Greece wipes out Citizens Debt!! Tells Bankers to suck it

reply to post by edmc^2

Nope.
It is actually better if they set fire to their parliament.
A "controlled burn"....

Originally posted by SurrealisticPillow
reply to post by edmc^2

 

Nope.
It is actually better if they set fire to their parliament.
A "controlled burn"....

you arsonist you - got me laughing for a min there.

"controlled burn"...sounds like Nero burning Rome then blamed someone else.

But seriously - how did this entire fiasco began? Who started it?

Was it the government/parliament or the people?

Or the people wanted a free lunch then the politician gave it to them?

I guess it doesn't matter now.

Why should the banks work to destroy the value of something they create in the first place? It is not as if the fiat currencies, paper or electronic, have any value by themselves that somebody should work to destroy.

reply to post by Observor


ummmm...because once the chaos hits, the jobs fly away, just about all the wealth the people have accumulated is wiped out, they go under and the banks and their buddies end up scooping up all the real assets in the country, ya know, homes, land, ect.... which is worth far more than their little pieces of paper...

China has the same banking system and no one has lost faith in the Chinese currency. If anything, the faith in the Chinese Yuan is going up with many countries agreeing to accept Yuan as payment for their goods. Yes, the US$ will become worth nothing pretty soon and perhaps the Euro too, but that is not the fault of the banking system. Many other currencies which follow the same system of creation and management won't be affected by this.

china's currency has been artificially held down by gov't policies....so, it probably has plenty of room to grow, even in the worst of times. and yes, the banks are at fault in this, they knowingly chopped up and bundled a bunch of mortgages and bundled them together and then rated something that they knew was crap triple A and pawned the securities off all over the world... and then to top things off, they kept crappy records of what they were doing so it turned out that they couldn't foreclose on most of these homes without breaking the laws!!!!
don't tell me they were innocent, honest businessmen, I don't buy that one!

When the US currency loses its value, so does the US government debt denominated in the US$. No, your children and grandchildren will be paying nothing for the US government's obligations of today. The guys who will left high and dry are those that lent the money to the US government. But even they may not lose big if they play their cards right.

so, who is one of the biggest creditors of the gov't...
oh, ya, the social security fund!!! wiped out!!! iras and retirement funds?? alot of them held those mortgage securities in them so WIPED OUT!!! inflation, oh ya!!! and what doesn't ever keep up with inflation, oh ya, the earnings of the lower half of the income earners!!!! who's getting a free pass plus tons of bailout money?? the banks!!! who's getting shafted?? the people!!!

You should have been in charge of the US financial system Let me guess. So guys who can't pay their mortgage take loans and when they are about to default, the US government pays the banks what these guys owe them and they get to keep the house too. So tell me exactly why anyone would want to pay the mortgage? How about everyone simply pick a house they like and the government pay the cost of the house? Why even go through this unnecessary process of taking a loan from the bank and when on the verge of defaulting on the mortgage payments, government step in to pay the cost?

ya, ya, I know, the only ones in the world who should be held accountable is the lowly people trying to live!!! ya, got to teach them responsibility!!!

doesn't change the fact!!
the gov't and the fed has pumped in way more money in the form of bailouts and buy backs than if they had just paid all the mortgages off!!!

I can't wait for people to start trying to sell their homes and find out that their title isn't insurable because the dear banks and mers have screwed up the paperwork so badly!! (still say that if they needed robosigners just to foreclose, well, the titles are screwed!!) and alas, the dear gov't brokered a deal between the ag's and the banks that gave the gov't a small kickback for allowing the scam to take place, and well, the people end up with no legal options when the home's value is chopped to a quarter of it's value because no bank will loan money for someone to buy it with a bad title!!!

reply to post by dawnstar


EXACTLY my friend, he is going on about "responsibility", where is the responsibility in the colossal amount of money being pumped INTO the banks which could have been pumped DIRECTLY into the hands of each family- I think I prefer the latter as the former just appears to be one big black hole........

reply to post by dawnstar

ummmm...because once the chaos hits, the jobs fly away, just about all the wealth the people have accumulated is wiped out, they go under and the banks and their buddies end up scooping up all the real assets in the country, ya know, homes, land, ect.... which is worth far more than their little pieces of paper...

When the chaos hits and the money loses its value, people can clear off their debts by exchanging it for next to nothing. Money losing its value benefits enormously those in debt because their debt is denominated in the money, while their physical assets' value increases to account for the loss in purchasing power of the currency. For example something that is 1 unit in monetary value becomes 10 units in monetary value, if the currency inflates by 1000%, but the debt to the bank remains exactly the same as before the inflation. So by destroying the value of the money they issue bankers will make all the debtors suddenly debt-free. They get to acquire no physical assets.

Those who have savings in currency are the ones that stand to lose when the value of the currency is destroyed. Since no one is holding any savings as currency in the West, few lose anything when the currencies are destroyed.

You may be able to sell a used car and be rid of the home mortgage loan. If you even had a rudimentary understanding of the benefits that accrue to indebted individuals from a destruction of the value of the currency you will be demanding it, rather than fearing it.

china's currency has been artificially held down by gov't policies....so, it probably has plenty of room to grow, even in the worst of times.

The Yuan's exchange rate vis-a-vis the US$ is low, because China's savings are denominated in US$ and China allowing the Yuan to become stronger means losing the value of their savings. When China is assured of their savings retaining the value even when the US$ is consigned to the dustbin, China will allow it to happen, which is very soon.

Like I said, the currency losing value is a problem only for a few countries. It is not the problem of the banking system.

and yes, the banks are at fault in this, they knowingly chopped up and bundled a bunch of mortgages and bundled them together and then rated something that they knew was crap triple A and pawned the securities off all over the world... and then to top things off, they kept crappy records of what they were doing so it turned out that they couldn't foreclose on most of these homes without breaking the laws!!!!
don't tell me they were innocent, honest businessmen, I don't buy that one!

Of course they were dishonest crooked people, just like the rest of the population in those countries.

so, who is one of the biggest creditors of the gov't...
oh, ya, the social security fund!!! wiped out!!! iras and retirement funds?? alot of them held those mortgage securities in them so WIPED OUT!!! inflation, oh ya!!! and what doesn't ever keep up with inflation, oh ya, the earnings of the lower half of the income earners!!!! who's getting a free pass plus tons of bailout money?? the banks!!! who's getting shafted?? the people!!!

I don't see the banks holding a gun to anyone's head and forcing them to borrow and spend like there is no tomorrow. As you sow, so shall you reap.

ya, ya, I know, the only ones in the world who should be held accountable is the lowly people trying to live!!! ya, got to teach them responsibility!!!

doesn't change the fact!!
the gov't and the fed has pumped in way more money in the form of bailouts and buy backs than if they had just paid all the mortgages off!!!

The US government shouldn't have bailed the banks out. They should have allowed some of them to collapse and their assets acquired by the other solvent banks. That said, what the US government gave the banks was a temporary relief. All the money was paid back to the government.

reply to post by blueorder

EXACTLY my friend, he is going on about "responsibility", where is the responsibility in the colossal amount of money being pumped INTO the banks which could have been pumped DIRECTLY into the hands of each family- I think I prefer the latter as the former just appears to be one big black hole........

I don't see anyone in the West acting responsibly: neither the banks nor individuals. Irresponsible lending by the banks coupled with irresponsible borrowing from individuals is what brought the crisis about, but the money lent to the banks came back to the government, while if it had been used to bail the irresponsible borrowers the hole would have become bigger because the others too would borrow until the same crisis is created again and again.

It is kind of funny that you think you can get richer and richer simply by inflating the value of your existing assets and borrowing from the banks against these inflated asset values. Yeah, sure you managed it for a while, but can't do it indefinitely.

reply to post by Observor



I don't have so much debt, that I need gimmicks in order to make the payments???

ya, the value of assetts are inflated....
but here is what else will happen...is happening!!!
the cost of my electricity will go up, my food, my gas for the car, everything will go up!!!
and well, the cost my boss incurs...for felt, for the ink, for electricity, for everything will go up!!!
which will make him have to increase price that he has to charge for the product we produce.....I might add, in an environment that is just about demanding he find a wys to lower that cost!!!
so, well, will he also need about 50 employees demanding raises so they can keep up with that inflation..on top of the increased production cost, while dealing with the demand from the great he who grants us the right to use the logos and such that we produce more and charge less???

no, I don't think so!!
it will put him under. it will put many of the seniors under, it will put alot of us under!!!
ya. some will make out, and ya, there are things you can do now to offset the effect....
but, the biggest winners will be the ones who are invested the non paper assetts, land homes, metals, ect...
and well some stocks, but just about every company will be dealing with much the same as I described concerning my company....so, many will find that their inflated stocks are gonna pop overnight leaving them worth pennies if that!!!

and still...our gov't is spending like there is no tomorrow!!!
www.reuters.com...

I'm tired of hearing how I am not responsible...
I mean, I go to work everyday, even if I am crapping blood, and do my job, pay my bills, make due with what I have the best I can....have one credit card with less than half the available credit still available...try to keep it less that that, but at the moment that's where it is!! bought a home that over 70 years old, still in good shape and will probably outlive all those mc mansions that people were paying small fortunes for.....

and I am watching my gov't act like a bunch of kids in a candy store!!!! banks that are just out to scam more, like they ain't got enough now!! and ya know what??? when the bankers call their holiday, I am taking one also..... heck with it!!! I'll even give my boss a break and not take any vacation days, or sick days, or personal days for it!!! we can live on the canned soup that we have stocked up for awhile and the gov't can go without the tax dollars that I would have generated!! and well, the bills won't be paid till the bankers come back from their nice holiday, with the new currency to rip us all off again!!!

by the way, you sure that the banks paid back the bailout?? seems to me, that it was more like they dumbed their toxic assets onto fannie and freddie, and along with the fed giving them money secretly, well, they came up with the money to pay them back...and we are still bailing out fannie and freddie, so....
well......I think it might have been an illusion that they paid the money back....
I'll do a little searching and find some articles to back this up with, but pretty sure that was just and illusion....we gave them the money to pay back to us!!!
and they probably wouldn't have done that if the gov't hadn't started sticking their noses and claiming that they had a right to interfer with their nice big bonuses!!!

reply to post by dawnstar

I don't have so much debt, that I need gimmicks in order to make the payments???

That's good. But if you think your personal fiscal responsibility is going to insulate you from the collective fiscal irresponsibility of your fellow country-people, you are sorely mistaken. In an economy, especially a national economy, no one is insulated from the fiscal irresponsibility of the others. Every fiscally irresponsible individual impacts everyone else, fiscally responsible or not. But when fiscal irresponsibility becomes systemic as it has become throughout the West, everyone will be drastically impacted, as is happening now. Blaming any one institution or few individuals is clutching at straws is what I was pointing out.

I am not saying the banks have no responsibility in how things turned out. I am only saying they are no more responsible than any other institution or individuals for the current mess and there is no bankers' conspiracy to trash the currencies. It is more than two generations of collective fiscal irresponsibility in the Western countries that they find themselves in the current predicament. Contrast that with Japan. Japanese economy won't face any collapse precisely because their economy has been stagnant for an entire generation now. At the same time when Western economies were going through huge economic bubbles, Japan continued to stagnate, a decision taken collectively knowing that their economy has already reached a stage that is difficult to sustain, let alone grow. The same banking system exists in Japan as exists in the West.

reply to post by Observor


if we were japan, we would have had at least a few bankers committing Hara-Kiri...the japanese people seem to esteem honor a little more than americans do !!!

from what I've read, which isn't what I am looking for ....
at least some of the money that was used to repay the gov't came from money that was diverted from the small business loans program....

www.theblaze.com...

using a debasing currency to solve the problem is gonna hit those who on fixed incomes, and those who really don't own much in those hard assetts, who haven't seem pay raise in ages...;who more than likely really didn't play much of a role in creating the problem....
and using small business loan money to pay for their bailouts seems to me would be hitting those unemployed, who would consider starting their own business but well, the money isn't there because it went to paying for the bailouts and giving the freedom to the banks to lavish those high bonuses to their upper management...who, well, are also the ones who will be enjoying the rising values of all those hard assetts.....

seems to me, that those who profited the most by the scam are now ditching any and all responsibility for the cleanup onto those who least can afford to pay!!!

so much for responsibility!!!

reply to post by dawnstar

if we were japan, we would have had at least a few bankers committing Hara-Kiri...the japanese people seem to esteem honor a little more than americans do !!!

If the US were like Japan, lot of people would have been committing Hara-kiri, not just bankers. But the US is not like Japan.

from what I've read, which isn't what I am looking for ....
at least some of the money that was used to repay the gov't came from money that was diverted from the small business loans program....

The crisis was a matter of book keeping. Banks have to hold assets whose worth must be a certain fraction of the money they put into circulation. When the housing bubble burst, their assets in the form of home loans and CDOs fell sharply and their reserves fell below the required value. Since they can't suddenly recall their loans to recapitalise themselves/reduce the money in circulation, either the Federal Reserve had to reduce the CRR or the banks had to find someone who will make huge capital deposits to cover for the drop in the value of the assets. The government bailout was the latter option. Continuing to loan money out isn't a serious option for anyone who is trying to stay afloat by borrowing. as banks started receiving payments for loans made in the past, they were able to repay the bailout money.

using a debasing currency to solve the problem is gonna hit those who on fixed incomes, and those who really don't own much in those hard assetts, who haven't seem pay raise in ages...;who more than likely really didn't play much of a role in creating the problem....
and using small business loan money to pay for their bailouts seems to me would be hitting those unemployed, who would consider starting their own business but well, the money isn't there because it went to paying for the bailouts and giving the freedom to the banks to lavish those high bonuses to their upper management...who, well, are also the ones who will be enjoying the rising values of all those hard assetts.....

seems to me, that those who profited the most by the scam are now ditching any and all responsibility for the cleanup onto those who least can afford to pay!!!

so much for responsibility!!!

It is a game where the biggest crooks win and the biggest crooks won. That doesn't make the losers saints and worthy of sympathy. The game wouldn't have gone on if most of the losers weren't greedy crooks too.

reply to post by Observor

“Whoever controls the volume of money in our country is absolute master of all industry and commerce…and when you realize that the entire system is very easily controlled, one way or another, by few powerful men at the top, you will not have to be told how periods of inflation and depression originate.” – President James Garfield, 2 weeks before his assassination.

It seems that Garfield overestimated "you".
The BIG banks (the ones actually responsible for all of this) have NOT paid back anything really, their fraudulent activities proceed unchecked. You DON'T know the depth of the corruption, or WHY exactly this entire crisis was unnecessary. You pretend that a mortgagor is as much at fault for defaulting (after losing their employment) as a mortgagee involved in fraud.
Mortgage Servicing Fraud
More often than not, people borrow money intending to pay it back. The economy may be doing very well (or it may seem to, see link below) and perhaps they want to send the kids to college. Unknown to them is the behind the scenes manipulation, the bubbles that are created to give the illusion of a thriving economy. This is fraud.
The Great American Bubble Machine
The fraud is BY DESIGN. Get a clue.
Web of Debt

This was an interesting read. I have often felt that because of the over-leveraging and the vast amounts of debt allowed into the system, there has to be a reset coming...it appears, one one hand, to be inevitable. I am not a financier, so my numbers are probably just guesstimates...but...

I think Lending institutions are allowed to loan up to...what? 10 times of the actual security (real money/property) they own? Leading up to this meltdown...they were lending at 20, 30 and even more times what they had...so...as another person has said back through the pages...they were essentially counterfeiting...lending bad money. Does a counterfeiter who gets caught get "real" money equal to what he had printed when he gets out of jail?...NO!

I am somewhat on the fence about the debt eradication. I have done my best to live responsibly and am happy to say I have very little debt. However...as far as a system goes...this one is pretty broken now and band-aids and splints are only going to temporarily sustain it....I am pretty sure that collapse is unavoidable...

I have read some scholars that say that Capitalism, without tight controls, is a short lived proposition. We used to have tight controls, anti-trust and monopoly regulations. Somewhere in there, we allowed those to loosen and suddenly monstrosities like GE came to life...(pun intended). What these scholars said was that as time progresses and corporations like this can buy up more and more diversity and more and more of their competitors, all wealth begins to funnel to a very select few and those few control the wages AND the prices of products and therefore...well...you have a BIG problem.

Perhaps it really is time for a reset...no matter how bad it sounds or how much it's going to hurt...for the future of our children and posterity as a whole...maybe it just needs to be done and gotten over with before it's too late.

Just my opinion though.