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Greece wipes out Citizens Debt!! Tells Bankers to suck it

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posted on Feb, 1 2012 @ 02:46 PM
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reply to post by mnmcandiez
 


You're really taking my comments into a much broader context than I intended. I thought I made that clear in my last reply to you.

I think we'll just have to agree that we don't share the same sentiment. I'm certainly not convincing you, and you're talking about all sorts of issues that I am not even discussing.




posted on Feb, 1 2012 @ 02:52 PM
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Originally posted by LanceCorvette

Originally posted by micmerci
reply to post by PurpleDog UK
 


Why be pissed? How is someone receiving a forgiveness a harm to you. It does not affect you at all. This is the same attitude as the brother of the prodigal son.


This is fundamental economics. If the bank cannot collect the $$$ it lent to the other person, it has to get it back somehow. They're not in the business of just giving away money - they have an obligation to their shareholders to not only get the principal returned, but a reasonable return on the investment.

So, where do they get it from? From higher interest rates (and more bank fees!) on customers who do in fact pay their debts. In other words, the people who pay their debts are also paying the defaulted debts. Your "pissed" person is paying some other deadbeat's debt. That's why he's pissed.

It also makes it harder for the other non-defaulting folks to get loans in the first place, because lending standards are tightened if the banks fear more defaults. So money becomes less available for purchases and businesses and investments.

Which is why we are in the mess we are in today - from too many defaults on bad home loans (more complicated, of course, but this is the nutshell version)


Thank you, LanceCorvette, for explaining it that way. I've tried (apparently not well) to make a point similar to this, but keep getting replies about how the money is fake and all this stuff about Greece....

You've done a much better job than I was able to do of describing how the responsible ARE affected by the irresponsible. So we DO have the right to care.



posted on Feb, 1 2012 @ 03:03 PM
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reply to post by GeorgiaGirl
 


yes....but the banks did get paid back, they duped the investors into buying (what they knew was troubled) mortgage backed securities...payment number one...
then, they got nice big bailouts, which some of the money they used to give their upper management nice big bonuses....payment number two, which we, the taxpayers will be paying for either through inflation, or taxation, or maybe a little of both along with higher fees for gov't services and less gov't services...
then, well, they are either getting their payment on the mortgage, or they are taking back the house and selling it....

so, ya see, the banks are doing just fine....
the people, well that's another story!!!!



posted on Feb, 1 2012 @ 03:15 PM
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Originally posted by DivineFem

Originally posted by Nite_wing
I just read every American owes the Government $189,000. I can't pay that. I wonder if a bankruptcy court would wipe out my personal debt to the government?


Where did you read that? I'd be interested to know WHY we owe them money when they're constantly taking money from us.


Its because, the 189 thousand is the capital, and what you give them is only the interest rate.
So actually you have a loan that you dont know about, or ever wanted, and you have to pay your payments apart of everything else...



posted on Feb, 1 2012 @ 03:59 PM
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The people are revolting against the same banks which put people into debt and enslavement with predatory practices and the usage of usury (lending of money on interest). It is for this reason it is forbidden in all major world religions (usury). Could we see something similar in the USA?



Seriously? Whatever happened to personal responsibility? Do you really think the banks put a gun to these people's heads and forced them to go into debt?

Shoot - I made some poor choices with credit that have taken me over 15 years to work through. I now regret those choices but know that they were my free choice to make.

You mention that it is forbidden by major religions, but at least in the Bible, the book of Proverbs repeatedly tells those that would borrow that the borrower becomes slave to the lender. If you don't heed the warning, don't go crying about it!!!



posted on Feb, 1 2012 @ 04:02 PM
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Originally posted by GeorgiaGirl

Originally posted by LanceCorvette

Originally posted by micmerci
reply to post by PurpleDog UK
 


Why be pissed? How is someone receiving a forgiveness a harm to you. It does not affect you at all. This is the same attitude as the brother of the prodigal son.


This is fundamental economics. If the bank cannot collect the $$$ it lent to the other person, it has to get it back somehow. They're not in the business of just giving away money - they have an obligation to their shareholders to not only get the principal returned, but a reasonable return on the investment.

So, where do they get it from? From higher interest rates (and more bank fees!) on customers who do in fact pay their debts. In other words, the people who pay their debts are also paying the defaulted debts. Your "pissed" person is paying some other deadbeat's debt. That's why he's pissed.

It also makes it harder for the other non-defaulting folks to get loans in the first place, because lending standards are tightened if the banks fear more defaults. So money becomes less available for purchases and businesses and investments.

Which is why we are in the mess we are in today - from too many defaults on bad home loans (more complicated, of course, but this is the nutshell version)


Thank you, LanceCorvette, for explaining it that way. I've tried (apparently not well) to make a point similar to this, but keep getting replies about how the money is fake and all this stuff about Greece....

You've done a much better job than I was able to do of describing how the responsible ARE affected by the irresponsible. So we DO have the right to care.


You're welcome. I don't expect the "irresponsible" to really give a rat's, though, as you've seen they just keep trying to justify taking taking taking (and, in cases like Greece, they throw violent temper tantrums when they don't get their cookies and milk )...

And I prefer the term "moochers" rather than "irresponsible." I like to rile up the moochers whenever possible (logic usually works best - insert smiley here!)



posted on Feb, 1 2012 @ 04:06 PM
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Originally posted by dawnstar
reply to post by GeorgiaGirl
 


then, they got nice big bailouts, which some of the money they used to give their upper management nice big bonuses....payment number two, which we, the taxpayers will be paying for either through inflation, or taxation, or maybe a little of both along with higher fees for gov't services and less gov't services...


Which, even though I think you and I fundamentally disagree on the "fault" and "who should pay", I also agree the gub'mint bailouts should never have happened. Yes, they were abused, but more to the point, that's not the proper role for a government in a capitalist system.

In capitalist systems, risk/reward is the basic unit of trade. And like yin and yang, without the potential of failure, likewise there will be no potential of reward.

The banks, trading houses, etc. should have been allowed to "fail" if the smart money determined they were no longer viable investments.



posted on Feb, 1 2012 @ 04:19 PM
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I will tell you who should pay, and this is the banking families that perpetrated this fraud on the world.
There is not enough money in the world to pay back this debt, and the printing presses are going ape # trying to keep up with the demands for "liquidity".
It is not rocket science. You cannot have private bankers loan paper that they create at interest that is NOT created. The purchasing power of the currency continues to fall until it is worthless.
If there were value in the dollar for example, they would pay INTEREST on savings. There is NO VALUE.
There is a difference between a textbook answer to why we are in this position and the real story. It is not because of deadbeats not paying loans back, it is because of a criminal class that loans paper, and charges LABOR for it.
Like I said, it is not rocket science.



posted on Feb, 1 2012 @ 04:24 PM
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Originally posted by HighMaintenance
reply to post by micmerci
 


I have a lot of sympathy for those people that have lived within their means, that have taken out mortgages and improved their homes only to find that now their homes are worth a fraction of what they owe through no fault of their own, I also have a lot of sympathy for those people that haven't spent outrageously but have taken out loans and used credit cards etc that now find themselves unemployed, again through no fault of their own, with no means of repaying what they owe, my anger in these cases is directed towards the banksters and incompetent/corrupt politicians that enabled this to happen.

What I do not and cannot condone is PERSONAL debt forgiveness for those that have spent recklessly, holidays (sometimes more than one) every year, brand new cars on the driveway (fair enough those loans are usually secured on the car so they will lose that!!), 10 credit cards in their wallet all spent to the max on the latest gadgets etc etc all without having the means to repay what they have borrowed. Just because the banks (very much so in Greece) were throwing credit cards and loans at people does not mean they had to take them and spend to the max!!
IMO if they want debt forgiveness/relief then they must first show that they have done everything in their power to repay those debts by selling all the tat they bought, then and only then would I consider having any sympathy for them. And yes mcdgray129 it DOES impact on me, if they don't pay, who do you think will?? It certainly won't be the banks!!


Well then go take it up with whatever bank you're with, or leave it now and join a credit union
.
And you have already been ripped off (as most of us have been) with the bank bailouts, but when it comes to people getting bailed out you have a problem
.....
edit on 1-2-2012 by mcdgray129 because: (no reason given)

edit on 1-2-2012 by mcdgray129 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 1 2012 @ 04:30 PM
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HEY, THIS CANADIAN WANTS IN SOME OF THAT ACTION.

WIPE OUT ALL DEBT.



posted on Feb, 1 2012 @ 04:45 PM
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The last time I did the math on the current national debt, I calculated that every man, woman,
and child in the US would have to pay about 40k to meet the obligation. That was on a debt that
was rounded to 14 trillion.

So to whom do we owe this money?

I realize as I am typing that this is probably the most naive question I have ever asked on ATS. And that I could
probably find a fairly reputable answer with a few minutes with a few well placed clicks on the mouse.

But the circumstances of the question are more intriguing than the answer.

Every person (born) into the US is born into debt. I suppose the caveat would be that if a US citizen
renounced his citizenship and left the country this debt would be dissolved.

But the naive question still remains, and my attempt to find the answer is only cursory...

For instance we citizens owe South Korea about 30 billion. I will use this example to make a
point.

We have aided South Korea, and continue to aid south Korea to the tune of billions per year.
We have shed our blood and money on their behalf (ostensibly). And yet we somehow
OWE them.

That is like letting someone who has fallen on bad times, live in your house for free, eat your food,
for free, use your water, gas, electric, for free....and then borrowing money from them
AT INTEREST! I always thought of myself as a generous person but I NEVER KNEW I was THAT
generous.

The total US debt to foreign countries is about 5 trillion. But we are in debt 14 trillion. Is that owed in
bonds? Is it owed to banks??

I have new baby grandchild, and one day while I was baby-sitting I thought it was prudent to inform
her of her personal share of this debt, (I felt it was only fair that get a start on her new life with
all the information I could provide.)

Upon my "informing" her of this information, she promptly threw down the bottle of pre-squeezed breast
milk she was nourishing herself on, looked me right in the eye and retorted, with more than a little anger
in her voice...

""And to whom do I OWE this SUPPOSED damned debt??"

The she started kicking. screaming, and crying.

She has been diagnosed as a bit "colic-ey" by doctors, so I wasn't sure if she was really angry
at the notion that she was born into debt, or if it was just the colic kicking in. Anyway, I didn't
have a ready answer...



posted on Feb, 1 2012 @ 04:47 PM
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Jim Sinclair 5 major US banks to default this week says Jim Sinclair

geraldcelentechannel.blogspot.com...

if true, it kind of puts an interesting twist on things.....
the same big banks that are up to their neck and would go under are also the ones who runs the group that will decide if greece technically defaults or not, and since they will lose tons of money if greece defaults...
well, greece won't default!! simple as that, even if they only get 10% or what greece owes, well, it won't be the banks that lose out, it will be those that bought the credit defaults as a hedge against the debt that they also bought....

that's probably the biggest problem in our economy at the moment, there's no honesty within it!! it's all one great big scam, with the deck stacked against us....and in favor of the big banks....

I pay my bills, but I will tell ya something, the day I find out that their game has tarnished the title to my house and the only way I could sell it is by taking cash, since there's no way a bank will loan money for a house that doesn't have a clear title, well, that will be a breach of contract as far as I am concerned!! the bank can have the house, and I will walk away....feeling no guilt whatsoever!



posted on Feb, 1 2012 @ 04:49 PM
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Originally posted by SurrealisticPillow
reply to post by GeorgiaGirl
 

You don't understand what is going on.


Actually, YOU don't understand what is going on... This is about character and personal choices. Lifestyle issues versus life and death choices.



posted on Feb, 1 2012 @ 04:55 PM
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reply to post by JimmyNeutron
 

Why don't you clarify your statement.
Then, we can talk.



posted on Feb, 1 2012 @ 05:02 PM
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Originally posted by PurpleDog UK

Originally posted by micmerci
reply to post by PurpleDog UK
 


Why be pissed? How is someone receiving a forgiveness a harm to you. It does not affect you at all. This is the same attitude as the brother of the prodigal son.


Pissed because I have gone without whilst others have had it all and more and not worried about how to pay for any of it ??

They have lived without care and People like me have done without because we see and understand responsibility and values.......

Cancelling debts is rewarding blind stupidity and ignorance.....neither of which make for a society worth living or being part of .......

PDUK


However, one must consider the terms and conditions that the Greeks are operating under. Given that their unemployment rate is nearly 20%, how can 1 out of every 5 afford to live if they have no income? Certainly, the only answer besides panhandling is creating some sort of debt in hopes that some day they will have a job and be able to pay it off. The unemployment rate of those 25 and under is 47%, that's huge. Older generations might have prior wealth to rely on, but younger generations do not and therefore must rely on credit. I understand there's a certain disdain and jealousy because you feel that people are being rewarded for something they did not earn or deserve, but the fact is that these people did not deserve untenable debt, nor did they ask for it.



posted on Feb, 1 2012 @ 05:03 PM
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Originally posted by SurrealisticPillow
I will tell you who should pay, and this is the banking families that perpetrated this fraud on the world.
There is not enough money in the world to pay back this debt, and the printing presses are going ape # trying to keep up with the demands for "liquidity".
It is not rocket science. You cannot have private bankers loan paper that they create at interest that is NOT created. The purchasing power of the currency continues to fall until it is worthless.
If there were value in the dollar for example, they would pay INTEREST on savings. There is NO VALUE.
There is a difference between a textbook answer to why we are in this position and the real story. It is not because of deadbeats not paying loans back, it is because of a criminal class that loans paper, and charges LABOR for it.
Like I said, it is not rocket science.


I really like your assessment, as I have always thought of money in this way, but have never heard
anyone else refer to it this way.

To me, money (and I mean all forms of currency, fiat paper, or no) is simply an agreed upon
~amount of labor~.

It is analogous to the horsepower of a vehicle. One "horsepower" is defined as a certain amount of
energy. In that same way, I see a dollar as equating to a certain amount of labor. This is from where
all my arguments about money originate--from this perspective. For this system to work we all have to
agree that this money is actually a denomination of a certain amount of labor, but we have given
bankers the ability to manipulate this denomination of labor as money at their will.
The foxes are watching the henhouse...



posted on Feb, 1 2012 @ 05:19 PM
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reply to post by GeorgiaGirl
 


You don't seem to realize that it's not that the system has been hijacked, this is how the system is supposed to work. The Fractional Reserve financial system relies on the existence of unpayable debts. If everyone paid every cent of their debts off tomorrow (even though that is physically impossible), the whole system would collapse most ricky-tick. See, the loaning of money with interest used to be called Usury, an offense that was punishable by death. But now, however, usury is defined in the public mind as "just the way it works." Biggest copout going if you ask me.



posted on Feb, 1 2012 @ 05:31 PM
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Originally posted by xXxinfidelxXx
reply to post by GeorgiaGirl
 


You don't seem to realize that it's not that the system has been hijacked, this is how the system is supposed to work. The Fractional Reserve financial system relies on the existence of unpayable debts. If everyone paid every cent of their debts off tomorrow (even though that is physically impossible), the whole system would collapse most ricky-tick. See, the loaning of money with interest used to be called Usury, an offense that was punishable by death. But now, however, usury is defined in the public mind as "just the way it works." Biggest copout going if you ask me.


One thing you must admit, it is a brilliant system in its deception.



posted on Feb, 1 2012 @ 05:38 PM
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reply to post by rival
 

Yeah, it takes your labor to earn the currency, that year after year becomes worth less and less until the debt is unable to be paid because your labor is devalued along with the currency.
It is really beneficial to the creators of this fraud. You see, they get REAL assets for their toilet paper. They get your labor, and if you can't pay, you often voluntarily surrender REAL assets, or they take them.
Who has the gold and who do we owe the money to? The same people. You would think that if they loaned money and it wasn't going to be paid back, they would be out something. Fact is, they are reaping huge profits.
It is criminal, and they should be guillotined. Our ancestors were much smarter about money than we are I am afraid.
AND, willing to do something about it.
We will have to suffer a great deal before we come to our senses.



posted on Feb, 1 2012 @ 06:10 PM
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This is the problem, the money lenders are not happy with just making low interest on loans some aren't even happy making obscene interest on loans and have turned predatory. I applied for financing on a car at a 24% compounded interest rate. I was fine with that because my credit at the time wasn't very good and the bottom line was that I could afford the payments. I figured as long as I made all my payments over the five years in the end I would own a decent car. Four years into the contract I received a letter stating that I owed them $8000.00 so I called them up and asked what the additional charges were for and they told me that I was being charged a monthly fee plus compounded interest for not providing them with proof that I had insurance for my car. I asked them why they waited four years to inform me of these additional charges and they told me that they had sent me numerous letters which is total BS. So I sent them my drivers abstract proving that I had my vehicle insured the whole time expecting them to wave the fees because they were unwarranted. Nope, no such luck. They wanted all the money. So I fought with them for the remaining year of my contract. After I made my last scheduled payment I received my end of contract statement and on it it said that I still owed an additional $12000.00. I was floored, my original loan was for just over $16000.00 at the end of my contract I had paid almost $34000.00 , they more than doubled their money and still wanted another $12000.00 out of me. I fought with them for almost another year, In the end, they ended up settling for about half that. I really didn't have a leg to stand on because it was in the contract. It was something I overlooked in the book sized contract I signed and I know that's what they count on. It's completely predatory and there should be laws in place to protect people from these kind of lending practices.

So, good on Greece for sticking it to the Banksters. I would like to see the whole system come crashing down. Screw the Banks and the corrupt system they represent. We need something better.



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