Ranger zaps off-leash dog walker with shock weapon

reply to post by Xcathdra


You can link all the Cause, Effect, Deployment procedures you want on a Tazzer.

If there is an idiot holding the Tazzer, with a "superior" attitude. Therein lies the problem.

Maybe a good reminder, would be for all Cops to be tazzed once a week, make them think before they taze someone.

I'm not sure we should be comparing cops to nazis, we as a country have seen our civil liberties shrink, and though we may be in the ballpark of fascism, we're not quite there yet. I find it unfair and irresponsible to label the men and women sworn to protect us as gestapo. There are crappy people in any profession, the biggest concern I have with police organizations is the amount of nepotism that seems to be prevalent, but overall, I've never had any type of real issue with the officers I have come across.

A few different stories have been brought up at this point, and frankly they are all very different.

IMO the ranger shouldn't have tazed the guy, there were plenty of options for a peaceful resolution here... but at the same time I kinda get it. How disrespectful is it to break the law in front of an officer, ignore said officer, and then turn your back and walk away? He probably wasn't expecting that reaction, but he should have been expecting something. I'm not saying what the officer did was right, but the individual was kind of asking for it.

As far as the mentally handicapped gentleman is concerned..... that whole story disgusted me. Those officers have no right to walk amongst civilized people, and anything bad that happens to them is nothing more than karma.

Finally, the story about the middle school student who was shot and killed by officers. Very sad story, and if you accept the explanation that the officers couldn't tell that it was a pellet gun, then they really didn't have much choice. I feel for the kids family.... it is a tragedy. However, if you are running around a school brandishing a realistic looking weapon, not listening to police or administrators, and you should expect to get shot at. I'm not going to go swimming with sharks while covered in meat and expect to not get nibbled... c'mon.

Just saying'.

reply to post by Tw0Sides


Almost all departments require the officer to be hit with the taser so they know the effects and what to expect from the person they are dealing with. The same goes for pepper spray as well as control techniques.

Secondly thank you for proving my point. There is such a paranoid and blanket hatred for law enforcement on this site that people refuse to accept any facts when they dont support their argument. Just because you or others don't like a particular law doesn't mean the law is null and void.

Funny enough those who are complaining have not posted any factual information / links to support their counter arguments. I welcome people to research and counter my posts. Whats so difficult about that? Anything less and one could make the argument that its intentional ignorance on their part.

Ignorance -

noun
1.The condition of being ignorant; lack of knowledge or learning: benightedness, illiteracy, illiterateness, nescience. See knowledge/ignorance.
2.The condition of being uninformed or unaware: innocence, nescience, obliviousness, unawareness, unconsciousness, unfamiliarity. See knowledge/ignorance.

Again its ironic that people demand law enforcement follow the laws while defending non law enforcement when they break the law. I wont point out the hypocrisy...

Originally posted by Xcathdra

Funny enough those who are complaining have not posted any factual information / links to support their counter arguments. I welcome people to research and counter my posts. Whats so difficult about that? Anything less and one could make the argument that its intentional ignorance on their part.

Why don't people counter your posts ??

Because your post are all procedure, guidelines and rules of usage.

Those are good for recruits to learn.

PROBLEM though , is when Cops take to the field, all that is "out the window"

Cops take the "above the law" attitude to the streets and , knowing they will never be held for their actions, are free to become Judge , Jury , Executioner.

reply to post by Osiris1953

the officers couldn't tell that it was a pellet gun

That sucks.
You know they don't mark BB and pellet guns as toys either, and maybe they should. My 14 year old son thinks its funny to remove the orange ends off of his toy guns and I always have to tell him that those are there to protect him.

reply to post by Tw0Sides

Why don't people counter your posts ??

Because your post are all procedure, guidelines and rules of usage.

Those are good for recruits to learn.

PROBLEM though , is when Cops take to the field, all that is "out the window"

Cops take the "above the law" attitude to the streets and , knowing they will never be held for their actions, are free to become Judge , Jury , Executioner.

I just had to throw in my two cents here because my step father was a cop.
He could have an attitude at times, there is no doubt about that, but what it seems to come down to is that he only had a problem with people that were either out of line, or bold enough to ignore there own stupidly. I have seen both sides of the coin here. From being in the police car with him as hes pulling someone over for speeding, but tells them he wont issue them a ticket because his pen ran out of ink, all the way to police brutality.

Of course he was never the instigator, he would allow the person to instigate the problem and it would escalate from there. Cops have to have a bipolar mind, if you think about it. One minute they are consoling someone that lost a loved one, and the next minute they are chasing an armed robber, and its really just like that, I rode in the car enough to know. They have to be able to shift there emotions like a switch, and that's just insane. I'm not saying they never screw up, we all know they do, and I'm not backing them either, I'm just saying its got to be a tough job, and it would take one hell of a person to do it right all the time.

reply to post by itsthetooth


The whole thing really was just an awful state of affairs. Boys love fake guns....the situation was just a shame. I want to say that the kid should have had some common sense, but teenage boys are morons, and that needs to be accounted for. At the very least, I know I was a moron at that age.

reply to post by Tw0Sides


You arent answering the question. Yes the info I post are guidelines and laws, and the reason for that is for people who don't know the law / guidelines / court rulings and jump to conclusions, usually incorrect ones.

Those laws / guidelines / policies / court rulings are what defined the rangers use of her Taser. If you don't have the background info then how could you or anyone else render a judgment? Your doing so on partial facts / partial information while at the same time refusing to research the material that places the actions into context.

Even giving you guys the info / sources so you can research on your own, its still ignored and attacked simply because people want to hate the police. If you and others feel im wrong, then prove me wrong and show sources that support your argument. Thats all I am asking for and is a lot more conducive to actually getting information / knowledge / understanding out of the thread.

So instead of calling me names and dodging my question, feel free to point out in my posts where I am wrong and please support that argument with sources and facts.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
Even giving you guys the info / sources so you can research on your own, its still ignored and attacked simply because people want to hate the police.
So instead of calling me names and dodging my question,

Even as you post, You post from a "Us against you" attitude, that defends all actions of LEO's.

The frustration that you read is not a , I want to hate cops, point of view.

The frustration is that the cops are supposed to work to keep us from violence, keep us safe in our cars.

Be the separating force from the wrong doer's in our society.

But when the Cops are the ones doing violence to us, the Cops are the wrong doer's.

Who the Hell can we turn to????

That's the Frustration your reading,

reply to post by Osiris1953

The whole thing really was just an awful state of affairs. Boys love fake guns....the situation was just a shame. I want to say that the kid should have had some common sense, but teenage boys are morons, and that needs to be accounted for. At the very least, I know I was a moron at that age.

And your exactly right as well, I was an idiot when I was a teenager as well.

sad...
and the tazer is so they dome have to shoot and kill them.
dont some thing to use in a chat.

***** should have pulled her glock and put one in that ************ back. How dare he walk away from one of his betters; he got off easy! The day people no longer fear and respect their masters is the day our safe and well ordered society falls apart. I just read a thread about a black man who refused to go back to his masters plantation, to the place where he was raised, cared for and protected. Can you believe that? Showing that kind of disrespect... This woman should be given a medal.

Originally posted by Tw0Sides
Even as you post, You post from a "Us against you" attitude, that defends all actions of LEO's.

wrong - I have stated a few times now in this thread that the use of the taser was a bad idea and another method should have been used. The other part of that is me stating based on the guys actions and the law, which apparently annoys people, she was within the established criteria. Just because you can act doesn't necessarily mean you should act. You and a lot of other people confuse my posts with unwavering support for law enforcement, again without doing any research. When I post the info and state its allowable doesn't mean I agree with the actions. Something you and others should think about before going off on people.

As far as the us vs them mentality, that sir is coming from you, not me. You are the one making the blanket / stereotyping statements, not me. I have acknowledged both sides of this incident where as you are solely focusing on the Park Ranger. When you refuse to understand / read the law / guidelines / policies / court rulings, it creates the us vs them.

Originally posted by Tw0Sides
The frustration that you read is not a , I want to hate cops, point of view.

Its coming across that way via the blanket comments and your view on me posting the laws and explaining how things work. You dont seem interested at all in learning the material that guides law enforcement actions.

Originally posted by Tw0Sides
The frustration is that the cops are supposed to work to keep us from violence, keep us safe in our cars.

I understand your frustrations because I have them as well. However, if im driving down the road and a person in the lane next to me is not paying attention and ends up coming into my lane and hitting me, I am not going to hold all people who caused an accident in contempt.

Originally posted by Tw0Sides
Be the separating force from the wrong doer's in our society.

Fair enough but if you feel this way then shouldn't you also take the time to understand the laws? If you wish to hold law enforcement accountable the first step is to look under the hood to see the engine and how it works. Only then can you locate the problem and formulate a plan to make the repairs needed.

Originally posted by Tw0Sides
But when the Cops are the ones doing violence to us, the Cops are the wrong doer's.

Again you are creating an us vs. them mentality with blanket statements like this. You are taking your frustrations and projecting them on all law enforcement / people who hold a differing view.

As an example using the op topic. The man was lawfully detained, meaning he was not free to walk away from the ranger. The guy ignored all verbal commands to stop, provided false identification etc etc etc. The Supreme court standard is force can be used in making an arrest, where the force must be proportional to the situation. We are required to deescalate / end an encounter as quickly as possible.

TRy looking at this from the other side of the fence for a minute. During this encounter the guy failed to cooperate from the start. He ignored the verbal commands, which is an important fact. It means the situation escalated because verbal directives are no longer working. This perception now is if he refuses verbal, and he is trying to get away, any hands on approach could possibly end up in a physical confrontation, where either party could be severely injured in the process. As I said before, end the encounter as quickly as possible using the least amount of force necessary to effect the arrest.

If it turned into a knock down drag out fight, and I pointed this out earlier as well, the female park ranger will go through the force continuum more quickly than if it were a male present. Based on that info, if the ranger finds herself in a position where she perceives her life is in imminent danger / risk of severe bodily harm, it would qualify for the use of deadly force.

This guy was not treated the way he was because of his dogs off the leash. It occurred because the guy felt the ranger had no business doing what she was doing and opted to try and leave, which is resisting a lawful detention / stop.

Originally posted by Tw0Sides
Who the Hell can we turn to????

Well for starters people must get involved in government at all levels. Talk to your police / sheriffs department and find out if they have community orientated policing groups. Talk to the officers, the chief, elected officials about what you think is a problem.

This must be a 2 way street between the people we serve and government. Constructive criticism / feedback is always welcome. Just be sure to have suggestions to fix the problems. For every bad incident that ends up on tv, there are many many more good incidents that go unreported. The best example I can give for the visual would be like watching MSNBC or Fox News. If you watch MSNBC one would think the entire country are all Democrats and the Republicans re out to steal your children. The same goes for Fox News, where the portrayal is the entire country are Republicans and the Democrats are out to make a massive welfare state etc.

Point being its not an accurate representation of the country as a whole, and in this case its not an accurate representation of law enforcement as a whole.

Originally posted by Tw0Sides
That's the Frustration your reading,

I get you are frustrated, however taking that frustration out on all police does what exactly? It creates the us vs. them mentality that you have identified as part of the problem.

Just because I provide information in threads like these, and make the counter argument explaining the police, doesn't mean I am condoning any actions. It allows people to see where the officer is coming from and what laws were being used at the time.

It doesnt mean you have to agree with or accept the answer. If anything it could give you a good start on trying to get laws changed to correct behavior / actions / etc you dont agree with.

You cant fix a problem without having all the facts first.

REgards

Two concepts come to mind in summary...

1- Police State.
2- Terrorists!

LOL, Get used to it, America. Y/our tax dollars haaaaaard at work!

reply to post by Osiris1953


I will say this, the whole idea of a tazer can leave a cop dead.

It is possible, just like in the case of otto zhem, had otto of had a gun, and the cop pulled his tazer, otto might have shot him.
The problem is that the cop wouldn't have enough time to draw his gun as he is busy with the tazer in his hand.
There is a lesson to be learned here about drawing a tazer prematurely, it could leave you dead.

reply to post by itsthetooth


That thought had never occurred to me, but it's only logical... must consider.

reply to post by itsthetooth


Two cops friends of mine were killed in separate incidents early in 2011 while trying to use their tazer. Another 2 were killed the year before after repeatedly tazering a guy, and he was still able to draw and shoot them both.

In my opinion, they should either avoid force as much as possible, or they should be ready to use lethal force. Trying to dance in the middle somewhere is dangerous for everybody.

reply to post by getreadyalready


Thats horrible, and I'm going to partially agree with the guy before me, that maybe only guns should be used.

Originally posted by cconn487

Originally posted by ClydeFrog42

Originally posted by nightbringr
reply to post by -W1LL

 

You honestly have no clue.

It is getting worse in the US, yes. But comparing it to Nazi Germany is a laugh. I suggest you simply read a little of wikipedias entry on the Gestapo. Your US government is no were near as brutal yet. Not even close.

Yeah, no kidding. The comparison is almost disgusting. Anyone who knows anything about Nazi controlled Europe wouldn't dare compare it to modern day America.

Knowledge is power, people!!

Nobody is comparing it to modern day America. You have but nobody else did.

Gestapo were secret police. We have secret police. From the wiki.

The Gestapo had the authority to investigate cases of treason, espionage, sabotage and criminal attacks on the Nazi Party and Germany. The basic Gestapo law passed by the government in 1936 gave the Gestapo carte blanche to operate without judicial oversight. The Gestapo was specifically exempted from responsibility to administrative courts, where citizens normally could sue the state to conform to laws. As early as 1935, however, a Prussian administrative court had ruled that the Gestapo's actions were not subject to judicial review. The SS officer Werner Best, onetime head of legal affairs in the Gestapo,[9] summed up this policy by saying, "As long as the police carries out the will of the leadership, it is acting legally."[4]

Sound familiar?

Seriously its happening all over again, we are passing the same laws that were precursors to Nazi Germany. This is our CIA. The facts are available 24/7.

Lol. Did I now? point out the areas where i said that, if you are so inclined... something tells me thats not happening.

Funny, you charge me with comparing the two, and then you go right on doing exactly the thing you had just denied. More rife hypocrisy from an ATS wingnut.

That large, useless quote... is just that, useless. Because it does not sounds familiar, because there is absolutely no equivalent in modern day america.

Wheres the American 'Night of the Long Knives?' how many brownshirts have your secret police killed in one night? 30? zero? chicken sandwich?

How many storefronts, owned by minorities, has your secret police ransacked? Im thinking of a number...... ZERO!

How many Jews has your secret police shot in the back of the neck at point blank range? How many pogroms have your secret police instigated? In fact, what has your "secret police" done, at all, that is even remotely as controversial as any of these acts? describe 3.

If your secret police is so extreme and so fascist, how many communists have they imprisoned? killed? forced into labour camps?

For that matter.... who are your secret police? you failed to mention that... and the Central Intelligence Agency doesnt count. Why? because they are not police, at all. In any way, shape, or form. When is the last time you saw a CIA agent walking a beat? I bet I can guess this one, too..... NEVER!

Looks like your comparison is, at best, completely moronic. And, yes, it is a comparison, despite your convictions.

You think you've got it so bad, in 21st century America? HA! I laugh in your misinformed face. How many seconds did you spend looking at the wikipedia entry for the SS before you thought "OH NO, AMERICAS IN DANGER!!"

Maybe you should learn a thing or two about the nature of totalitarianism, and what it means for liberties such as talking a bunch of crap on the internet about the regime that owns your ass.

The very fact that you are abel to express yourself freely and without reprisal in a controversial public domain such as this entails that you are not living in a totalitarian state, your and the "secret police", which you seem to think is a problem, are basically non existent.

Because a dissenter, like yourself, would be thrown in a cell with dirty faeces on the wall, or shot in the spine.

Keep living in lala land, please. You've got it sooooo tough. Try being murdered by your neighbours because you were born with curly hair.

I find the comparison you draw ABSOLUTELY SICKENING.

reply to post by cconn487


By the way, if your going to copy and past paragraphs from Wikipedia, the LEAST you could do is use a source.

Or, maybe, learn something for yourself before you pretend to know what your talking about.