Why my mind is closing towards Capitalism

Originally posted by JimmyNeutron
Oh no... I've read the whole thread and have been following along. Those of you promoting socialism keep beating the same statements to death. I mean really? Is Spain the only shining light of "true" socialism you can hold up?
...

Spain?... is Anok trying to use Spain as an example?...

I have family in Spain, and lived there for almost 10 years.

BTW Anok, the PEOPLE of Spain voted the socialists OUT OF POWER... Just in case you didn't know...

Originally posted by aravoth
reply to post by ElectricUniverse

 

Most people in here are just learning this stuff in college, so they'll just keep regurgitating what their professor or textbook tells them until they finally get a job in real life. Once that happens it'll be a few more years of complaining because they got a degree in a useless field of study and want everyone else to pay it off for them, cause thats the "fair thing to do". When they realize that the only way that thing is going to get paid off is by working, they'll bitch and moan about society and wonder why everyone can't be just as miserable as they are, living poor and sharing work on a farm.

Until they finally get old, and complain even more that someone owes them a retirement.

It's funny because they think this is a new thing, or some kind of "awakening", really it's a bunch of people who's lives can be summed up by an enormous collection of bad choices they personally made, and they lash out at those that did not make bad choices because of it.

They won't ever understand what you are talking about, because they think they know better than you. They are absolutely convinced of it, and they only speak in echo chambers.

edit on 2-2-2012 by aravoth because: (no reason given)

edit on 2-2-2012 by aravoth because: (no reason given)

lol right right... blame the poor! That's great... blame the poor for being poor because the rich are just this bastion of intelligence, hard work, drive, purpose, good decisions, and blah blah blah... It just COULDN'T be the system, right?? The system is PERFECT! The people just need to cater it IT rather than it catering to PEOPLE! Yes! Brilliant!!
/end-sarcasm

Sounds like you need to read my thread:


Do the rich DESERVE their money?

Originally posted by ANOK


No, why would I? If I opened a company it would be a cooperative/collective. I have no desire to make money exploiting people.

Then you definitely won't be opening, or operating a business anytime, ever in fact.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


Again you have no idea what the discussion it about.

READ the thread and it will make sense, OK?

A hint, Spain in the 1930's not today.

reply to post by JimmyNeutron


The factory council movement in Italy would be another one we could hold up. It ended due to a few reasons but it did show that workers can control the means of production.

libcom.org...

For democratic self-governance many would cite the Paris commune.

libcom.org...

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." -Thatcher

Originally posted by aravoth

Then you definitely won't be opening, or operating a business anytime, ever in fact.

Huh? How do you know I don't have my own business? I don't work for anybody mate.

Why can't you discus the topic instead of me?

Originally posted by NoHierarchy

Originally posted by aravoth
reply to post by ElectricUniverse

 

Most people in here are just learning this stuff in college, so they'll just keep regurgitating what their professor or textbook tells them until they finally get a job in real life. Once that happens it'll be a few more years of complaining because they got a degree in a useless field of study and want everyone else to pay it off for them, cause thats the "fair thing to do". When they realize that the only way that thing is going to get paid off is by working, they'll bitch and moan about society and wonder why everyone can't be just as miserable as they are, living poor and sharing work on a farm.

Until they finally get old, and complain even more that someone owes them a retirement.

It's funny because they think this is a new thing, or some kind of "awakening", really it's a bunch of people who's lives can be summed up by an enormous collection of bad choices they personally made, and they lash out at those that did not make bad choices because of it.

They won't ever understand what you are talking about, because they think they know better than you. They are absolutely convinced of it, and they only speak in echo chambers.

edit on 2-2-2012 by aravoth because: (no reason given)

edit on 2-2-2012 by aravoth because: (no reason given)

lol right right... blame the poor! That's great... blame the poor for being poor because the rich are just this bastion of intelligence, hard work, drive, purpose, good decisions, and blah blah blah... It just COULDN'T be the system, right?? The system is PERFECT! The people just need to cater it IT rather than it catering to PEOPLE! Yes! Brilliant!!
/end-sarcasm

Sounds like you need to read my thread:


Do the rich DESERVE their money?

edit on 2-2-2012 by NoHierarchy because: (no reason given)

Yeah... don't give me an emotional speech tugging at heartstrings, I was dirt poor, so were my parents, I actually did live on a farm, and grew or killed our food, it's how I grew up. Nothing comes easy kid, and I would literally burn my business to the ground before I ever allowed anyone, including my employees, to take it from me.

Yes I deserve my wealth, every fracken penny of it, and not a single one of you are entitled to the wealth I created.

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by maestromason

 

it is great you own a business and hire people and create wealth, no one is accusing you of being a bad person..

I am a Capitalist off course I am a bad person....especially when >90% of the world hates your guts and DO NOT EVEN KNOW YOU FROM ADAM just because you live in an extremely prosperous land of OPPORTUNITY and FREEDOM.

Then in order for you to become a capitalist then you MUST NOT WORK AT ALL? HUH? That is about as ignorant as IGNORANT GETS! WHOA!!! Somebody needs to go back and learn SOMETHING!

My Father could have quit his career at GE anytime and lived off of his inheritance(EXTREMELY LARGE TRUST) but did he NO! He chose to get an education and WORK for 40 years out of his life. You guys definition of Free-market Capitalist is all screwed up.

There is something called pride in ownership that also comes along with being an American Capitalist, but unless you are here you cannot see this POV.

reply to post by maestromason


yes but would the world work if everyone was a business owner? can everyone be a ceo?

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by JimmyNeutron
Oh no... I've read the whole thread and have been following along. Those of you promoting socialism keep beating the same statements to death. I mean really? Is Spain the only shining light of "true" socialism you can hold up?
...

Spain?... is Anok trying to use Spain as an example?...

I have family in Spain, and lived there for almost 10 years.

BTW Anok, the PEOPLE of Spain voted the socialists OUT OF POWER... Just in case you didn't know...

no he's pointing to a three year block of time during the great depression/WWII in spain where a bunch of people banded together and created an Agrarianistic society, for a whole three years. He think it will work for making cars, iphones, medical equipment, and airplanes.

Originally posted by Tea4One

Those "10 planks" are the motions of society in the transition to communism from socialism. The state in this context refers to the now proletariat controlled state or the dictatorship of the proletariat. This is coupled with the ownership of production.

You see, socialism and communism both are nothing but oxymorons, if no particular person CAN OWN ANYTHING how in the world is the proletariat in control of anything or owns anything?...

I actually lived and experienced the BS you are trying to sugar coat, and I know what I am talking about...

The "dictatorship of the proletariat" is nothing but constant WAR against anyone who doesn't want socialism/communism, which is why socialist/communists have murdered over 110 million people in less than 100 years, and that's without counting what Hitler, who was a national socialist, did...

Originally posted by Tea4One
In communism there is no state...

Riiight, that's what is CLAIMED, but never really happens, which is why Cuba, North Korea, China and every other socialist/communist nation do have a state/government...

Originally posted by Tea4One
The cooperative part means to cooperate. Y'know, work together. Not as a corporation.

The word is "COOPERATIVE ENTERPRISE" which refers to businesses...

Heck, I even gave the definition from a LEFTWING source and you are trying to twist it because you don't like the taste of truth...

Originally posted by L00kingGlass
"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." -Thatcher

And look what Thatcher did to the North of England.

I lived through that, the miners strikes, the riots. She is a lying scumbag.

It is 30 years since Margaret Thatcher entered No 10, setting in motion a revolution that would destroy the quasi-socialist political consensus of the postwar decades and, after much strife, turn Britain into the country it is today: riven, atomised, debt-stricken, hugely unequal, its prosperity excessively dependent on financial services, its public spaces degraded, and its towns, at least at night, the preserve of the binge drinker and the brawler.

www.newstatesman.com...



Most hated women in Britain. That will be a huge party in Trafalgar square when she get dragged down to the pits of hell.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse

Not really, centralization, and monopoly are pyramid schemes and neither one of them is part of capitalism...

Do tell me, what is "massive globalization" but a tenet of socialism/communism?...

In fact they are all capitalist schemes. They have nothing to do with socialism, socialism isn't even remotely interested in such things. Socialism is focused on the community, managing the resources, sharing and distributing wealth. Only private entities do these things. They are power hungry, profit-seeking and living within an atmosphere that encourages psychotic behaviour. Capitalism is a schizophrenic and psychopathic ideology. Research has shown that nearly all CEO's are basically psychopaths. The environment they live in, the market-competition-zone is a atmosphere that encourages and rewards corrupted and psychopathic behavior. It's good for business. The more senseless you are, the less you care for others, the less you feel others, the better you are for business.

Globalization is really nothing but the imposition of one modality (as chomsky puts it). To ensure that all nations in the world follow one model, one structure and abide to that authority. It is completely authoritarian and uses coercive methods to achieve it's goals.

I believe ANOK would open a business along the lines of the 'Alvarado Street Bakery' as seen in Michael Moore's Capitalism A Love Story, if ANOK was to ever open a business that is.

Alvarado Street Bakery is a worker-owned cooperative, owned and managed entirely by the employees. The 30-year-old bakery was included in the film as evidence that alternative business models can work. It produces sprouted wheat bread and bagels that are sold in grocery stores and natural food stores world-wide.

Source

Originally posted by aravoth
...
no he's pointing to a three year block of time during the great depression/WWII in spain where a bunch of people banded together and created an Agrarianistic society, for a whole three years. He think it will work for making cars, iphones, medical equipment, and airplanes.

oooh...wow, so he is talking about the communist take over in the 1930s?... The same communist take overt in which communists took priests, and religious people from the streets and murdered them en mass which is why the PEOPLE fought against these same communists?...

Wow, Anok, you truly are ignorant on the history of the murderous rampages that your people participated in...

Originally posted by Tea4One
I believe ANOK would open a business along the lines of the 'Alvarado Street Bakery' as seen in Michael Moore's Capitalism A Love Story, if ANOK was to ever open a business that is.

Oh boy oh boy... What is it in the words PRIVATE PROPERTY IS ABOLISHED IN SOCIALISM/COMMUNISM that you don't understand?...

How can anyone OWN anything in a true socialist/communist state when private ownership is abolished?...

Why is it so hard for some people to understand this?...

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


It's common ownership. To hold the means of production in common, everyone would own it.

No it isn't. Dictatorship of the proletariat is far from the genocidal policies of Mao etc. These despots were not socialists either. Hitler wasn't a socialist either. Go read a history book for gods sake.

Which aren't socialist or communist. It's pretty easy if you understand what socialism actually is.

Cooperative enterprise. Cooperative meaning working together towards something and enterprise meaning a project to be undertaken. Use a dictionary.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by NoHierarchy


Essentially... Capitalism is a giant/perpetual pyramid scheme...

Not really, centralization, and monopoly are pyramid schemes and neither one of them is part of capitalism...

Umm... sure... but we're talking about CAPITALISM which is an ECONOMIC pyramid scheme. Capitalism ALLOWS FOR centralization, stratification, and natural monopolies. How do you not understand this?

Originally posted by NoHierarchy
And combined with current massive globalization... it's a race to the bottom.

Do tell me, what is "massive globalization" but a tenet of socialism/communism?...

Democratising Global Governance:

The Challenges of the World Social Forum

by

Francesca Beausang



ABSTRACT

This paper sums up the debate that took place during the two round tables organized by UNESCO within the first World Social Forum in Porto Alegre (25/30 January 2001). It starts with a discussion of national processes, by examining democracy and then governance at the national level. It first states a case for a "joint" governance based on a combination of stakeholder theory, which is derived from corporate governance, and of UNESCO's priorities in the field of governance. As an example, the paper investigates how governance can deviate from democracy in the East Asian model. Subsequently, the global dimension of the debate on democracy and governance is examined, first by identification of the characteristics and agents of democracy in the global setting, and then by allusion to the difficulties of transposing governance to the global level.


...
The governments of Europe, the United States, and Japan are unlikely to negotiate a social-democratic pattern of globalization – unless their hands are forced by a popular movement or a catastrophe, such as another Great Depression or ecological disaster

www.unesco.org...

Globalization is a corporatist/Capitalist (but also neo-liberal/conservative) push for expansion of Western/Capitalist markets (and specifically our market entities) into other countries around the world. Naturally... our economic entities are far more wealthy/powerful and will basically strip other countries (to varying extents and over varying time-spans) of their local businesses, cultures, labors, and so on. This is essentially a macrocosm of what Walmart does when it enters a new town... it's a vampire to the locals and converts everything into an economic uniformity... which is NOT what we want. Capitalism promotes oppressive hierarchies/uniformity in its own special way just as state-Communism does!!

Also...
What you just quoted is the WORLD SOCIAL FORUM, not the IMF or World Bank, etc. You need to research what you're talking about...

en.wikipedia.org...


As for the World Bank/IMF:

en.wikipedia.org...

and

en.wikipedia.org...


They are quite complex organizations, but they support/assist Capitalist markets/countries and have been complicit in screwing over poorer countries in promotion of this.

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by maestromason

 

yes but would the world work if everyone was a business owner? can everyone be a ceo?

No, CEOs' are CHIEFS for a reason!

The whole point of Capitalism is to incorporate workers into an industrial scheme...without workers you have no Capitalism. What is your point again may I ask?..or is this just a merry-go-round of obvious statements that you want me to argue with?(but won't)