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Why my mind is closing towards Capitalism

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posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 06:23 PM
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Originally posted by ANOK
reply to post by ollncasino
 


Socialism didn't fail because socialism doesn't work, it failed because of outside forces.

That would be correct if you define "outside forces" as "reality".

Unless you remove all possibility of corruption, Socialism will NEVER work.
I have had the pleasure of experiencing how well things turn out for the work force when your goverment controls the industries (I lived in Cuba). Yes, I'm sure you are going to say but Cuba is not a true socialist country, but that is my point you will never get a true socialist country because of corruption.

I recall coming to America on a boat and traffic was fender to fender.The funny thing was, that the trafic was all heading North towards keywest. I didn't see even a fish on the south bound lane. So a trip for you to Cuba would be rather easy and quick but be careful on the delays when coming back.

If I were a socialist I wouldn't be worried about getting a socialist goverment, because capitalist are working hard to give it to you. I would put all my emphasis on coming up with a system that separates goverment officials or representatives from influences within the same industries they regulate. Heck, who knows maybe even capitalist society wouldn't be that bad.




Originally posted by ANOK
The worlds establishment don't want socialism, they will start world wars to stop it. They will call themselves socialist in order to garner support.

Funny, I couldn't think of a better system as a trillionaire capitalist investors group to have in place than socialism. All I would have to do is take control of representatives of each industry and then I can dictate what gets purchased and sold and therefore control the market. Having that control is what every power hungry and money hungry Capitalist dreams about. However, I'm sure greed and power will not exist in a socialist community.

This is why both Democrats and Republicans want bigger goverment and that is why Bush increased goverment and Obama increased goverment and Newt and Romney will continue to increase goverment control. The reason they are doing so, is because the capitalist lobbyist control our goverment , our government controls us , and therefore they control the market. Its better than a monopoly, since they will ultimately force on you what you can and cant buy .

If you want socialism in place just keep going with the flow and you will get your wish regardless which party is in place.

Funny that you mention wars:
If you control the goverment and lets assume for a crazy moment that you had some nice investments eggs sitting on some military corporate stocks and you were consumed by power and money. Would you try to use the goverment to start wars overseas. Nah that would be crazy, one of the parties would stop it for sure and neither party would induce fear mongering techniques to continue global conflicts. Nah no way, thats crazy talk.


Originally posted by ANOK
How can anyone trust what a politician tells them? Do you trust your own government that much?

Exactly, that is why socialism is awesome. They don't have politicians they have representatives from each industry. I got it, its not the power,money,greed,influences, position and control that makes a politician corrupt its the Title. Silly me!


Originally posted by ANOK
Socialism was working in Spain, against the odds, for three years, and was very successful turning a country in poverty to one where everyone was fed, clothed and housed. Food production rose 50%, city infrastructure and public transportation fixed. Trams were repaired and put back into service and were free to ride.


Thats awesome, So how long have you lived in Spain? I'm sure if I found paradise I would do what ever I could to move me and my family there.

Bottom line, socialist and democratic ideals could only benefit the working class if the potential for corruption did not exist. Its not that the concept is wrong on the contrary its great, but its unimplementable nor sustainable.




posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 06:24 PM
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reply to post by maestromason
 


So what about people that are mentally disabled? The chronic sick? People that did not choose to be in that situation but are left out of anything? Is that their own choice? There are so many people that get into situations not caused by themselves.. Just look at the 44 million people on food stamps, their own choice?



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 06:25 PM
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Originally posted by maestromason
btw...I am a business owner I do not work for anyone but MYSELF, and I work seasonally fro Jan17-April 30th like clock-work like I have been doing for many, many years!


Please don't get me wrong. I have a great deal of respect for people who create wealth such as yourself.

On the other hand, jobs are being out sourced abroad.

Not your business as yet. But if it was, then you would have a very different attitude if you had to compete with a business that paid labour 10% of what you pay yourself.

Then the penny would drop.



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 06:25 PM
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Originally posted by colin42
reply to post by maestromason
 



I do not have any laborers in my family. My mom is an Accountant, My Father is an Engineer, My Brother is a Investment Banker, Uncles are Lawyers, Aunts are Nurses and Psychologist, Grandfather is a Physician(GP), Grandmother(full time wife), My cousins are all professionals either doctors, engineers, nurses, architects, surgeons, Phd's, Collegiate Professors, Masters, business-owners.
So you have a privaliged family. That same family must have nurtured you and the other members. Supported you and gave you the chance of an education. That is socialism at work. Your family have supported and enabled you.

They didnt say once you learned to walk 'now you can stand on your own two feet you have a choice. Hunger, homeless and happiness or work hard and become a layer your on your own.'

It also explains why you believe poverty is a choice.



I have been working and earning a living off of my PASSIONS IN LIFE since the age of 5 making crystal radio sets and repairing televisions YES AT THE AGE OF 5. Opened my first business and INCORPORATED IT AT the age of 18. Money never was a problem for me personally and I never had an allowance for I was making more money before I turned 18 than most non-professional adults. But I was always TAUGHT WORK ETHICS and to DO FOR MYSELF and TO NEVER WAIT ON ANYONE TO DO ANYTHING FOR ME.

I did not say poverty is a choice...so stop with the word-smithing please. If you are that remedial then do not address me for conversation for I will not tolerate plain LAZINESS and your refusal to PROPERLY READ what I typed and to PROPERLY COMPREHEND it....comprende?



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 06:26 PM
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reply to post by maestromason
 
You already cannot tell me you started with nothing. I dont expect you to admit that the advantage of a good education and the support of your family gave you a head start.

I do find it amazing that as a business owner you believe it so easy to create jobs when all the other business owners tell us how hard it is and give this as a reason to lower wages or that they need to outsource the work to remain profitable, thanks and goodbye.



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 06:28 PM
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reply to post by aravoth
 


Well this is how I interpret it.

The worker is the foundation of the product. Without the worker the product would not be made, therefore the worker is just as important as the inventor of the product, and the CEO of the company.

Personally I don't believe that wages should be equal across the board. Some people are "entitled" to a bit more. But a CEO making thousands of times more than the factory worker who probably has done more actual "work" than the CEO has done in his entire life is kind of absurd.

Everyone who works legitimately deserves a fair wage, the safest work atmosphere possible and the ability to retire at a decent age. Not just enough money to feed your kids so they aren't as anemic as last week when you couldn't feed them because you had to make rent, or work equipment that could fail at any moment, or working until you keel over on the line.

Ok you can precede with the flaming...



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 06:30 PM
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Originally posted by colin42
reply to post by aravoth
 
Maybe you should chill.

Show me how I was wrong instead of a silly straw man reply.



You are wrong because families are formed out of voluntary association, not dictated policy for the greater good.

They own their own property, have their own borders, set their own rules independent of everything else, It takes no act of any government to create a family, and no authority figure can dictate the direction of the family.



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 06:32 PM
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Originally posted by maestromason
I have been working and earning a living off of my PASSIONS IN LIFE since the age of 5 making crystal radio sets and repairing televisions YES AT THE AGE OF 5.


Well, you will find that the making of 'crystal radio sets' has been outsourced to China. Do TV preair men stil exist?

My point is that what you did at 5 (?) is no longer an option. Those jobs no longer exist in the US.

You should try making a start these days instead of assuming that nothing has changed much in the last 30 years.

My father - a self employed business man his whole life.

It took many years for him to understand it wasn't the 60s anymore. It is tougher these days, even if you are sure that it isn't.
edit on 2-2-2012 by ollncasino because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 06:33 PM
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reply to post by maestromason
 



Some people like being poor, some people like living simple and day to day.
So if that is not saying poverty is a choice then what is it saying? Dont forget I am remedial.

In fact I agree with you in one thing. What a pointless waste of time it is discussing this with you when you are so busy telling everyone they should all be like you. That's Communism BTW.



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 06:35 PM
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reply to post by interupt42
 


The only country that has had a socialist system was Spain and it worked.


by ANOK
There are NO socialist countries, never has been. Spain, for three years, 1936-1939 is the ONLY country to EVER have practiced real socialism, and it was very successful for those three years. It failed, not because it didn't work, but because the European establishment didn't want it to work. The revolution started after the failed coup by Franco. Germany and Italy sent in military to help Franco gain power. WWII finally ended any revolutionary ideas and the power the working class had was decimated, and never fully recovered.


What happened next was the biggest propaganda campaign ever to be seen. Aimed to destroy socialism. Because socialism is the nightmare of any ruling elite. It means that workers control their environment. It is the end private ownership. The end of wage-slavery. The end of population control.
So they hijacked the socialist identity. The Bolsheviks were financed entirely by Wall street bankers, who continued to finance and supply the Sovjets until way beyond 2ndWW, even made sure they got the bomb.(read the works of Antony C. Sutton, available online) They created this political climate of opposing conflict. By then the world was already convinced that socialism was the most evil thing in the world. And that is how they destroyed socialism and had you convinced that your enemy(capitalism) was your friend and your friend (socialism) was your enemy.


edit on 2-2-2012 by dadgad because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 06:38 PM
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Originally posted by dadgad


I suggest you begin following this topic from this point. You are starting to piss me off. Don't jump into a conversation pretending to know what is being discussed. You're not a child anymore are you?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Tip: read ANOK carefully.
edit on 2-2-2012 by dadgad because: (no reason given)


Don't make the mistake of assuming I care, at all, about your feelings.



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 06:39 PM
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Originally posted by dadgad
What happened next was the biggest propaganda campaign ever to be seen. Aimed to destroy socialism. Because socialism is the nightmare of any ruling elite. It means that workers control their environment.


But socialists don't want to 'control their environment'. They want to sieze capitalists' money and take it for themselves.

Socialism is just a big resource grab.



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 06:41 PM
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Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by aravoth
 


workers should own the means of production because the owners would be nowhere without their workers... if the workers together were the owners, they would be doing a more equal share of work and no one would be making ridiculous percentages of higher profit at their expense,




The workers are the ones that actually create the wealth. Without the workers the private owner wouldn't make a penny. This is why it's stupid when capitalists try to say we could all be like them, if we just worked harder.

The other thing that private ownership does that is detrimental to society is, as I mentioned before, the artificial scarcity of resources. Which creates an artificial scarcity of 'jobs'. We have to have 'jobs' because the ability to fend for ourselves was taken away. It's a catch-22 system. The problem of poverty can never be solved with capitalism, no matter how altruistic it is. Because if a company can not make enough profit, by it's very nature, it will either have to increase prices, lower wages, increase scarcity, reduce competition, or close. All of those effect the community negatively.

The private owners motivation is to make as much money as they can for themselves. It's been proven by history (Spanish revolution, worker organizations) that the workers motivation is to better their communities. There really is a different mindset. I know this from my own experience.


you think that the sheep cannot be their own shepherds? or if there is a shepherd he must deserve ever more then the sheep..


I like that line, very well put.



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 06:42 PM
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reply to post by aravoth
 



You are wrong because families are formed out of voluntary association, not dictated policy for the greater good.
Err so the unborn child volenteered? The mother and father do not set the rules for the good of the family?


They own their own property, have their own borders, set their own rules independent of everything else, It takes no act of any government to create a family, and no authority figure can dictate the direction of the family.
They may or may not own their property. setting their own rules has no bearing neither does government acts. Parents dictate the direction of the family.

I would say you struggled and failed.



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 06:43 PM
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Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by aravoth
 


workers should own the means of production because the owners would be nowhere without their workers... if the workers together were the owners, they would be doing a more equal share of work and no one would be making ridiculous percentages of higher profit at their expense,




The workers are the ones that actually create the wealth. Without the workers the private owner wouldn't make a penny. This is why it's stupid when capitalists try to say we could all be like them, if we just worked harder.

The other thing that private ownership does that is detrimental to society is, as I mentioned before, the artificial scarcity of resources. Which creates an artificial scarcity of 'jobs'. We have to have 'jobs' because the ability to fend for ourselves was taken away. It's a catch-22 system. The problem of poverty can never be solved with capitalism, no matter how altruistic it is. Because if a company can not make enough profit, by it's very nature, it will either have to increase prices, lower wages, increase scarcity, reduce competition, or close. All of those effect the community negatively.

The private owners motivation is to make as much money as they can for themselves. It's been proven by history (Spanish revolution, worker organizations) that the workers motivation is to better their communities. There really is a different mindset. I know this from my own experience.


you think that the sheep cannot be their own shepherds? or if there is a shepherd he must deserve ever more then the sheep..



I like that line, very well put.


Why should I allow my employees to take over my company?



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 06:44 PM
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Originally posted by colin42
reply to post by aravoth
 



You are wrong because families are formed out of voluntary association, not dictated policy for the greater good.
Err so the unborn child volenteered? The mother and father do not set the rules for the good of the family?


They own their own property, have their own borders, set their own rules independent of everything else, It takes no act of any government to create a family, and no authority figure can dictate the direction of the family.
They may or may not own their property. setting their own rules has no bearing neither does government acts. Parents dictate the direction of the family.

I would say you struggled and failed.



Err...The parents volunteerd to make the unborn child...

lol, ok, I concede, you are right, everything is socialist, built for the "greater good" even families......
edit on 2-2-2012 by aravoth because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 06:45 PM
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reply to post by aravoth
 
I thank you and goodnight



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 06:48 PM
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Originally posted by colin42
reply to post by aravoth
 
I thank you and goodnight



You welcome, In fact you've all changed my mind completely. I've been converted...

I bet you have some nice stuff. I bet I could use some of it. I'm going to come and take your stuff because it's nicer than mine. But I want you to keep being productive and working hard, that way I can have more nice stuff at your expense.

You see. I am a lazy, fat, arrogant pile of useless trash. Everyone owes me something. And they especially owe me the the fruits of thier labor. I'm too stupid to figure out how to be productive because the school system I was taught in didn't have the resources to make me smart. That is the fault of greedy people that don't care about fat, lazy, arrogant piles of useless trash like me.

In a short while, the people I voted for will send some other people to your house. And they will take your nice things and bring them to me. Because their are millions of fat, lazy, arrogant piles of trash like me all over the country, and we are a huge voting block.

I am not smart enough, determined enough, or strong enough to make my own life better. But you are smart, determined, and strong enough for the two of us. So I will sit my giant, fat, lazy, arrogant ass on your shoulders, and you will carry my giant, fat, lazy, arrogant ass for the rest of your life.

You get it? You may produce everything, you may be the sole creator of jobs and wealth, you may think you are pretty smart when you invent something groundbreaking that changes the world forever and saves a million lives, but I did one better.............

I stole it all from you......because I am.....a giant, fat, lazy, arrogant ###hole. Now get back to work, you need to buy me a TV so I don't miss dancing with the stars.



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 06:48 PM
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with the wealth of knowledge at this day and age,, in the right environment any and every human can grow to be an integral part of society, should be encouraged to do so, and should understand their benefit of doing so... the current system is a struggle against all citizens, so the society they all create and depend on, can benefit them all.... if all citizens collectively strove to eliminate the struggle and conflict, there would be non... this is the truly fabled golden age. at no time in history has it been more possible then now,, as many problems as their may be now,, we have the most means to solve them... it is a puzzle, there is a solution..



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 06:48 PM
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I am not saying I have any definite idea of how to, just yet; but I think we can do better...and I think we have to.


I've been saying this for years! I don't think any individual can come up with the right system to eliminate suffering in the world, it's a group effort. We need to all get on the same page.

This was well-written and I agree with everything you say. Every man and woman should have the right to earn the things they like, but when it compromises other people's well-being, that's just not right. I'm not a communist but I sure as f*ck ain't a capitalist either, and anyone who can say they are with any sort of pride, are not good people. Capitalism breeds evil whether the philosophy itself is inherently evil or not. Something's gotta change, we can't sustain a dog-eat-dog society for much longer. Growth is a bad thing in this environment.



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