Why my mind is closing towards Capitalism

reply to post by petrus4


I only read your post so far, but wanted to chime in. I am of the belief that pure Capitalism can work, but it should only be based around those goods or services which are not essential to human life and enjoyment of that life. There should be some limits placed on wealth generation where it concerns goods or services that are needed for human functioning. Housing, food, transportation, healthcare, water, electricity, access to legal services, are some of those areas which as a modern society we should demand nobody is allowed to get filthy rich from. Nor should the tax payers have to fund these entire operations as in a socialistic system.

At least in America we have recognized the benefit of publicly owned utilities that operate as not for profit. Keeping water treatment publicly available, etc. Unfortunately, our banks have seized these operations and refused to fund them when they are in hard times. In seizing these utility companies the banks have created a monopoly, albeit indirectly, where they are the sole beneficiary of increased utility prices. This should not be the case.

I would advocate for a system which is part socialistic, and part capitalistic. Socialistic on the lower basic needs end of the spectrum and Capitalist where it comes to goods and services which are not considered needed to live a life comfortably. We have too much potential as a planet and species to stomp on the next person so that we can get ahead personally. I am of the belief that both systems can work if properly designed and merged together.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
reply to post by petrus4

 

I am not saying it is ok for there being people going hungry, but in socialism/communism the MAJORITY goes hungry and are poor.

What are you basing that claim on?

During the Spanish revolution production increased as much as 50% in some areas.

Production greatly increased. Technicians and agronomists helped the peasants to make better use of the land. Scientific methods were introduced and in some areas yields increased by as much as 50%. Food was handed over to the supply committees who looked after distribution in the urban areas.

libcom.org...

And that was done during a civil war with Hitler dropping bombs on them.

As I have said, and proved several times the reason why there is so much poverty and suffering in countries like the Republic of the United States is because Americans allowed "progressives/leftwingers" to implement their ideas.

Rubbish. Capitalists simply refuse to accept lower profits and a more fair system of wealth distribution.
Greedy capitalists are now exploiting other workers in countries they have less restriction in. Where they use child labour and pay workers extremely low wages for long work hours in bad conditions. The cycle of capitalist exploitation.

Whoever controls the economy of a nation, controls that nation, and leftwingers/progressive democrats gave power over the economy of the Republic of the United States to the rich bankers and they created a central bank.

There are no left wingers in government, only different degrees of right wing. Capitalists control the economy.
It's ridiculous to blame the left.

Central banks, and centralization/consolidaiton of power is part of socialism and communism.

No it isn't. Socialism puts the power into the hands of the workers to control their own destiny. It takes the control away from the minority capitalists who exploit the majority.

In communism the 5th plank out of 10 is the creation of a central bank.

Marx was just one way of implementing state-socialism. I don't agree with it all, and neither do a lot of socialists.
Anyway that was only supposed to be a temporary arrangement, in order to for production to increase to the point that money became irrelevant, and goods could be free distributed, a stepping stone to communism.

In socialism/communism cooperative enterprises/corporations are allowed to control the nation.

It is because of socialist/communist ideas that the Republic of the United States, and in fact the world is in so much s#it.

There are no corporations in socialism. Corporations and the state working together to control is fascism.

The world is in such crap is because capitalism creates artificial scarcity. It has nothing to do with socialism, other than workers rightly demanding better pay and conditions.

Are you another poster who wants to go back to having child labour, low wages, long hours, dangerous working conditions?

If you base your opinion on so called communist countries you will be lost from the beginning.

reply to post by MajorKarma


Ah yes, the hypocritical hero Ayn Rand, who declared that everyone should stand on their own two feet and NEVER accept help from anyone.....right up until she was old and poor and had to get on Social Security until she died.

This is the problem, the capitalists and their heroes are all liars, as you can see throughout this thread. Hey Skyfloating, instead of a picture of Pyongyang, how about a picture of Oslo? You have heard of Norway, right? It is a beautiful country...and the most taxed in the world.



OMG ITS A NIGHTMARE, QUICK BOMB THEM!!!!

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by Paschar0
What if your worker is inclined to agree to $1 an hour. .

Thats called free will / self-responsibility. A notion many socialist academics try to debunk.

Yes, well if you are starving, you will accept one dollar an hour if thats all anyone is going to pay an engineer in your city.

If all the capitalists get together and try to keep wages down, they will, by refusing to pay more, no matter what.....after all, they have enough money to live. They dont need more.....but their employees do. I have experienced and witnessed this countless times in my own life.

And this happens every day in America, business owners SCREWING their employees in every way possible...and Skyfloating is helping to make it happen.

I would be on board with capitalism, if I hadnt watched it turn men into greedy crack monsters that destroy everyone and everything around them. The fact that you look around, and actually deny that what got us here to this point was capitalism, then scream about how many "socialists" have killed makes it obvious you are nothing more than a propaganda mouthpiece.

Originally posted by Transilience
True socialism and communism is supposed to be completely egalitarian, where private property is abandoned in favor of collective property.

Thats a recipe for disaster because it strips away any form of merit, creative competition or rank. If I built a boat and you didnt, you'd like "the community" to own the boat whether they contributed to building it or not.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs (Karl Marx himself)".

In other words, taking from those who produce and giving to those who dont produce, without them having to earn or achieve it.

the regime in North Korea has nothing to do with true communism or socialism (there's a big difference between those two as well).

Really now? Do you also think the Soviet Union, Stalin, Pol Pot, Venezuela, Cuba have nothing whatsoever to do with Socialism or Communism?

I'm as of yet still in favor of a Resource-based Economy described by Jacque Fresco and backed by the Zeitgeist Movement which would be closer to an anarcho-communist society

The Zeitgeist movement is Communism redressed. Collectivism is redressed every few hundred years, always appearing under a different name. Thats why hardly any historian would ever be a Communist.

Us capitalists want a world of "live and let live", where diversity is valued and socialists quit imposing their totalitarian philosophies on society. A free world.

When a socialist is unhappy, he wants to change the world. When a capitalist is happy, he wants to change himself.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

True. I havent seen a single immigrant from a socialist or quasi-socialist country who does not embrace capitalism.

OMG what a shock...an immigrant that intentionally comes to the most evil, ruthless capitalist place on the planet doesnt like socialism?

Maybe its just that America's economic theories attract the people with the most sociopathic economic theories. A match made in Hell.

Petrus you are my comrade.

Let me tell you how I feel about this disgusting phenomena called Capitalism.

The rant:

Capitalism is such an ugly ideology. I truly hate everything about it. It creates such incredible illusions that just permeate so deeply into our every day lives, it's beyond believe. These bastards have convinced people that free-markets and freedom are the same thing and the first guarantees the other. What preposterous rubbish! The opposite is true. The more free a market is the more capitalist terror you will see happening. Why have workers throughout our history risen against capitalist terror? Because Capitalism does not care about anything and anybody, let alone the welfare of a nation and it's people. In this system called market competition the workers, the people always get the boot in their face. Why else do they transport their industry to third world nations leaving their homeland bereft of labor, because they still own the resources, that in effect remain unused. Because they have one interest only and that is to maximize profits at the cheapest means possible. They exploit weaker nations and turned the inhabitants into virtual slaves. This is such a monstrosity beyond common reason. The arms industry profits from war, so they make sure there is war. The bankers profit from war, so they make sure there is war. They will reap and destroy this planet until every inch is in private hands, until everything around you is the property of some tyrannical corporation on the other side of the world. What right to they possess for private property in the first place? Who lets these people own the world?

Communism:
Communism really was nothing but a Capitalist creation, or at least manipulated by Capitalist interests. The Bolsheviks were financed by Wall street bankers, who continued to fund and supply the Sovjets until way beyond the 2nd WW. They even made sure they got the bomb! They used Communism to their advantage to create this political climate of opposing conflict, so that they could create these proxy-wars and finance both sides of them. If you don't believe me I suggest reading the works of Antony C. Sutton, a scholar who nobody has been able to debunk, because his sources were water-tight. Instead of receiving a Nobel Prize, they kept his work out of the book-shelves. But you can download his books for free. The copyrights have been released.

Originally posted by AwakeinNM

Originally posted by UdonNiedtuno

Originally posted by AwakeinNM

Originally posted by fuchow
Hey op, and everyone.
I think that you`d like the book "23 things they don't tell you about capitalism". I ran into it today, and saw your thread by chance. look it up in youtube, i think there's an audio version.

and yeah, too much sweet talk and "free market will fix it" on the internets nowadays.

You can spin anything in your favor if you're a good enough BS artist.

Not buying it.

Is this ironic to anyone else?

I'm guessing you're a socialist from the typical "I know you are but what am I?" response.

I was referring to your beer chart. In my opinion, your characterization of "simplified" is grossly inadequate, and to which "BS artist" and "spin" is probably most applicable, which is why I found your comment ironic.

To offer some substance, I firmly believe that humans, when given the chance, are intelligent enough to realize that working together is exponentially more productive than warring. However, society and culture is corrupted to the point that even the intelligent among us truly believe that it is our inescapable nature to fight to the death over "limited resources". I fear that we are trapped in this paradox and barring some major, catastrophic natural event to snap us out of it, we will create our own major, catastrophic event. I also believe that this cycle will continue until humans have made their own planet uninhabitable or, hopefully, enough people wake up to pull the species out of the death spiral. Also, to clarify the position, I believe that identifying a common goal is possible, that working towards a common goal is possible and that a system that functions this way will far outperform a system in which everyone is competing against everyone else so that they themselves can "get ahead". (if this is 'socialism', then yea, I suppose I am 'socialist').

Alternatively, some cosmic intervention may come along and make it uninhabitable for us, rendering the discussion moot!

cheers

Originally posted by aching_knuckles
Hey Skyfloating, instead of a picture of Pyongyang, how about a picture of Oslo? You have heard of Norway, right? It is a beautiful country...and the most taxed in the world.

The Norway card again (and second time in this thread!). Norway finances itself by having only a few Million inhabitats while producing Billions of Barrels of oil each year. Its pretty easy to run a social-democrat state (Norway is not socialist) in those conditions.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by theubermensch

Imperialism Pyonyang's problem.

This blaming socialists economical problems on others only increases a socialists problems. Thats what is flawed about socialism from the onset: Playing on Blame instead of playing the Game.

North Korea is not socialist. You need to check your definitions. It's more of a nationalist dictatorship. Their poverty is due to other countries interfering with them...

A revolution derailed. Korea’s history helps greatly in understanding what’s going on today. The Japanese empire occupied Korea from 1910 until its World War II defeat in 1945. While partially industrializing the country, Japan looted its natural resources, undermined its ancient culture, and brutally repressed popular uprisings...

Behind the US demonization of North Korea

Japan, the US, and Russia is why Korea is the way it is, blaming it on socialism is just propaganda. Do you blame them for being isolationist after all that? Isolationism is why they are demonized, they refuse to be part of the global capitalist system. They are poor because of a lack of resources and lousy government.

Do the workers there own the means of production?

But regardless if they are it doesn't mean it has to be that way. Socialism is what we make it, just like any economic system.

This is capitalism in China...

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by aching_knuckles
Hey Skyfloating, instead of a picture of Pyongyang, how about a picture of Oslo? You have heard of Norway, right? It is a beautiful country...and the most taxed in the world.

The Norway card again (and second time in this thread!). Norway finances itself by having only a few Million inhabitats while producing Billions of Barrels of oil each year. Its pretty easy to run a social-democrat state (Norway is not socialist) in those conditions.

Oh, I see, then this is "an exception" and not to be counted. What, why arent they socialist?? They are the most heavily taxed, and have the most services provided by govt than other country...so if Norway is not Socialist who is? Only the "bad guys" like North Korea that you can easily make straw men with?

Allright, how about Finland then? Would you consider Germany socialist? They have many socialist policies....

Free-market Capitalism is the only way for me personally. I was born into a system that ensures prosperity for those who WORK SMART for it. The top is a lonely place to be but it is the only place for me.



once you get over the Rat Race mentality....



then you have cleared the only hurdle to the top.

Originally posted by ANOK
Their poverty is due to other countries interfering with them...

The last shift of thread-posters also blamed NKs problems on others (including U.S. Capitalists). NK has itself to blame because it has been instituting socialist central planning since decades.

Communists need to stop blaming others for their problems. As I said before, a capitalist has a problem and blames himself, a socialist has a problem and blames others.

Do the workers there own the means of production?

The NK means of production are owned collectively.

This is capitalism in China...

China is still Communist, even if it is now implementing a few capitalistic ideas (it had to, otherwise you'd be seeing many more starving children there).

Capitalism can probably works as long as the playing field is kept level and competition is encouraged, not stifled. Let's consider the game of Monopoly. Imagine if the game allowed the person with the most money to change the rules at will. Create additional money out of thin air. Roll again on a bad roll. Get out of jail whenever. Never have to pay taxes or any of the other charges that come up during the game. They'll quickly get all the property and money and then ---- Game Over. Guess what, it's Game Over. The WealthyElite have steadily accumulated most of the wealth and are now sparring over the very last crumbs.

Originally posted by aching_knuckles
Oh, I see, then this is "an exception" and not to be counted.

Norway has about 5 Million people while exporting about 50 Billion barrels of oil a year. This has made it one of the wealthiest nations on earth. Their good state has nothing at all to do with socialism.

Im sorry if the facts dont agree with your communist propaganda.

I wish people would stop bringing up so called socialist countries.

There are NO socialist countries, never has been. Spain, for three years, 1936-1939 is the ONLY country to EVER have practiced real socialism, and it was very successful for those three years. It failed, not because it didn't work, but because the European establishment didn't want it to work.

The revolution started after the failed coup by Franco. Germany and Italy sent in military to help Franco gain power.
WWII finally ended any revolutionary ideas and the power the working class had was decimated, and never fully recovered.

Originally posted by jtma508
Capitalism can probably works as long as the playing field is kept level and competition is encouraged, not stifled. Let's consider the game of Monopoly. Imagine if the game allowed the person with the most money to change the rules at will. Create additional money out of thin air. Roll again on a bad roll. Get out of jail whenever. Never have to pay taxes or any of the other charges that come up during the game. They'll quickly get all the property and money and then ---- Game Over. Guess what, it's Game Over. The WealthyElite have steadily accumulated most of the wealth and are now sparring over the very last crumbs.

Exactly, and the people arguing that this way of playing is fine have one or two houses on Baltic or Oriental and hope that they can one day be like "The Gamemaster", so they argue SO HARD to make that happen, never realizing they are just next in line to be victimized when they roll the dice and land on Park Place.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by aching_knuckles
Oh, I see, then this is "an exception" and not to be counted.

Norway has about 5 Million people while exporting about 50 Billion barrels of oil a year. This has made it one of the wealthiest nations on earth. Their good state has nothing at all to do with socialism.

Im sorry if the facts dont agree with your communist propaganda.

edit on 2-2-2012 by Skyfloating because: (no reason given)

I see, so socialist states are not allowed to have natural resources or sell them, or else they arent socialist anymore....or I guess thats where the capitalism comes in, to liberate those resources, eh?

What about the other countries I asked about? Give me some more of your "facts".

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by biggmoneyme
i have come to see how primitive capitalism really is recently.

I always thought it was interesting to look at the resulting architecture of various ideologies. Fascists usually have grandiose megalomaniac architecture while socialists the extreme opposite, uniformly bleak architecture. You can learn a lot about the mentality of socialists by looking at their buildings. When the iron curtain fell people were shocked to see endless expanses of utopian socialist housing.

Ive shown Pyonyang in this thread, now introducing socialist city planning in Novosibirsk (formerly Soviet Union)...

You have to wonder why socialists keep using the word "primitive" to describe us. Psychological Projection?

edit on 2-2-2012 by Skyfloating because: (no reason given)

You are pretty rude
.
All the pretty pictures make your point so much stronger

What do all of your pictures prove? That capitalists are magalomaniac fascists?

Originally posted by Skyfloating

The last shift of thread-posters also blamed NKs problems on others (including U.S. Capitalists). NK has itself to blame because it has been instituting socialist central planning since decades.

You call it socialism, but that is not what it was.

Communists need to stop blaming others for their problems. As I said before, a capitalist has a problem and blames himself, a socialist has a problem and blames others.

It's not blaming it on others, it is seeing the capitalist system for what it is. People became communists because of the capitalist system.

Capitalists don't blame others? Are you kidding me? They blame everything on everyone else, how many times do you see welfare recipients being blamed? Or accusing people of being lazy? You blame socialism for NK's problems! You blame everything on the left, or on socialism.

The NK means of production are owned collectively.

By Whom? Not the workers. It's mostly government and private ownership, that is not socialism or communism.

China is still Communist, even if it is now implementing a few capitalistic ideas (it had to, otherwise you'd be seeing many more starving children there).

No it isn't, it never has been. They have either private ownership, capitalism, or government ownership, nationalism. The workers do not own the means of production.

Sorry but you are simply using these terms as defined by propaganda, not the true original definitions.