Why my mind is closing towards Capitalism

reply to post by ANOK


You could repeat that socialism is 'the workers ownership of the means of production' a million times and I doubt they'll grasp the concept.

Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by filosophia
Forty million on food stamps (thats socialism not capitalism)

It the result of capitalism. There would no need for food stamps if the workers own the means of production.

and people still going hungry. Africa gets foreign aid (socialism) and it still goes hungry. So when is socialism planning on fixing this, or do they just not care?

Foreign aid is not socialism.

Socialism is the workers ownership and control of the means of production. If those foreign countries were truly socialist they wouldn't need aid from anyone, they could simply produce what they needed.

People go hungry because of the artificial scarcity of resources.

Technological capacity to produce enough to satisfy everyone's needs already exists globally and has done so for many decades. Yet needs continue to remain unmet on a massive scale. Why? Quite simply because scarcity is a functional requirement of capitalism itself.

www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/socialist-standard/1990s/1998/no-1124-april-1998/artificial-scarcity

Could you please explain to me exactly why workers should own the means of production. And what incentive a system like this would ever provide a person who created the system of production to continue to do so.

Originally posted by SuperTripps
i will say it again very clearly and save people loads of pages of reading

the current form of capitalism, which is corporatism or corporateacry or corporate fascism..doenst work in the end

real capital and real free enterprise involves the pursuit of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. AS LONG as YOU DONT hurt anyone. this last part has been totally neglected. in fact the opposite happened...we redefined what hurt means even though now today we have unions and kids that don't work in sweat shops. We exported the problems to china or india or tawain.

We brainwash people with 10s of billions per month in fake marketing and advertising from tv to the web. We convince governments to go along with all of this---to the point where most laws or tax changes are written by the corporations..it has even infected basic things like health plans and health care ... to the point where the FDA knows 3-5K per us citizen a day in Vitamin D is fantastic for overall immunity health, but they won't raise up the recommended IU which is currently a PATHETHIC 400-600 IU. 1000% too low. That is like the government telling you to sell Apple stock at 100 right before it blasted to 400.

why is this happening? because billions of dollars a month are made on OTHER vitamins, cold remedies, cough drops,flu medicine, allergy medications, anti biotics, anti virals, tissue paper! and this is just one of 100s of things i have found where outright LYING, Deception, Fraud..is being THROWN onto the American People

wake up folks, please...one you do there is no going back. the infection of lies and deceit is in every industry conspiring against you more than you realize. and this is not real capitalism. real capitalism would have people on TV nightly Screaming about the facts in all of these industries until real change and outrage occurred.

but alas, who controls the media and the programming going on and who are they aligned with. you already know

Get it straight. There is no form of capitalism that works in the way you want it to work, meaning evenly distributed wealth - impossible. Corporatism is capitalism. Just another tool of the Capitalist.

real capital and real free enterprise involves the pursuit of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. AS LONG as YOU DONT hurt anyone.

This is just slanted rhetoric with no significance or meaning at all. It's just opium for the mind. Poetry rather.

Capitalism with a human face is a poetic dream that has it's foundation in fantasy only and holds no connection to reality or logic. The lefter side of the right in current politics are still clinging on to this idea. They still hope that one day through some miracle, Capitalism will develop a human face. Not a chance.

It appears that Adam Smith believed that it was good moral character for successful, wealthy men to give charitably to society, and we see that today with charitable organizations. There is nothing to say that he believed that it was moral for the State to Confiscate the fruits of a mans righteous labor and give it others arbitrarily. There is a difference and too bad socialist neophytes cannot distinguish between the two.

Originally posted by dadgad


Get it straight. There is no form of capitalism that works in the way you want it to work, meaning evenly distributed wealth - impossible. Corporatism is capitalism. Just another tool of the Capitalist.
.

Get it straight. There is no form of socialism that works in the way you want it to work, meaning evenly distributed wealth - impossible. Despotism is socialism. Just another tool of the Socialist.

Fixed it for ya...

Originally posted by SuperTripps
reply to post by maestromason

 

for WHOM does the Grail serve?

its fine to pontificate and dream about becoming rich, creating jobs, etc

but you are an absolute liar if you don't see who corporations are using slave labor overseas at 2 bucks a day...terrible working conditions, to make it possible. usually for stuff that can be made here...and create jobs her if ONLY the corporations would accept less profit margin

but they can't...the LEGAL mandate of a corporation is to maximize profit for shareholders

PERIOD

and that is the ultimate end game here.. you used to have to petition the state for a corporate charter ...and proof you were doing something for social welfare to get that limited liability.

today..any moron can set up a LLC. the whole point being LIMITED liability..or LIMITED responsibility

and hence..we lost our way again...and profit seeking meant a return to the evil aspects of greed at all costs.

again, who does the grail serve nowadays with so many things stacked up against a normal person or small business?

I run INCORPORATED FIRMS (C Corps), so get your classification correct when addressing MY BUSINESSES.

Now on to your rant...

I can't help you if you are unhappy. That is one thing that the Forefathers of my country knew that they could not supply but could offer the OPPORTUNITY TO PURSUE so you might want to look into that mirror tonight and do some deep soul searching and exclude me out of it for I AM HAPPY.

Do not fault others for your misfortune and misery GET UP and MOVE SOMETHING...SOME IDEAS, SOME STOCKS, SOME BONDS, SOME CASH, SOME WORK, A BROOM... YOUR ASS...BUT THE KEY IS TO MOVE SOMETHING AND TO KEEP IT MOVING!

Originally posted by ANOK
But I take it back, he could be the farther of economics, but you failed to reply to rest of my post. He wasn't a capitalist.

"Law and governments may be considered in this and indeed in every case as a combination of the rich to oppress the poor and preserve to themselves the inequality of the goods which would otherwise soon be destroyed by the attacks of the poor, who if not hindered by the government would soon reduce the others to an equality with themselves by open violence." Adam Smith

Thanks for that quote.

That is interesting.

Smith clearly understood power.

Yet, you don't have to be a socialist to understand that the rich have the system stitched up.

The question is, how do we make a 'better' or 'fairer' economic system work?

With respect, you have suggested the re-introduction of economic reforms (Spain before WWII) that led to so much armed resistance that they failed.

Not a success by any measure.

The Soviet Union aided the socialists but they still lost.

reply to post by maestromason

I do not have any laborers in my family. My mom is an Accountant, My Father is an Engineer, My Brother is a Investment Banker, Uncles are Lawyers, Aunts are Nurses and Psychologist, Grandfather is a Physician(GP), Grandmother(full time wife), My cousins are all professionals either doctors, engineers, nurses, architects, surgeons, Phd's, Collegiate Professors, Masters, business-owners.

So you have a privaliged family. That same family must have nurtured you and the other members. Supported you and gave you the chance of an education. That is socialism at work. Your family have supported and enabled you.

They didnt say once you learned to walk 'now you can stand on your own two feet you have a choice. Hunger, homeless and happiness or work hard and become a layer your on your own.'

It also explains why you believe poverty is a choice.

Originally posted by colin42
reply to post by maestromason

 

I do not have any laborers in my family. My mom is an Accountant, My Father is an Engineer, My Brother is a Investment Banker, Uncles are Lawyers, Aunts are Nurses and Psychologist, Grandfather is a Physician(GP), Grandmother(full time wife), My cousins are all professionals either doctors, engineers, nurses, architects, surgeons, Phd's, Collegiate Professors, Masters, business-owners.

So you have a privaliged family. That same family must have nurtured you and the other members. Supported you and gave you the chance of an education. That is socialism at work. Your family have supported and enabled you.

They didnt say once you learned to walk 'now you can stand on your own two feet you have a choice. Hunger, homeless and happiness or work hard and become a layer your on your own.'

It also explains why you believe poverty is a choice.

Wait, what? Families are socialistic entities now?

Jesus....

Everything is socialist..... even McDonalds.... look at all those people working together to make french fries... socialism at work.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
It appears that Adam Smith believed that it was good moral character for successful, wealthy men to give charitably to society, and we see that today with charitable organizations. There is nothing to say that he believed that it was moral for the State to Confiscate the fruits of a mans righteous labor and give it others arbitrarily. There is a difference and too bad socialist neophytes cannot distinguish between the two.

But socialist neophytes cannot distinguish between the two. Its just another resource grab.

Socialists, while maintaining they want a fairer system, are not slow at feathering their own nest at the expense of the masses. History has proven that.

At least capitalists admit they are out for themselves.

Socialists on the other hand steal the money while having the cheek to teach the poor that they are doing them a favor!

Originally posted by filosophia
reply to post by ANOK

 

I think your a bit confused, if you can produce what you need that is capitalism. We dont live in true capitalism so its wrong to blame capitalism for social problems.

No. Capitalism is the private ownership of production means. The workers are in essence wage-slaves.

You have been propagandized with the rhetoric of self-reliance, self-sustainability. Doesn't exist in a capitalist society, probably cannot exist anywhere because we are forced to cooperate. It doesn't exist in a capitalist society because you are going to need others to help you. Who runs the show? The workers? No. The owner, who owns private ownership of everything that happens. Your workers are your wage-slaves.

reply to post by aravoth


It did in Spain. Try to remain on target.

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by maestromason
Capitalism works just fine. The only people who have any complaints about it are the non-ambitious. People who do not have a drive to succeed in life.

But if the jobs are not there, it doesn't matter how ambitious you are.

The jobs have gone to China and India. Maybe not your job. Not yet...

If the jobs are not there CREATE THEM!

Get out of the worker-bee/rat race mentality and get off your posterior and CREATE AND PRODUCE FOR YOURSELF AND STOP WAITING FOR SOMEONE ELSE'S COMPANY TO OPEN UP AND "GIVE" YOU A JOB.

that in itself is pathetic as h3ll!

btw...I am a business owner I do not work for anyone but MYSELF, and I work seasonally fro Jan17-April 30th like clock-work like I have been doing for many, many years!

reply to post by aravoth


workers should own the means of production because the owners would be nowhere without their workers... if the workers together were the owners, they would be doing a more equal share of work and no one would be making ridiculous percentages of higher profit at their expense,

you think that the sheep cannot be their own shepherds? or if there is a shepherd he must deserve ever more then the sheep..

Originally posted by dadgad
reply to post by aravoth

 

It did in Spain. Try to remain on target.

Spain has an unemployment rate of 22.8%, what exactly worked in Spain again?

reply to post by aravoth
Maybe you should chill.

Show me how I was wrong instead of a silly straw man reply.

Originally posted by maestromason
I do not have any laborers in my family. My mom is an Accountant, My Father is an Engineer, My Brother is a Investment Banker, Uncles are Lawyers, Aunts are Nurses and Psychologist, Grandfather is a Physician(GP), Grandmother(full time wife), My cousins are all professionals either doctors, engineers, nurses, architects, surgeons, Phd's, Collegiate Professors, Masters, business-owners.

I wonder if you would be as successful if your father was a refuse collector and your mom a cleaner?

Originally posted by maestromason
If the jobs are not there CREATE THEM!

Get out of the worker-bee/rat race mentality and get off your posterior and CREATE AND PRODUCE FOR YOURSELF AND STOP WAITING FOR SOMEONE ELSE'S COMPANY TO OPEN UP AND "GIVE" YOU A JOB.

that in itself is pathetic as h3ll!

Create the jobs?

And where, pray be, did the capital for your business come from?

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by aravoth

 

workers should own the means of production because the owners would be nowhere without their workers... if the workers together were the owners, they would be doing a more equal share of work and no one would be making ridiculous percentages of higher profit at their expense,

you think that the sheep cannot be their own shepherds? or if there is a shepherd he must deserve ever more then the sheep..

So let me give you an example..

I own a machine shop, I have 26 employees, we make tools, parts for certain vehicles and things like that etc..

I built the business, I bought the machines, I own the building. Literally, everything in that shop is mine. Even the custom parts I make are ones that I alone designed and tested.

So you believe that my employees should just "take it"? For what reason exactly? Because they work for me they own my company?

Originally posted by aravoth

Originally posted by dadgad
reply to post by aravoth

 

It did in Spain. Try to remain on target.

Spain has an unemployment rate of 22.8%, what exactly worked in Spain again?

I suggest you begin following this topic from this point. You are starting to piss me off. Don't jump into a conversation pretending to know what is being discussed. You're not a child anymore are you?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Tip: read ANOK carefully.