your own signature...

"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen." - Samuel Adams

Liberty was a left wing term until the 1950's, when it was appropriated by the right in America.

Understanding history will help you understand the rest. Samuel Adams was an early left-wing thinker.

"Were the talents and virtues which heaven has bestowed on men given merely to make them more obedient drudges, to be sacrificed to the follies and ambition of a few? Or, were not the noble gifts so equally dispensed with a divine purpose and law, that they should as nearly as possible be equally exerted, and the blessings of Providence be equally enjoyed by all?

Classic early left wing thinking, before left wing ideas were fully realised that became socialism. Again you are confused because you are taught socialism is something other than the original definition. Socialism as it is seen now by the mainstream, is not the way people saw it in the 1700, 1800 and early 1900's.

"If ever time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." --Samuel Adams

Which is what capitalism has done. That is not what Sam Adams was advocating.


EVERY SINGLE PERSON WITH ANY HISTORICAL INFLUENCE AT ALL WAS A LEFT WING THINKER TO YOU!

And liberty was NOT a left wing term, that is by far the most stupid thing you have said today. Like the "left" invented the word..... good god you people are insane.



Do your homework:

en.wikipedia.org...

Yep... Libertarianism was LEFT-WING and utilized by Anarchists and... GASP!... even Anarcho-COMMIES!!!

RUN FOR THE HILLS!!!


So let me get this straight, Anarchists, and classic liberals, people who wanted the absolute least amount of government possible, are the same people you are comparing with todays left wing?

I get it, you're confused... it's ok, there are a lot of people like you out there.



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 11:42 PM
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Originally posted by aravoth

Originally posted by ANOK
reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


Again if you read through this damn thread you will see this have been covered already.

The right appropriated left wing terms to gain support from the people who were heavily left wing at that time. Hitler was lying about being a socialist in that speech.

Hitler supported capitalism, no workers ever owned the means of production in Nazi Germany. He was a fascist, he was in league with Mussolini and Franco, he put socialists in the camps, he fought the socialist in Spain.

You are the one that doesn't understand the history of Europe.

"I absolutely insist on protecting private property... we must encourage private initiative" Hitler.


edit on 2/2/2012 by ANOK because: typo


yeah, now Hitler is a capitalist? ROFL he used Jewish slaves to work in state sponsored corporations, and that makes him a capitalist?

First Hitler is a capitalist, then he's a fascist, those are two completely opposite ideologies, fracken pick one and make up your mind.

You say Hitler lied about being a socialist. Then you post a quote about him protecting private property. But you apparently missed the part where he seized private businesses, and all private property owned by people like me. You think he did that because he was....what..... "insisting on protecting private property"?

your entire argument is crap.
edit on 2-2-2012 by aravoth because: (no reason given)


HE WAS A FASCIST.

A fascist is a right-wing authoritarian.

A state-communist is a left-wing authoritarian.

EITHER ONE IS GOING TO KILL DISSIDENTS AND SEIZE PROPERTY/POWER. End of story.



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