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University Defends Crackdown on Religious Groups

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posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 07:24 AM
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reply to post by blupblup
 


Great response. I wish I had your talent for avoiding the snarky in these situations, but it's really hard. I'm sure my point would be better-received if I got rid of some of the snark.


Point is, there are people who are being discriminated against and it's their option to fight it, however they see fit, within the law. Yes, there is going to be some pushing of the envelope - challenging the status quo - expanding comfort zone. But that's how we grow.

I'm a strong proponent of equal treatment under the law (or school policy) and I support them.

.
edit on 2/2/2012 by Benevolent Heretic because: (no reason given)




posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 07:39 AM
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reply to post by blupblup
 


Yes, lets straight up compare this to the civil rights movement. Look I can see how gay marriage is a rights issues and don't believe that the church has the authority to say that two or three consenting adults can't be married. However, this is a different issue entirely. This is about a religious group that believes that gay people are sinners and doomed to hell for all eternity.

Yes while it is a bigotry, and backwards they have the religious freedom to believe so. They shouldn't have to be forced to accept a member that is openly gay just because he want in?

Its a contradiction to their beliefs and I bet its a contradiction to his beliefs. If he is Christian, then he should join or find a Christian Church that accepts Gay people openly and lovingly and there are Churches that do. Instead of trying to force himself into one that doesn't believe in his lifestyle.

Honestly, were talking about freedom in this thread. Why does his freedoms override theirs?
edit on 2/2/2012 by Mcupobob because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 07:40 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by blupblup
 


Great response. I wish I had your talent for avoiding the snarky in these situations, but it's really hard. I'm sure my point would be better-received if I got rid of some of the snark.





I'm not sure it's a talent
And quite often I'm snarky... and sarcastic and rude and mean and antagonistic and bullish.

It just depends what the situation requires




posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 07:49 AM
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The group had University recognition and funding, it was their written rules that have gotten them in a jam. The person was not denied membership, they were denied a leadership position and asked to resign. By receiving university and funding, they are not a private group, so need to adhere to University regulations.

So we have a choice, abide by the rules, or lose your funding and recognition. I personally do not see a problem with this, it is pretty cut and dried, the fraternity violated someone else's rights. As on another thread, the constitution only applies when the right wants to get their message out.



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 07:49 AM
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Originally posted by Mcupobob
reply to post by blupblup
 


Yes, lets straight up compare this to the civil rights movement.



Oh good I'm glad you agree, I thought it may come across as a little too much.







Look I can see how gay marriage is a rights issues and don't believe that the church has the authority to say that two or three consenting adults can't be married.



I didn't think we were talking about gay marriage...Did this guy propose to one (or two) of the group or what?




However, this is a different issue entirely. This is about a religious group that does not believe that gay people are sinners and doomed to hell for all eternity.



See I thought they did believe that?

Hmmmm




Yes while it is a bigotry, and backwards they have the religious freedom to believe so. They shouldn't have to be forced to accept a member that is openly gay just because he want in?




If this were their own separate group that they started away from the School/Uni then fine... but It's not about their religious freedoms, it's about Uni Policy.

Their "Religious Freedoms" do NOT trump school policy.





Its a contradiction to their beliefs and I bet its a contradiction to his beliefs. If he is Christian, then he should join or find a Christian Church that accepts Gay people openly and lovingly and there are Churches that do. Instead of trying to force himself into one that doesn't believe in his lifestyle.




Why? He is perfectly entitled to join this one, the school said so

As for it being a contradiction to anyone's belief, I'm pretty sure that God forgives all... so I'm also pretty sure that if there is a god and that homosexuality is a "sin" (I know huge ask believing all that) then I'm sure god will forgive this young man and will be annoyed at these people for barring him from their group.

It's not the Christian way to bully and exclude someone based on prejudice.... or at least it shouldn't be.




Honestly, were talking about freedom in this thread. Why does his freedoms override theirs?



It doesn't.. and neither does theirs override his.

School Policy takes Precedence.

Cheers


edit on 2/2/12 by blupblup because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 07:53 AM
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Originally posted by Mcupobob
Honestly, were talking about freedom in this thread. Why does his freedoms override theirs?


His freedom doesn't override theirs. They have no freedom to discriminate. This is a school group. It is registered with the school and receives funding from the school.

The school has rules about their groups. If this Christian group doesn't want to obey the rules, they can give up their school-sanctioning and operate as a free entity with their OWN rules. But as long as the school is supporting them, they must go by the school's rules.

This seems elementary.



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 08:08 AM
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Originally posted by Mcupobob
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 


I highly doubt that he was Christian, and even if he was he had to know that the majority of Christian groups and Churches are bigotry against homosexuals? I'm not saying it right that they were discriminating, what I'm saying is why force try to force yourself into a group that clearly doesn't want you there?


You can't fight bigotry by burying your head in the sand.



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 08:23 AM
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Originally posted by blupblup
reply to post by blupblup
 


Oh good I'm glad you agree, I thought it may come across as a little too much.




Sigh* Glad you see my point about reaching for the top shelf.


I didn't think we were talking about gay marriage...Did this guy propose to one (or two) of the group or what?


I was making it point. Like I said earlier there are some things to make a stink about.



See I thought they did believe that?

Hmmmm


Alright you caught a typo I fixed it in a edit



If this were their own separate group that they started away from the School/Uni then fine... but It's not about their religious freedoms, it's about Uni Policy.

Their "Religious Freedoms" do NOT trump school policy.


So the school is allowed to discriminated and bar freedoms?



Why? He is perfectly entitled to join this one, the school said so


His entitled because the school said so?


As for it being a contradiction to anyone's belief, I'm pretty sure that God forgives all... so I'm also pretty sure that if there is a god and that homosexuality is a "sin" (I know huge ask believing all that) then I'm sure god will forgive this young man and will be annoyed at these people for barring him from their group.


I don't personally believe in god, so that doesn't make it here or there it about what this people believe and the way they believe in god.


It's not the Christian way to bully and exclude someone based on prejudice.... or at least it shouldn't be.


So the guy has the right to bully his way into the group? Yes and I know that it shouldn't be the Christian way, and something something god forgives all. However religion is a made up thing with made up rules. If a member doesn't want to follow that groups rules then they should reserve the right to kick them out.


School Policy takes Precedence.


So its not about right or wrong its about school Policy now? I thought private insinuations were not allowed to discriminate, based on color, sexuality, or creed?

Let me put it this way, I see this as the the kid that wants to join a stupid clique at school. They don't want him nor like him so he runs to the teacher and forces the cool kids to play with him.



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 08:31 AM
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Originally posted by Mcupobob
So the school is allowed to discriminated and bar freedoms?


How is the school discriminating? They are treating all groups equally.
What freedom is the school barring? The freedom to discriminate? There is no such freedom.


His entitled because the school said so?


Yes. It's their group, they make the rules. The rule is "no discrimination".



If a member doesn't want to follow that groups rules then they should reserve the right to kick them out.


He wasn't breaking any rules. He was accepted as a member and then they kicked him out. What rule did he break?



I thought private insinuations were not allowed to discriminate...


Oh, Lord.... I'll never get that 15 minutes back.

Have a nice day, Bob.



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 08:48 AM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 


How are all groups being treated fairly? The group is being forced to accepted a member that doesn't follower their religious beliefs. Or be dismantled, who wins then?



Oh, Lord.... I'll never get that 15 minutes back.

Have a nice day, Bob.


Same here.



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 08:58 AM
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reply to post by Mcupobob
 



Originally posted by Mcupobob
How are all groups being treated fairly?


They are all required to follow the rules of the school.



The group is being forced to accepted a member that doesn't follower their religious beliefs. Or be dismantled, who wins then?


They are not forced to dismantle. They are free to have their group. They just won't get school funding or be allowed to use the school name in advertizing, etc. I don't know how I can be any more clear.



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 08:59 AM
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Originally posted by Mcupobob


How are all groups being treated fairly? The group is being forced to accepted a member that doesn't follower their religious beliefs. Or be dismantled, who wins then?


Same here.


They aren't being told they have to disband, if they want to continue to use Vanderbilt's name, receive funding by Vanderbilt, and privelages of a registered student organization, they must comply with Vanderbilts non-discrimination policy.

If they don't want to comply with the Universities Policies, there is nothing stating they would be prevented from continuing as a student organization provided they fund themselves, remove Vanderbilts name from their organization title, and give up their registration.

But if they feel very strongly that they want to remain in control of who is allowed to join their organization. that is an avenue they can pursue.

Since this is University policy for all student organizations, they should be well aware of the policy and should not be using their "Religious beliefs" to try to get around the policy, that is abuse
edit on 2/2/12 by Pixiefyre because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 09:04 AM
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reply to post by Pixiefyre
 


I can concede to that point. I guess I took a stand on the issue and didn't want to back down.



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 09:11 AM
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reply to post by blupblup
 


Or, maybe other students who are not identified with these cultural/ethnic/racial organizations recognized by Vanderbilt U., should test the integrity of university administration by attempting to join them, en masse.


African Student Union
Alliance for Cultural Diversity in Research
Asian American Student Association
Asian Pacific American Law Student Association
Black Law Student Association
Black Student Alliance
Caribbean Students Association
Intergenerational Symposium
International Arbritration Association
International Association of Business Communicators (IABC)
International Law Society
Japanese Cultural Foundation
Korean Student and Scholars Association
Korean Undergraduate Student Association
La Alianza at the Law School
Latin Business Association
Masala South Asian Cultural Exchange
Middle Eastern Students Association (MESA)
National Black Law Student Association (undergrad)
National Black MBA Association
National Security Law Society
National Society of Black Engineers
Native American Law Student Association
Organization of Black Graduate and Professional Students (OBGAPS)
Owen Black Students Association
Peabody Coalition of Black Graduates
Saudi Students Association
Turkish Student Association
Vanderbilt Association of Hispanic Students
Vanderbilt Chinese Scholars and Students Association
Vanderbilt Global Perspectives

www.vanderbilt.edu...

My opinion is each of these groups has the right to exclude people who do not share the fundamental beliefs and tenets of the organization. If not, what is the purpose of the organization? That's not discriminatory or exclusionary, it's just common sense. If the university wants to control situations like this, they should not recognize or support any student organization.

Secondly, the students who are complaining about the university action should make their voices known with their tuition dollars. What is truly more important to you? A Vanderbilt diploma or your morals? Take your money to a school that does respect your beliefs. With enrollment down across the country, it would cause more harm to Vanderbilt than to the student.

edit on 2-2-2012 by WTFover because: left out the link

edit on 2-2-2012 by WTFover because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 09:20 AM
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Originally posted by Mcupobob
So the school is allowed to discriminated and bar freedoms?



What??

No, they're allowed to enforce their equality rules.
You're seeing it as the school discriminating when actually they are stopping discrimination.







So the guy has the right to bully his way into the group? Yes and I know that it shouldn't be the Christian way, and something something god forgives all. However religion is a made up thing with made up rules. If a member doesn't want to follow that groups rules then they should reserve the right to kick them out.




No, he has the right to join any group within the school.
The group gets funding from the school and has to adhere to the school's policy.





So its not about right or wrong its about school Policy now? I thought private insinuations were not allowed to discriminate, based on color, sexuality, or creed?



They are doing the opposite?
They are stopping discrimination!




Let me put it this way, I see this as the the kid that wants to join a stupid clique at school. They don't want him nor like him so he runs to the teacher and forces the cool kids to play with him.



It's nothing like that at all.
This group gets funding from the school and has no right discriminating against this guy.


edit on 2/2/12 by blupblup because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 09:31 AM
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reply to post by WTFover
 



It's not the same... maybe this guy IS gay?

This isn't a case of a women trying to join a mens group or a white man trying to join a black group....


This guy is a Christian (AFAIK) and has every right to join this group.


This guy was a member of this group and happily participated (AFAIK) and it was only when he was attempting to obtain a leadership position that the group asked him to resign.
So they were happy for him to be a member but not to be a leader.... why?
Did they think his gayness would rub off on them (excuse the pun) or something?

Makes no sense...

I back the university,
edit on 2/2/12 by blupblup because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 10:26 AM
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reply to post by WTFover
 



Originally posted by WTFover
My opinion is each of these groups has the right to exclude people who do not share the fundamental beliefs and tenets of the organization.


I agree. And in the same vein, the school has the right to exclude groups who do not share the fundamental beliefs and tenets of the school, including their discrimination policy.



Take your money to a school that does respect your beliefs.


The school DOES respect this gay student. It's the Christian group that doesn't respect the school's beliefs... So, should they just move along to another school that does? You might be on to something there...



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 11:28 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by WTFover
 


The school DOES respect this gay student. It's the Christian group that doesn't respect the school's beliefs... So, should they just move along to another school that does? You might be on to something there...


That is my point. I believe the school is within their legal rights to enforce their rules on student organizations, which they support financially (which includes providing meeting places, although the SCOTUS has established they can not exclude religious organizations from using university property for meetings/gatherings). Of course, the university must enforce its policies equally among all student organizations, including a male's inclusion in a female org or a white person's inclusion in a black student org.

What I am pointing out is the difference in what is legal and what is proper. Sure the school can legally take this action, but the students who disagree with the university's decision also have the right to take their money elsewhere. And in my opinion, if they do not do so, it will show where they priorities lie.

I don't believe there is a legal issue, unless it can be proven this action is a diversion from the normal practices of the university and unfairly targets the religious orgs. If they do not equally enforce and define "discrimination".



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 11:38 AM
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Originally posted by blupblup
reply to post by WTFover
 



It's not the same...


Yes. It is.



posted on Feb, 2 2012 @ 11:53 AM
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reply to post by WTFover
 



Originally posted by WTFover
Of course, the university must enforce its policies equally among all student organizations, including a male's inclusion in a female org or a white person's inclusion in a black student org.


This kid wasn't kicked out because he wasn't a Christian, though. He was kicked out because he's gay.
It's a Christian group. He's a Christian. He joined. If he was an atheist, they could kick him out.

To make an analogy, let's take the Black Law Student Association. If a black law student joined this club and then got kicked out because he doesn't wear a seat belt, that would be discriminatory.

But if a white engineering student joined the Black Law Student Association, it wouldn't be discrimination to kick him out. He's not a Black Law Student...



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