This is why the occupy movement MUST BE STOPPED!!!

“I am amazed that Congressme­n can pass a bill imposing severe penalties on anyone who burns the American flag, whereas they are responsibl­e for burning that for which the flag stands: the United States as a territory, as a people, and as a biological manifestat­ion. That is an example of our perennial confusion of symbols with realities.

And they put this law through with a great deal of patriotic oratory, ignoring the fact entirely that these same congressme­n, by acts of commission or omission, are burning up that for which the flag stands. They are allowing the utter pollution of our waters, of our atmosphere­, the devastatio­n of our forests."

- Alan Watts

reply to post by seeker1963

Do I know an answer to all of this? NO,,,,,,I do not. I am fearful to say, that the only thing I see that may change the condition of where we have traveled to, is unfortunately violence and uprising. With that being said, we will never be successful, unless we can work together and point our frustrations at the cause rather than each other.

So you say the election process won’t work, people are brainwashed, YOU don’t have any answers, so your conclusion is….PROTEST and VIOLENCE?

If you have no answer then why the rush to violence? What will the aftermath look like, or have you not thought it through that far yet?

OWS needs to get a point…stay on point…remain peaceful….and deliver a message to create positive change. Nothing OWS has done so far has been positive...the only things OWS has promoted are hate and destruction.

Originally posted by Patchman
you know its not considered illegal to burn a flag right?

I know it is considered disrespectful to let it touch the ground.

This coming from someone who sat down during the National Anthem at a Cardinal baseball game to protest the Vietnam war.

Originally posted by Feltrick

Originally posted by ClydeFrog42
reply to post by popsmayhem

 

In some cases, violence is necessary...

"we attempt to form a strong political base based in the community with the only strength that we have and thats the strength of a potentially destructive force If we don’t get freedom.”
-Huey Newton

But, violence for the sake of violence shall never persevere. The OWS movement lost the sympathy of the public due to its lack of coherent message and violent attitude. If, they would have put forth a coherent reason for their actions and, more importantly, showed a viable solution, their base would have swelled.

But, they did little more than cause a nuisance, pitch a tent on a sidewalk and crap in a plastic bag. They no longer represent those hurt by the percieved actions, or in actions, of this government. They failed from the start.

Its not always possible to form a coherent message with a wide, all inclusive movement like OW. That doesnt mean that they aren't a valuble tool for social upheaval and change.

Many of you, who take this "Occupy Wallstreet is useless and childish" stance should read into Polands Solidarity movement in the 80s.

They never had a particularly coherent message. There was no ultimatum. Just a group of politically motivated people recruiting those who were against the status-quo.

Now, solidarity is considered one of the most politically mature movements in the 20th century.

In the 1980s, Solidarity was a broad anti-bureaucratic social movement, using the methods of civil resistance to advance the causes of workers' rights and social change.
en.wikipedia.org...(Polish_trade_union)

Sound familiar? Need any more direction then that? Or are we now just criticizing the movement from behind our keyboards because we remain faceless? Must take a lot of nerve...

I believe OW is a step in the right direction. It might not gain the same traction as Solidarity, but the principles are the same. We are living under a system that is increasingly oppressive, and there needs to be a catalyst for major change. OW is a protest, and protests aren't always about sticking a flower in the barrel of a gun.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is living in a fairytale. Its easy to condemn a legitimate movement when you think it will get you a couple stars.... rife with hypocrisy, ATS is!

Originally posted by Patchman
you know its not considered illegal to burn a flag right?

Please show me the legislation deeming the act of burning the flag illegal. Honestly, this whole thread is a right wing circle jerk. Freedom isn't only for the things you approve of. I've wasted enough time here. On to to other threads where hopefully the minds are more open and less indoctrinated.

Originally posted by seabag

So you say the election process won’t work, people are brainwashed, YOU don’t have any answers, so your conclusion is….PROTEST and VIOLENCE?

When:

a political party hires a programmer to hack voting machines who offers sworn testimony in open court that he wrote and delivered the code and

when for the first time in modern history vote totals no longer match exit polls.....and

When the supreme court has to decide our President when no court case was eligible for their review....

I have to say the election process won't work.

You offer no rebuttle to facts sir. You just write that your point is true because you typed it so. I asked for arguments and received rhetoric.

Originally posted by popsmayhem

And the OWS protesters yet again show their true intentions.

First they are burning an American flag, and if you notice the black protester, he has the sign of the closed fist.

Many OWS protesters, in their ignorance, claim that their OWS movement has nothing to do with socialism, and or communism, or with rich socialists/communists, and yes they exist, nor with leftwing organizations which have been partners and founders of the OWS movement. But as some other members and I have shown in the past, this is simply not true.

I did a search when the OWS movement was kind of getting strength in numbers, and found that many of the leaders of these groups, and their organizations used logos which are socialist/communist despite the claims from OWS protesters that this is not true.




www.lewrockwell.com...


news.anon210.com...


Shame, in the above you can't see the pretty RED words...
occupywallst.org...

Everywhere I look your movement has very similar logos to socialist/communist logos... I wonder why?...

Perhaps they have something to do with logos like the following?...

Malaysian socialists clenched-fist logo approved

links.org.au...

Socialist Fist Logos










Soviet Fist

www.neofactionapparel.com...

Yeah, the OWS movement has NOTHING to do with socialism/communism and the desire for a One World Socialist Regime, right?...

What the OWS movement in general want to protest is for the destruction of the Republic of the United States in favor for a socialist nation...

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Yeah, the OWS movement has NOTHING to do with socialism/communism and the desire for a One World Socialist Regime, right?...

That's right. It doesn't. It's a bunch of uncoordinated people who want their country back.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
What the OWS movement in general want to protest is for the destruction of the Republic of the United States in favor for a socialist nation...

You may actually be right. If Lobbyists continue to hijack democracy, and politicians don't heed their constituents, what else could the end result be?

".....It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace-- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!....."

God bless Patrick Henry

Originally posted by Zaanny
I spent many hours a few months back watching the occupy wall street movement in N.Y.C. and those protestors were totally putting out a positive vibe...

When I was watching last night the only feeling I got was these people are not the same, they were looking to break into a " vacant " building to " occupy " for a " community " space.

That just sounds like wanting to commit breaking and entering.....

Then I saw people running all over Oakland chanting "F" the police....

Then I saw them burn the national flag and that was enough.....

I can understand being upset about the current conditions but to disgrace the flag that GENERATIONS of Americans have fought for and lost their lives for you to express your displeasure is very sickening.

I can understand flying the flag upside down to show that the country is in distress but to burn it is WAY past the line.

I hate this notion of "OH MY GOD THEY BURNED THE FLAG" or " MY DADDY FOUGHT FOR THAT FLAG"
*wimper - whine * gag!

That exact flag? - I am sure they bought it at K-Mart for 3 bucks.

THE CONSTITUTION, GIVES YOU THE RIGHT TO -- get ready for this....



BURN THE #ING FLAG!

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


So what if Communists and Socialists are part of the movement? Are they not part of the 99%?

Its not like Stalin and his posse are protesting in Zuccotti park. These are people with different political motivations who are perfectly entitled to an opinion.

Nobody is denying that this is the type of movement that socialists might be taken by. Just like nobodies denying that the fist and colours are akin to all manner of Soviet propaganda.

At this point, its not the communists that are the problem...

Originally posted by ClydeFrog42
At this point, its not the communists that are the problem...

You're right, we really need to get rid of these fascists right now and worry about the commi threat later.

reply to post by ClydeFrog42


Thanks for bringing up the Solidarity Movement in Poland! They had a coherent message: the overthrow of the communist regime! They had a leader: Lec walesa! Two very important things the OWS hasn't got! I remember seeing them march arm in arm and the communist regime beating them and shooting water cannons at them, but they kept marching.

Huge difference from the "100s" who show up at OWS rallies who are more interested in being a nuisance to people who are working to feed their families!

One last item, are you seriously comparing the plight of the Poles to your lives? Honestly? Those who were arrested in Poland were not freed in a few hours, they didn't just get a fine, they didn't even know what Due Process was. No, they were thrown into a cell and beaten, sometimes killed, under a brutal dictatorship. IT DOESN'T COMPARE!!!!

Edit to add: " Anyone who thinks otherwise is living in a fairytale. Its easy to condemn a legitimate movement when you think it will get you a couple stars.... rife with hypocrisy, ATS is!"

Really? So people only oppose this "movement" for stars? Come on!

They are burning the flag because America and freedom are not what they used to be, and the people in power are letting it happen.
Im Canadian and even i can see that.

Point is, we are all slaves. Some might be too brainwashed to see it by all the media, but some people are not.
And those people realise that true freedom and change can only be taken by force, and by any means neccesary.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


heh, I find your post funny, mainly because of your assumptions.

We had a guy in our Occupy who made some posters, one of them had the fist, we asked him why he choose that and if he knew what that meant... he had no clue about it and just used it as some other Occupy's did, he learnt and wont do it again.

But if someone like you saw the poster they'd think "communists" and run the other way, when the "evil communist" in our group is a nerdy university student who might need to punch a fly 4 times to kill it and who actually hates communism and socialism and thought the fist was symbolism for something else.

But hey, he used the fist on a poster, so he MUST be a communist right?

And yes Occupy has to do with Communism/Socialism... and believe it or not, Capitalism, Marxism, Anarchism, etc... why? BECAUSE OCCUPY IS FULL OF PEOPLE FROM ALL WALKS IN LIFE! so yes, you will find people who claim to be all of the above and you will also find gays, Satanists, Christians, Muslims, hippies... heck even Jedi's I am sure.

This is just divide and conquer at work... if I was a leader I'd be like superhorny right now seeing the divide on these forums.

I fully support Occupy Oakland and hope it grows even larger. They are right next to City Hall which gets good exposure and is part of the Government as well.

it is blatantly clear that our government is owned by the moneyed interests in this country, wherein, these moneyed interests, not only buy politicians, but have become politicians themselves.

So there is nowhere to go except to protest and get in the spotlight in order to raise the awareness of those still asleep on what is going on in our government.

One thing that puzzles me though about some of the people against these occupy movements.

I will not name any names, but many of them I have seen in other threads are pro violence when in comes to Iran and any other campaign our military is involved in, but when it comes to protesters, they intentionally single out the few involved in violence as if they represent the whole.

I would think those against the occupy movements would be focusing on other aspects rather than violence, since they are an advocate for it when it comes to the military.

Please explain this apparent contradiction, in how they can advocate peaceful means in getting the corruption out of our government, and turn around support violence that this same government is using as a tool to get their way through the world?

It's funny how in times of economic downturn, all the fascists and commies come out of the woodwork, each preaching that their message is the correct and only one.

A regular old capitalist system was doing just fine for years. We don't need all this crazy stuff, we need proper capitalism, and all those people that are making the system suck need to be dealt with.

Get rid of lobbyists in Washington, and put Glass Steagall right back where it was. Then try to strengthen the manufacturing sector and shift the economy away from consumerism. Problem solved.

I always felt that the sentiment was well intentioned but the direction wont accomplish anything. Why would the one percent care if a bunch of people are camped out in a park for months on end? It already happens, they are called the homeless, and they aren't causing the owners of the country to suddenly develop compassion. If you want to effect change on the oligarchy, you boycott anything that affects their bottom line. If you don't like predatory capitalism, STOP SUPPORTING IT. Don't buy their goods. Remember a few years back when the video was leaked of the tuna fishermen killing all the dolphins? People stopped buying tuna in droves and it forced the tuna industry to take steps to not kill so many dolphins. Now, if those very same people had sat outside Star Kist headquarters beating a bongo drum till the cows came home, I would imagine there would be a lot less dolphin in the world than there are now. Their language is MONEY not idealism. IF you want to see a change in the world, that's the language you need speak to them in. As it is a "market" the market is greatly affected if suddenly a million people decide they are not going to buy anything made by say, the Koch brothers. I bet a few months of no revenues would change their tune pretty fast. You may say, they are rich, they can hold out. Thats true to an extent, but a financial empire costs money to maintain and a big loss of revenue from a product boycott can have a huge impact, don't kid yourself. So think with your heads, not your hearts. Oh, and one last thing, communism is NOT the answer. It doesn't work, that is why Russia and China abandoned it (China is now the most capitalist country on Earth). Joseph Stalin for example, killed more people than Hitler Capitalism is sometimes nasty, its mean, but it has the benefit of giving the best standard of living on Earth. It just has to be regulated so it stays within limits that allow the greatest number of people to benefit. Thats the opposite of what we have now, but we can fix it.

reply to post by openminded2011


Your idea would only work if all these 1% were independent business's, but since their connected to the hip with the government, they can get bailed out as has already happened, or get government contracts, at tax payers expense to continue the looting.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Yeah, the OWS movement has NOTHING to do with socialism/communism and the desire for a One World Socialist Regime, right?...

What the OWS movement in general want to protest is for the destruction of the Republic of the United States in favor for a socialist nation...

edit on 31-1-2012 by ElectricUniverse because: (no reason given)

You've just correctly identified the main reason why I haven't had any direct involvement with Occupy at all, nor will I in the future. Contrary to what the useful idiots of the Socialist Alliance think, socialism makes David Rockefeller smile.

International federalism is the one thing which socialists have always aimed for; and there's this other organisation that has wanted the same thing for quite some time now, coincidentally enough. They call themselves the New World Order.

Probably just a harmless coincidence, though.

It's time Occupy get a leader... Someone who can keep them under control and they need to stop going on random streets. They should all do a nation wide march toward the white house and protest just like the million man march the problem is congress passing bad law not the radio shack down the street or America. I LOVE America I love the very idea it represents but I do not love the people running it. Like someone said on here already I think the public needs to start making public arrests.