CONFIRMED: Global Warming 'Ended 15 Years Ago'

Originally posted by kix
God I hate this GW threads, but here I go...

Our planet suffers from glacial periods for thousands of years FACT.
Nobody knows for sure what triggers them but 2 culprits seem to be the suns activity and the small fluctuations on earth´s orbit...
Prior to these glaciations there have been really hot climate worldwide.

Indeed it was very hot. Very very hot, as in alligators swimming in the Arctic hot.

Why?

Because way back then, most of the carbon which more recently is/had-been safely locked underground in coal, oil and gas, was in the atmosphere.

If we return to that state, what happens?

Originally posted by nixie_nox
reply to post by Questioneer05

 

Anyone who claims local weather events as a source of information should not be participating in global warming debates.

lol... that's right... but i have been traveling by years... i have been in a lot of places...

there isn't snow where it normally was... and there isnt that hot where it normally was... havent you noticed that??

I have always wondered about what effect the volcano's have on the weather/warming and cooling. I would think that one eruption would spew out more Co2 than all the cars in the USA could in several months. I would also think that the volcanoes have a big effect on the greenhouse gasses that are effecting our climate now and in the past, probably the very thing that started the last Ice Age, because we all know it was the human race, there were not enough of us around to do that. I agree with the cycle people here, the earth goes through cycles of warming and cooling, I don't have a clue what one we are in right now and don;t know if we as humans are contributing to it, personally I doubt it (that's just my own personal choice on it).

Originally posted by LucidDreamer85
reply to post by TrueAmerican

 

WOW ! everybody...seriously..

The earth can warm up and not have it be a man made thing.

It's called cycles....

They happened for millions of years before Earth even existed and we are acting like we know everything about everything.

We don't know everything about everything, but we do know somethings about somethings. We are typing here today because of the sustained efforts of scientific inquiry over the last 200 years. It just happens that scientists did not turn off their brains and understanding of chemistry and physics when it comes to the atmosphere of the Earth.

Stop acting smart and admit it. None of you know what is going on but it sure as hell isn't global warming.

Why do YOU know that? Sounds more like a typical rebellious teenage mind who is absolutely sure that everything somebody else says is BS.

Mark Twain once remarked being astonished at how between the time that he was 16 and 25 years old, his father had gotten SO much smarter! Funny thing that.

When something is constantly forced on you or pushed on your by others ....that is a red flag that much of that is probably false or deceptive in some way.
Learn something. get smart.

Better yet, get wise.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

So what! you made it sound like the temperature never even dropped.

The rather inconsequential part your referring to is this

This year, even being at solar max, the winter was uncommonly mild. Granted, I am in Florida, but even in florida we get a couple months of pretty cold weather...talking 50s. Its been stuck around 70s here...even getting up to 80 at times.

Actually I expected the opposite..(winters supposed to be getting more violently cold, summers hotter, gigantic snowstorms, etc) due to the destablization.

What I was saying is we haven't had a couple months (or even weeks) of cold..its been...ok, this night..and a month later.

But again, local weather doesn't really have much to do with anything. I am suprised it hasn't been a harsh winter, but I forgot this is a solar max year. That combined with the whole issue of less UV rays bouncing out and the atmospheric changes I guess is keeping the planet nice and warm.

The next 6 years, I predict, will be brutally cold winters (but shorter winters). Lots and lots of snow up north, and extended summers

in 11 years, I expect no winter. then in 17 years, perhaps the harshest winter we have faced..etc..aka, climate destablization.
The sun is influencing the pattern here. the question is, how do we reverse and stablize it. The glacial ice is retreating, we need to get those UVs bouncing away from earth again..any suggestions? (giant mirrors where the ice used to be?)

reply to post by SaturnFX

I know...right. I once owned a fish tank. I was like...man..look at all these fish. To think that they all died because I poured a cup of bleach in it..no way man..they all died because of nature, not the bleach. Totally egotistical of myself to think I can somehow effect a biosphere. I pump synthetic and damaging toxins into the biosystem..but because I am human, I simply cannot effect it negatively. This is clearly the truth. mhmm

So if you pour a cup of bleach in the ocean it will kill all the fish ? How does that work ?
I guess its all our fault! that big bright thing in the sky called the sun couldnt possibly doing anything!

Indeed...government being manipulated by science -shakes fist at a consensus of scientists- I prefer the normal ways..with government being manipulated by corporations.

ok, meant to say the government are getting scientist to say what they want by cherry picking the data, and telling the scientist to change it. But Im sure they would never do this because the government NEVER lies... right ?

Yes...bam...stupid science making corporations try to clean up...this is a non issue, because the people having to clean up said so in order to stop having to clean up. Why would they lie? (well, I mean, except for the trying to save a billion bucks for shareholders...but people wouldn't do that, cause nobody on earth is greedy) Corporations whom have to pay extra said science is wrong so they don't have to pay. Clearly its obvious who is right here...erm..corporations in case it wasn't clear. Don't believe that? then just listen to a politician stick up for them (just don't look at said politicians stock holdings..might get confused)

Clean up for what again ?
Its making us pay more, not the corporation. When the government taxes a company, the price gets increased and like we pay more....

HA! Take that Obama Trying to look at other avenues of energy! What an idiot..hahaha..I can't believe you want to get off oil!!! Wow, what a fool you are. Everyone knows that oil is the coolest most bestest energy source ever. Green energy..next you will be wanting to invest in cold fusion tech or something. bwahahaha. Serves you right also. You lost a bet. Everyone except for you whomever invests in something -always- makes a super duper profit with no risk. I can't believe it didn't work out perfetly. Silly Obama.

Investing a billion dollars of my money in something that is bound to fail, sounds great to me too ! Give more to Obama!!! whoo hoo!

Exactly...like government cars being swapped out for monster trucks, or maybe everyone in america gets a free 6 pack of tacos from taco bell!

Dont know, maybe obama can spend it on a new jumbo jet for him and his crew!

reply to post by SaturnFX


And since I moved here we never had a couple months of real cold. Maybe I am biased having moved from a place that had 18 below as a baseline.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by mbkennel

 

Well, increasingly extreme weather is just what you expect

Oh yes of course, it's so logical, as the hockey stick graph keeps going way way up, all the weather goes drastically up and down.

Do you understand that climate is a consequence of the laws of physics and thermodynamics and not a graph?

In fact, it's more likely to be the moon that has affected our climate in such a dramatic way, as it pulls away from the earth a bit every year, and scientists know that the moon helps stabilize earth.

WTF?

Why is it more likely that the moon has affected our climate in a dramatic way?

Please refer to physical mechanisms and attempt to quantify.

Originally posted by mcamp2011
I have always wondered about what effect the volcano's have on the weather/warming and cooling. I would think that one eruption would spew out more Co2 than all the cars in the USA could in several months.

Reagan said that

Categorically untrue...but it does look impressive when they erupt, doesn't it.

Consider a volcano..big belching smoke vomiting all up in the sky. Now consider the highways, roadways, etc etc etc...a vast network of little mini volcanos throughout the world endlessly pushing out emmissions.

Thing is, a volcano will eventually stop, cars keep chugging along..and lets not forget the coal plants, the homes burning fuels..basically its an endless simmer across the world of thinner toxins constantly rising from it.

A super volcano however may be different (that tends to blot out the sky), but, on a related note, look at big cities (such as London) at the start of the industrial era....the sun was blotted out there also around the city from industry. We have cleaned up a bit since then, but also spread out so it isn't as concentrated in any specific area.

We need a new energy source..or make better use of energy sources we have actually. The science is in, and speculating on it should have died 10 years ago. I am not a fan of the carbon tax, unless it is going specifically on open source clean and cheap energy alternatives (giant solar panel arrays in the desert connecting to the grid for instance), or lever turbines placed in all the highways to create energy whenever someone drives over it.

Make carbon based fuels a thing of the past. Oil will possibly never go away (need it for lube, plastics, etc), but we can stop the burning of it for direct fuel.

Originally posted by mbkennel

Originally posted by ClydeFrog42
reply to post by SquirrelNutz

 

No duh? Earths "climate" is something that is inherently subject to change. The climate is not some stagnant weather condition with any steady normalcy. The climate is always changing... always has been... always will be.

I dont think this is news to anybody? At least, anybody with an ounce of common sense.

Common sense is trumped by scientific data.

Over the last 10,000 years, global climate has been reasonably stable. This happens to be the period when human civilization arose.

There is of course always some fluctuation, but not in this time any large-scale global driver of change until humans started digging and burning coal.

edit on 30-1-2012 by mbkennel because: (no reason given)

So, then, I suppose correlation = causation??

Maybe, instead, theres a reason humanity sprung up in a time of relative stability of the sun &/or planet.... and that period is now over... hence the severity of change? Rather then negligible carbon emissions being trapped in our (i thought thinning?) atmosphere, being heated by an unchanging sun?

Doesn't the thread OP kind of throw dirt on the whole "man-made global warming" thing? There are forces out there that put humanity's affect on the atmosphere to shame. The Sun, billions of trees, natural gas leaks, earthquakes, volcanoes.... the list goes on.

Originally posted by R3KR
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

I know...right. I once owned a fish tank. I was like...man..look at all these fish. To think that they all died because I poured a cup of bleach in it..no way man..they all died because of nature, not the bleach. Totally egotistical of myself to think I can somehow effect a biosphere. I pump synthetic and damaging toxins into the biosystem..but because I am human, I simply cannot effect it negatively. This is clearly the truth. mhmm

So if you pour a cup of bleach in the ocean it will kill all the fish ? How does that work ?
I guess its all our fault! that big bright thing in the sky called the sun couldnt possibly doing anything!

This is a great example of being insulting, smug, sure that one is right, and yet in truth dangerously ignorant and unwilling to think deeply.

Yes, of course, one has to see if the greenhouse gas effect from humans is quantitatively significant on a global scale, the way that pouring a cup of bleach in the ocean is not significant.

Scientists have done this through *measurement*, and yes humans have increased the CO2 concentration from 280 ppm to nearly 400ppm now and it will go up substantially beyond that. If it had been 280ppm to 280.000001 then people would not be worried.

It's not like pouring a cup of bleach in the ocean, maybe like a few dozen Great Lakes. Don't you think scientists have actually tried to run the numbers first? (this happened a few decades ago)

And yes, that big bright thing in the sky certainly could be doing something. Which is why scientists have ALSO measured its properties with calibrated scientific instruments for decades and no it isn't changing that much or able to explain observations without adding in human greenhouse effects.

There are internal properties which distinguish increases in solar output from increased greenhouse effect like:

a) more sun would cause temperatures to rise more in the day vs at night, the greenhouse effect predicts the opposite.

b) more sun would cause more increases in the tropics, more greenhouse, increases in the polar regions.

c) more sun would cause heating throughout the atmosphere, more greenhouse, heating in lower parts and cooling in stratosphere.

d) more sun would show more output in visible energy from Sun, more greenhouse would show more reradiated infrared from atmosphere.

What do the observed data sets say?

a) greenhouse
b) greenhouse
c) greenhouse
d) greenhouse

imagine this, an car's engine, is it hot, isn't? well, now imagine millions of cars, some volcanos, imagine fabrics... imagine people burning things... this all togheter... does it all create hot? what does that hot?

now imagine this, the earth becoming cold... but there is this whole hot... what happened then? you think hot is our real trouble?

if you think about this, winter is more cold than before... in a lot of ways

See, this is the problem with all you fossil fuel addicts. You don't use common sense. Do you really believe that releasing unprecedented amounts of CO2 is having no effect? It doesn't take a climatologist to realize that when you release a ton of CO2 in the atmosphere at the same time striping more of the forests, the natural absorption will not keep pace and a greenhouse effect will occur. Period!

And so many of you get caught up in temperature numbers and don't look at the other effects. Like the fact that the ocean absorbs 42% of man made CO2 which is causing a PH imbalance. When the PH level drops to 7.9, the bottom of the food chain, like coral and plankton, die. That's a bit of a problem.

There are so many other problems with industrial waste than just rising temperatures. But whatever, just keep pushing all that waste on to future generations and pretend it's not happening. Awesome!

Originally posted by ClydeFrog42

Originally posted by mbkennel

Originally posted by ClydeFrog42
reply to post by SquirrelNutz

 

No duh? Earths "climate" is something that is inherently subject to change. The climate is not some stagnant weather condition with any steady normalcy. The climate is always changing... always has been... always will be.

I dont think this is news to anybody? At least, anybody with an ounce of common sense.

Common sense is trumped by scientific data.

Over the last 10,000 years, global climate has been reasonably stable. This happens to be the period when human civilization arose.

There is of course always some fluctuation, but not in this time any large-scale global driver of change until humans started digging and burning coal.

edit on 30-1-2012 by mbkennel because: (no reason given)

So, then, I suppose correlation = causation??

Maybe, instead, theres a reason humanity sprung up in a time of relative stability of the sun &/or planet.... and that period is now over... hence the severity of change? Rather then negligible carbon emissions being trapped in our (i thought thinning?) atmosphere, being heated by an unchanging sun?

Doesn't the thread OP kind of throw dirt on the whole "man-made global warming" thing? There are forces out there that put humanity's affect on the atmosphere to shame. The Sun, billions of trees, natural gas leaks, earthquakes, volcanoes.... the list goes on.

And so? If you have 5 cardiac patients come in with heart attacks from natural causes last week, and this week, will you diagnose your new patient the same, even though there's a bullet (and hole) on the X-ray?


What evidence do you have that these other forces are

a) larger than humanity's effect
and
b) that they are operating now,
and
c) that they overwhelm humanity's effect
and
d) there is new physics that somehow is counteracting the currently known physics and observed effect

You need specific mechanisms, observational evidence and theoretical consistency stronger than the current understanding. not just "well, maybe it's the fungus's fault!" random ramblings.

Note that greenhouse warming from human changes in atmosphere is a specific mechanistic cause, not correlation, backed by extremely solid chemistry & physics verified in the lab.

what those mudducks call global warming is actually earth's natural cycle, its all a lie that we caused earth's changes, rofl.

Originally posted by mbkennel

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by mbkennel

 

Well, increasingly extreme weather is just what you expect

Oh yes of course, it's so logical, as the hockey stick graph keeps going way way up, all the weather goes drastically up and down.

Do you understand that climate is a consequence of the laws of physics and thermodynamics and not a graph?

In fact, it's more likely to be the moon that has affected our climate in such a dramatic way, as it pulls away from the earth a bit every year, and scientists know that the moon helps stabilize earth.

WTF?

Why is it more likely that the moon has affected our climate in a dramatic way?

AGW is the proponent of the Hockey Stick graph. mmmhmmm and you are busting me over it.

And yes, did you not see the science tv thing I posted? I also saw it on the History Channel. You want me to find more references?

Originally posted by R3KR
So if you pour a cup of bleach in the ocean it will kill all the fish ? How does that work ?
I guess its all our fault! that big bright thing in the sky called the sun couldnt possibly doing anything!

Lets have 3 billion people pour a cup of bleach into the ocean..what happens? nothing much
do it again..say 3 cups a day
do this for, oh..30 years straight..

You will eventually reach a tipping point where it does effect the particles per million and consequences do happen.

Now, the sun..cycles..yes, that dictates much..such as how many rays are being put out, etc. But the sun is on a 11 year cycle. has been since..god knows when
Tell me why we don't have a desert planet one year, then 6 years later we are in an ice age. This is because our biosphere has the ability to counter and stablize the system to an extent. Yes, we have greater cycles (ice age, warming, etc). This is all natural..not many are saying it isn't

The discussion going on is simple.
How much (if any) of the current cycle, that is clearly going incredibly fast, is a consequence from changing the makeup of the biosphere we are living in?
how can we alter it to become stable again (if possible)?
and what happens if we do nothing?

The first step is for us to cut back or stop the proverbial pouring bleach into the ocean to see if that can at least buy us some time, of not reverse the whole mess..
The second comes when the first doesn't seem to do the trick...and we need to invent our way out
and the third..well, that is the most important question really. speculate on what happens if we literally do nothing...be it manmade or not..what options do we have?

1) we do nothing - nothing happens = sweet
2) We do nothing - something happens = saved money and we feel like idiots wandering a wasteland as extinction comes (we also use the climate change deniers as a fuel source)
3) We do something - nothing happens = lost some money, but we saved ourselves.
4) we do something - something happens = lost some money, we tried, but it was too big. Investments may prolong our lives with alternative fuels to continue existing.

there is only one double negative there..and that is doing nothing. Why then would we want to do nothing? Who saves the money? only the biggest corporate entities that pollute and poison our biosphere. Why do we care about them again?

Originally posted by radiotracker350
what those mudducks call global warming is actually earth's natural cycle, its all a lie that we caused earth's changes, rofl.

I will listen to the wisdom of anyone whom uses "rofl" as their point of debate.
mhmm.

(is school out?)

Originally posted by Reflection
See, this is the problem with all you fossil fuel addicts. You don't use common sense. Do you really believe that releasing unprecedented amounts of CO2 is having no effect? It doesn't take a climatologist to realize that when you release a ton of CO2 in the atmosphere at the same time striping more of the forests, the natural absorption will not keep pace and a greenhouse effect will occur. Period!

And so many of you get caught up in temperature numbers and don't look at the other effects. Like the fact that the ocean absorbs 42% of man made CO2 which is causing a PH imbalance. When the PH level drops to 7.9, the bottom of the food chain, like coral and plankton, die. That's a bit of a problem.

There are so many other problems with industrial waste than just rising temperatures. But whatever, just keep pushing all that waste on to future generations and pretend it's not happening. Awesome!

No, you are missing the point. NO ONE is denying the environmental damage that modern life is inflicting on the earth. People are disagreeing with the scientific studies that posit AGW - Anthropomorphic global warming.

The effects you list are ENVIRONMENTAL effects.

reply to post by Reflection


No one wants to admit they are part of the problem. I would never support a carbon tax, though. The simple fact we exhale out CO2 is proof of natural occurance. I do agree with you continuous pollution and fuel-burning can't continue.
The deisel engine is obsolete but the companies with all the money will not let go. Too much power/influence.

When they actually do produce an electric car like the leaf, it ends up looking like the leaf and no one is interested. It's a power struggle we are losing.

But if we're talking about the present-day here in New York it's in the low 40's today and said to be mid to high 50's by Wednesday. Usually in end of January it's high 20's low 30's now. We have had one dusting of snow this winter. Last year we were buried in snow all winter.

I don't believe we are causing crazy spikes in temps. I do believe our pollution is and has been destroying the Earth for some time now. Hard to deny.