Why my mind is closing towards Capitalism

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


it doesnt need to be.... do you not think there are enough brilliant minds in the world today to create a system that is fair for everyone, a modern system... that allows private property.

Originally posted by JimmyNeutron
reply to post by ANOK

 

Oh no... I've read the whole thread and have been following along. Those of you promoting socialism keep beating the same statements to death. I mean really? Is Spain the only shining light of "true" socialism you can hold up?

I've listened to your assertions regarding Wall Street financing the Soviet Union, Spain scaring the crap out of the elitists, and how wonderful it would be to have the collective own the means of production.

It's not that I can't envision what you are talking about - it's just that your logic and estimation of human character are sadly lacking.

Then you still have not understood anything. I will continue repeating myself until it becomes clear. What has happened here is a massive distortion of the actual original meaning of words. This is not funny at all. Electricuniverse is a total mess, everything she believes are distorted conclusions based on falsifications of the very words. So I will keep beating the same drum. There is no other way.
People enter this topic without reading what has been said before and repeat the same arguments based on the same mistakes that others made before, so I have to repeat. I don't mind. This is fun.

Originally posted by ImaFungi

yes but would the world work if everyone was a business owner? can everyone be a ceo?

See that's the lie they feed people.

If everyone was a business owner who be the workers?

Under socialism everyone owns the business they work at, everyone owns the right to the products they create within the voluntary collective they work at. Socialism is the only way that can work. Capitalism will always create hierarchies.

reply to post by ANOK

Socialism puts the power into the hands of the workers to control their own destiny.

We could have voluntary associations to manage industry, workers would retain the rights to the products of their labour. The workers would be inevitably making the decisions, through direct democratic collectives. So instead of a worker simply being a passive underpaid cog in the machine, they become a productive active participant, and would earn the true value of their labour.

The above quotes are from two separate posts of yours. I don't exactly understand though...what is it that the "workers" would be managing?

Originally posted by L00kingGlass
"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." -Thatcher

Umm... no, that's a problem of BALANCING BUDGETS... which nobody in their right mind is against. It's also a matter of far more Democratic societies giving people real voices so that they are satisfied with the level of taxation as well as the benefits gained from it.

Some of the most prosperous times for Americans were when tax rates were very high on the wealthy... upwards of 70% (compared with 0-35% today, depending on the amount of tax-dodging employed). Also... Social Democracies like you see in Canada, France, Germany, and Scandinavia are actually very prosperous and afford their populations some very decent benefits:

en.wikipedia.org...

and even entrepreneurs enjoy the high taxes for what they provide (the higher taxes/benefits even REDUCE RISK for their entrepreneurial efforts!)

In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

Originally posted by aravoth
reply to post by ElectricUniverse

 

Most people in here are just learning this stuff in college, so they'll just keep regurgitating what their professor or textbook tells them until they finally get a job in real life. Once that happens it'll be a few more years of complaining because they got a degree in a useless field of study and want everyone else to pay it off for them, cause thats the "fair thing to do". When they realize that the only way that thing is going to get paid off is by working, they'll bitch and moan about society and wonder why everyone can't be just as miserable as they are, living poor and sharing work on a farm.

Until they finally get old, and complain even more that someone owes them a retirement.

It's funny because they think this is a new thing, or some kind of "awakening", really it's a bunch of people who's lives can be summed up by an enormous collection of bad choices they personally made, and they lash out at those that did not make bad choices because of it.

They won't ever understand what you are talking about, because they think they know better than you. They are absolutely convinced of it, and they only speak in echo chambers.

I take it that you've never been to a university where studies revolve around society and not making profit- or perhaps you've never been to university at all.

Yes I deserve my wealth, every fracken penny of it, and not a single one of you are entitled to the wealth I created.

I take it that you'll save all of your excess wealth in a bank somewhere while people strive to survive around you, and then when you die you'll pass on your excess wealth to some pampered child who will take over the reigns on your business without any real experience of working from the bottom, and will excell at making even more profit at the expense of his workers.

This is my main contention with capitalism- I'm fine with it until people hoard money and their next generation takes over without any real experience of knowing what it is like to be a worker with nothing.

ElectricUniverse-
BTW Anok, the PEOPLE of Spain voted the socialists OUT OF POWER... Just in case you didn't know...

Just in case you didn't know, NATO and Spanish nationalists have promoted right-wing terrorism to terrorize and undermine socialists for over half a century. And the reason why the socialists just got voted out of government? Because the EU pinned neo-liberal deregulation on them, the people naturally responded negatively to it, and then they voted in the pro-austerity government who would be happy to deregulate more of the Spanish state so other EU countries can buy up its own assets.

reply to post by maestromason


I just think the world is messed, and no systems presently will create a positive outcome for the future...
i dont think there is any plan defined of what a positive outcome for the future may be..
because it is every man for himself, and as long as he has a secure place, all will be well...
if there is a future humanity I wonder what they will think of these times... the arguments, the systems,the views from the minds and hearts of the currently living..

that all these arguments, all these points in this thread,occurring throughout the
history of man coming to the most hectic times of now,,, are the reasons why you think S might H the F....


the pot has been boiling since time immemorial
when removed from the flame, the climate will change
the water shall spill, or the water shall still
nothing will be the same, to gain love
or give pain

Originally posted by Tea4One

It's common ownership. To hold the means of production in common, everyone would own it.

Oooh so EVERYONE is those few people who own that store?...

There is no such thing as "common ownership" in socialism or in communism...

In socialism/communism the people in power, who were in power from the beginning and claim they would give up this power later on, are the ones who decide what happens with the means of production... The PEOPLE do not own anything...

Heck, you can lose your house, the house that was built by hand by your parents or grandparents if those in power say that your house must go to another family...

Originally posted by Tea4One
No it isn't. Dictatorship of the proletariat is far from the genocidal policies of Mao etc. These despots were not socialists either. Hitler wasn't a socialist either. Go read a history book for gods sake.

Dictatorship of the "proletariat" is open war, and murder against anyone who owns any property and doesn't want to give it up "for the good of the revolution"... Owners include not only the top 1% which normally are able to escape before a nation is completely taken over by socialists/communists because they are rich. The owners who really get f...... are small business owners, including farmers who owned land, ANY SIZE, and anyone who doesn't want to give up their principles and, or their property...

Originally posted by Tea4One

Which aren't socialist or communist. It's pretty easy if you understand what socialism actually is.

I actually understand and know better than you what socialism/communism really is, I lived it, and experienced it, unlike you...

Originally posted by Tea4One
Cooperative enterprise. Cooperative meaning working together towards something and enterprise meaning a project to be undertaken. Use a dictionary.

wow, you truly don't know where to hide anymore...

Let's use the LEFTWINGER's number one source of information AGAIN...

Market socialism consists of publicly owned or cooperatively owned enterprises operating in a market economy...

en.wikipedia.org...

What form of "cooperative enterprise" operates in a market economy?... A BUSINESS...

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by Tea4One
I believe ANOK would open a business along the lines of the 'Alvarado Street Bakery' as seen in Michael Moore's Capitalism A Love Story, if ANOK was to ever open a business that is.

Oh boy oh boy... What is it in the words PRIVATE PROPERTY IS ABOLISHED IN SOCIALISM/COMMUNISM that you don't understand?...

How can anyone OWN anything in a true socialist/communist state when private ownership is abolished?...

Why is it so hard for some people to understand this?...

edit on 2-2-2012 by ElectricUniverse because: (no reason given)

No you are essentially correct. What is the problem?

There is no private property. Period. The community shares the revenues, takes care of each other.

It is essential that each individual is encouraged to do that what he a inclination for. We are all different. We can all contribute in our ways.

TextAre you man enough? Ask the posters on the walls,Have you got what it takes? Guts and balls?Keep your myth of manhood, it's been going on too long,A history of slaughter is the proof that it is wrong.

Cool song

Originally posted by Tsurugi

The above quotes are from two separate posts of yours. I don't exactly understand though...what is it that the "workers" would be managing?

Their own labour. Workers would maintain the rights to the product they produce.

Never hear of worker cooperatives? Employee owned businesses?

I'm done typing back hurts and I'm tired lol, so I'll just post this...

Socialism, in it's traditional and true definition, means "the workers democratic ownership and/or control of the means of production". Such a definition implies that rather than a government bureaucracy for managing such means, there is a focus on highly democratic organisation, education and awareness, and every individual is encouraged to become an active, rather than passive participant in that which effect their lives. Only the workers themselves bear the knowledge of what their own freedom and liberty means, and only they know what is best for themselves, ultimately. Advocates of the state, be they on the left, or the right, have repeatedly defined the meaning of "socialism" to mean arbitrary rule by a set of "leaders", or a political con-game in which socialism is no more than capitalism with a few token adjustments for bearability.

flag.blackened.net...

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by maestromason
If the jobs are not there CREATE THEM!

Get out of the worker-bee/rat race mentality and get off your posterior and CREATE AND PRODUCE FOR YOURSELF AND STOP WAITING FOR SOMEONE ELSE'S COMPANY TO OPEN UP AND "GIVE" YOU A JOB.

that in itself is pathetic as h3ll!

Create the jobs?

And where, pray be, did the capital for your business come from?

Sorry ollncasino I missed this one... The capital to start my firms came from other business ventures that I was in so I did not have to borrow money from any financial institutions. Then as my business grew venture capitalist and angel investors came into the picture but much later as I was expanding my market area to include those very influential and exquisite areas where the 1% play year around here in the states. Then I expanded my operations to include the global market place in 2002 in anticipation of 2008 and have been getting clients from Lille, France, Paris, France, Germany, Sweden and abroad.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


You seem to be getting socialism mixed up with democratic centralism.

You didn't experience it. No one has experienced socialism apart from those in the various movements and those weren't for a long enough time to see it out.

That's market socialism or state capitalism. Neither are true socialism. If we're going by wiki "Socialism is an economic system characterized by social ownership or control of the means of production and cooperative management of the economy."

Originally posted by aravoth

Originally posted by NoHierarchy

Originally posted by aravoth
reply to post by ElectricUniverse

 

Most people in here are just learning this stuff in college, so they'll just keep regurgitating what their professor or textbook tells them until they finally get a job in real life. Once that happens it'll be a few more years of complaining because they got a degree in a useless field of study and want everyone else to pay it off for them, cause thats the "fair thing to do". When they realize that the only way that thing is going to get paid off is by working, they'll bitch and moan about society and wonder why everyone can't be just as miserable as they are, living poor and sharing work on a farm.

Until they finally get old, and complain even more that someone owes them a retirement.

It's funny because they think this is a new thing, or some kind of "awakening", really it's a bunch of people who's lives can be summed up by an enormous collection of bad choices they personally made, and they lash out at those that did not make bad choices because of it.

They won't ever understand what you are talking about, because they think they know better than you. They are absolutely convinced of it, and they only speak in echo chambers.

edit on 2-2-2012 by aravoth because: (no reason given)

edit on 2-2-2012 by aravoth because: (no reason given)

lol right right... blame the poor! That's great... blame the poor for being poor because the rich are just this bastion of intelligence, hard work, drive, purpose, good decisions, and blah blah blah... It just COULDN'T be the system, right?? The system is PERFECT! The people just need to cater it IT rather than it catering to PEOPLE! Yes! Brilliant!!
/end-sarcasm

Sounds like you need to read my thread:


Do the rich DESERVE their money?

edit on 2-2-2012 by NoHierarchy because: (no reason given)

Yeah... don't give me an emotional speech tugging at heartstrings, I was dirt poor, so were my parents, I actually did live on a farm, and grew or killed our food, it's how I grew up. Nothing comes easy kid, and I would literally burn my business to the ground before I ever allowed anyone, including my employees, to take it from me.

Yes I deserve my wealth, every fracken penny of it, and not a single one of you are entitled to the wealth I created.

So were your parents lazy bums? Were they stupid? Were they not driven? Were they not decent people? Did they not want to have more money?? What was it, man?? MY ENTIRE POINT IS THAT YOU FAIL TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE SYSTEM YOU LIVE WITHIN MORE/LESS DICTATES HOW FAR ANY NUMBER OF PEOPLE CAN GO AND HOW EASILY THEY CAN GET THERE. Point is... there's just not enough to go around within this system... even though THERE IS. Futhermore, things are made excessively difficult for people for no apparent reason. Of course we're the land of opportunity compared to third-world sh**holes and dictatorships... but that's not settin the bar very high is it?? The distribution of wealth is NOT LOGICAL in how it's dispersed... sometimes it is, but many times it's arbitrary and based upon market games, luck, theft, and/or ruthlessness. That's why you're playing the market right now, playing entrepreneur, to strike it rich... or at least comfortable, and I DON'T BLAME YOU. But don't for one second believe that you're not at the whims of a system which makes it pretty damn hard on you and most others to rise above (especially after the recession). I grew up poor too, bordering into middle class (would've been if parents were in such deep debt), now I'm on my own and poor, I've actually thought of starting my own business. However, like Anok, I'd prefer it to be a cooperative if I did.

What you also don't realize is that EVERY entrepreneur gained wealth BECAUSE OF the help, efforts, contributions, value of OTHERS. No entrepreneur is an island that somehow magically gained their wealth without using structures (whether real or virtual) created/maintained by others, or without using (aka exploiting) the resources/labors of others, or without generally deriving any kind of energy or leaving some kind of footprint. I'm not saying you're this evil Capitalist pig mastermind who is relishing in exploiting his workers... what I'm saying is that the system is larger than that, it's unconscious, we're trying to get you to ANALYZE it and realize that, though you and your workers need it and agreed to it, it's still a system developed by others and one that encourages varying degrees of exploitation of, by, and for you.

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

Originally posted by aravoth
reply to post by ElectricUniverse

 

Most people in here are just learning this stuff in college, so they'll just keep regurgitating what their professor or textbook tells them until they finally get a job in real life. Once that happens it'll be a few more years of complaining because they got a degree in a useless field of study and want everyone else to pay it off for them, cause thats the "fair thing to do". When they realize that the only way that thing is going to get paid off is by working, they'll bitch and moan about society and wonder why everyone can't be just as miserable as they are, living poor and sharing work on a farm.

Until they finally get old, and complain even more that someone owes them a retirement.

It's funny because they think this is a new thing, or some kind of "awakening", really it's a bunch of people who's lives can be summed up by an enormous collection of bad choices they personally made, and they lash out at those that did not make bad choices because of it.

They won't ever understand what you are talking about, because they think they know better than you. They are absolutely convinced of it, and they only speak in echo chambers.

I take it that you've never been to a university where studies revolve around society and not making profit- or perhaps you've never been to university at all.

Yes I deserve my wealth, every fracken penny of it, and not a single one of you are entitled to the wealth I created.

I take it that you'll save all of your excess wealth in a bank somewhere while people strive to survive around you, and then when you die you'll pass on your excess wealth to some pampered child who will take over the reigns on your business without any real experience of working from the bottom, and will excell at making even more profit at the expense of his workers.

This is my main contention with capitalism- I'm fine with it until people hoard money and their next generation takes over without any real experience of knowing what it is like to be a worker with nothing.

ElectricUniverse-
BTW Anok, the PEOPLE of Spain voted the socialists OUT OF POWER... Just in case you didn't know...

Just in case you didn't know, NATO and Spanish nationalists have promoted right-wing terrorism to terrorize and undermine socialists for over half a century. And the reason why the socialists just got voted out of government? Because the EU pinned neo-liberal deregulation on them, the people naturally responded negatively to it, and then they voted in the pro-austerity government who would be happy to deregulate more of the Spanish state so other EU countries can buy up its own assets.

Nah, I've got a few letters after my name, and what do you have against parents leaving something for their children?

reply to post by ANOK


It's three o'clock at night here. I need get some rest. I have ze rezponzibitiez tomorrow. This was a lot of fun. You're the brightest poster around.

Yep capitalism creates artificial scarcity, which makes it very difficult for people to better their lives.

All we need is the means and the labour to make everyone fat and happy, and we have an abundance of both.

Scarcity is an artificial creation of capitalism.

Originally posted by aravoth

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by JimmyNeutron
Oh no... I've read the whole thread and have been following along. Those of you promoting socialism keep beating the same statements to death. I mean really? Is Spain the only shining light of "true" socialism you can hold up?
...

Spain?... is Anok trying to use Spain as an example?...

I have family in Spain, and lived there for almost 10 years.

BTW Anok, the PEOPLE of Spain voted the socialists OUT OF POWER... Just in case you didn't know...

no he's pointing to a three year block of time during the great depression/WWII in spain where a bunch of people banded together and created an Agrarianistic society, for a whole three years. He think it will work for making cars, iphones, medical equipment, and airplanes.

Who said we NEED iphones or many other consumer goods just recently introduced?? We live on a FINITE planet. And most of those products are created on virtual slave labor in despotic countries with "open" markets.

Originally posted by NoHierarchy

Originally posted by aravoth

Originally posted by NoHierarchy

Originally posted by aravoth
reply to post by ElectricUniverse

 

Most people in here are just learning this stuff in college, so they'll just keep regurgitating what their professor or textbook tells them until they finally get a job in real life. Once that happens it'll be a few more years of complaining because they got a degree in a useless field of study and want everyone else to pay it off for them, cause thats the "fair thing to do". When they realize that the only way that thing is going to get paid off is by working, they'll bitch and moan about society and wonder why everyone can't be just as miserable as they are, living poor and sharing work on a farm.

Until they finally get old, and complain even more that someone owes them a retirement.

It's funny because they think this is a new thing, or some kind of "awakening", really it's a bunch of people who's lives can be summed up by an enormous collection of bad choices they personally made, and they lash out at those that did not make bad choices because of it.

They won't ever understand what you are talking about, because they think they know better than you. They are absolutely convinced of it, and they only speak in echo chambers.

edit on 2-2-2012 by aravoth because: (no reason given)

edit on 2-2-2012 by aravoth because: (no reason given)

lol right right... blame the poor! That's great... blame the poor for being poor because the rich are just this bastion of intelligence, hard work, drive, purpose, good decisions, and blah blah blah... It just COULDN'T be the system, right?? The system is PERFECT! The people just need to cater it IT rather than it catering to PEOPLE! Yes! Brilliant!!
/end-sarcasm

Sounds like you need to read my thread:


Do the rich DESERVE their money?

edit on 2-2-2012 by NoHierarchy because: (no reason given)

Yeah... don't give me an emotional speech tugging at heartstrings, I was dirt poor, so were my parents, I actually did live on a farm, and grew or killed our food, it's how I grew up. Nothing comes easy kid, and I would literally burn my business to the ground before I ever allowed anyone, including my employees, to take it from me.

Yes I deserve my wealth, every fracken penny of it, and not a single one of you are entitled to the wealth I created.

So were your parents lazy bums? Were they stupid? Were they not driven? Were they not decent people? Did they not want to have more money?? What was it, man?? MY ENTIRE POINT IS THAT YOU FAIL TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE SYSTEM YOU LIVE WITHIN MORE/LESS DICTATES HOW FAR ANY NUMBER OF PEOPLE CAN GO AND HOW EASILY THEY CAN GET THERE. Point is... there's just not enough to go around within this system... even though THERE IS. Futhermore, things are made excessively difficult for people for no apparent reason. Of course we're the land of opportunity compared to third-world sh**holes and dictatorships... but that's not settin the bar very high is it?? The distribution of wealth is NOT LOGICAL in how it's dispersed... sometimes it is, but many times it's arbitrary and based upon market games, luck, theft, and/or ruthlessness. That's why you're playing the market right now, playing entrepreneur, to strike it rich... or at least comfortable, and I DON'T BLAME YOU. But don't for one second believe that you're not at the whims of a system which makes it pretty damn hard on you and most others to rise above (especially after the recession). I grew up poor too, bordering into middle class (would've been if parents were in such deep debt), now I'm on my own and poor, I've actually thought of starting my own business. However, like Anok, I'd prefer it to be a cooperative if I did.

What you also don't realize is that EVERY entrepreneur gained wealth BECAUSE OF the help, efforts, contributions, value of OTHERS. No entrepreneur is an island that somehow magically gained their wealth without using structures (whether real or virtual) created/maintained by others, or without using (aka exploiting) the resources/labors of others, or without generally deriving any kind of energy or leaving some kind of footprint. I'm not saying you're this evil Capitalist pig mastermind who is relishing in exploiting his workers... what I'm saying is that the system is larger than that, it's unconscious, we're trying to get you to ANALYZE it and realize that, though you and your workers need it and agreed to it, it's still a system developed by others and one that encourages varying degrees of exploitation of, by, and for you.

are suggesting that no one gets exploited under a socialist society?

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
In socialism/communism the people in power, who were in power from the beginning and claim they would give up this power later on, are the ones who decide what happens with the means of production... The PEOPLE do not own anything...

And this exposes your ignorance on the subject: You're not even talking about the socialist system, which is probably indicative that you don't understand it. Instead, you are describing what has happened in some countries that have/had socialist institutions, as if those conditions are part of socialism.

I've heard many uneducated people describe this exact same nonsense to me before. "But socialism can't happen without dictatorship" and so on. This is just beyond nonsense.

Socialism is a social institution that can be integrated, politically, by varying degrees. It doesn't even have to have anything to do with politics. It's more of a function designed to keep disparity levels from becoming too excessive. It is also essential to implement within a faltering country to save it from economic collapse (ie, Keynesism).

As far as I'm concerned, if someone doesn't support socialism, then they probably support class war and hegemony based on how much money somebody owns (which inevitably includes the working class being dependent on the rich to survive). You might as well support some kind of libertarian corporate feudalism if you can't stand socialism so much just so you can make it clear of which side of the class war you stand (which certainly wouldn't be on my side).

PS: My bias for socialism probably comes from the fact that I grew up in a small town where people had very little and naturally worked together (more or less). We didn't discriminate because of class hegemony because we were all on the same level. Life there, was virtually socialism, except nobody really cared enough about politics to see it as so.

I didn't meet hardcore capitalists until I started my city adventures. I've noticed that in larger population zones, people tend to be quite individualistic (for various reasons). A lot of city people, while still just as uninterested in politics, showed themselves off to despise any type of "sharing" among the strangers that they end up around. Now I can probably right a whole manifesto on the differences between social class structure and politics within rural and urban settings, but I'll keep it simple; the closer people are to each other, the more socialist minded they are. The exception is when people actually go out of their way to learn the politics behind society and make their own assertions, which is how a socialist-minded person like myself managed to end up in a hostile urban environment.