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Atlantis, the evidence, a Timewatch special.

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posted on Jan, 29 2012 @ 07:01 PM
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Originally posted by Parta

who is wasting peoples time? you say that map... that stops at 12kya.... has something to do with pottery? no it doesn't... hans hasn't even looked at the map. i can tell by the stats. hehe hans. ur funny.


You mean this one that I posted before, of course I looked at it - the question is have you? It doesn't support your story, so please stop telling your little fibs eh? lol




the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia
Please address how this map of a European cultures supports an invasion from Atlantis in the Atlantic ocean- the EG don't even cover the areas plato writes about

Please explain how this picture shows that the 'Atlanteans' did what Plato wrote in his story?



in regard to pelagos that links says
3. flooded plain, γίνεται π. Hdt.2.97, cf. 3.117.
the other link uses the word pelagos for every instance of the "atlantic ocean". its not a waste of time. its proof.
you show me your link that says tufts university is wrong.


Sorry it doesn't say that

This link you put up

Parta's link

It doesn't say anything in English, the same for the other link; perhaps you should try a screen capture and put up that image of it saying Pelagos means exclusively flood plain' and not sea or deep sea - can you do that?

As you don't seem to have a link to support your contention

Pelgaos means deep sea


the sea stuff is me musing about what you obviously don't know of the world


I think you mean word, and yes I can look it up just like you, it means sea - if not provide a online source in English that says otherwise why don't you do that instead of dodging the question?



... yet you carry on as some great expert.



Compared to you, that might apply


noone that ever had an opinion on atlantis knew there was a sea in the centre of europe therefore their knowledge of the world at the time of is incomplete. so what? plato says its in europe himeslf. what else on a map of his world is as big as asia and libya combined. he's laughin. me too.


No he says its in the Atlantic, read T & C very very carefully...lol, but then you seem to think the story he wrote is real - then if you think Atlantis is up in central Europe - why can't it be found? Is there an evil conspiracy to hide it?


noone westerner [but me] had ever been to a museum to see all the artifacts. the east has never been with the west hans.


Oh are you actually claiming that 'x' museum has never been visited by a European? So where is this wonderous museum of the East? I do hate to break it to you but Europe is the West.... I've been to Budapest and the Czech Republic - what are you on about really? You make no sense at all


noone knows whats on the ground in middle europe, certainly not you


No, I can read about it something you should try


.... noone knows even to the point that a city thats bigger than rome can be sitting clearly with its huge wall visible obviously right from the hiway. nothing should surprise us.


Which scientists found and described and which we all can read about - you seem to be terribly confused and muddled up in your thinking







edit on 29/1/12 by Hanslune because: (no reason given)




posted on Jan, 29 2012 @ 07:28 PM
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reply to post by Hanslune
 


muddled? you aren't looking at maps, don't know a thing about geography, anthropology, genetics or mythology and i'm muddled?

thats the map. now you've looked. what isn't covered by plato? the pillares of hercules were not at gibraltar. they were on the freshwater sea okeanos potamos.plato says nothing about the atlantic ocean. that is very clear. pelgaos as it applies to plato is what did you say? some seamount thing?

that link takes you to the selection of lexicons in which to see the definition of pelagos. click on lsj since its the first and presto... pelagos:flooded plain. sorry hans. i thought you could figure that out. i guess you've never been to perseus before but since you know your plato in greek i thought maybe you had. you can click back and forth between grrek and english you know. thought you could figure that out.

the largest city visible from the hiway is written about in antiquity mag by the past president of the european archaeological society anthony harding. he shot down the bosnian pyramids you might recall but he digs iarcuri now. read the article. it is 1782hectares inside the wall and rome was 1400hectares inside the wall.

i can show you atlantis in googlemaps and on the soil map of europe. its plain as the nose on your face [so says the national geological institute of romania]. you have better credentials than them?

want to see?



posted on Jan, 29 2012 @ 08:01 PM
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Originally posted by Parta
reply to post by Hanslune
 


muddled? you aren't looking at maps, don't know a thing about geography, anthropology, genetics or mythology and i'm muddled?


Yes very much so, but I do seem to know more than you I also know that when you start to lose a debate you started throwing insults - and man you started losing early, lol.



thats the map. now you've looked. what isn't covered by plato? the pillares of hercules were not at gibraltar. they were on the freshwater sea okeanos potamos.plato says nothing about the atlantic ocean. that is very clear. pelgaos as it applies to plato is what did you say? some seamount thing?




So do you know where Egypt is, Tyrrhenia? Is Europe covered by the EG (the brown colour) from the columns of Hercules to those points - why are they in Greece, Plato tells us they were defeated, the EG lived there for hundreds to thousands of years, please explain?

Here is what Plato said


This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable


That seems to be mention of the Atlantic ocean to me what do you consider it?


that link takes you to the selection of lexicons in which to see the definition of pelagos. click on lsj since its the first and presto... pelagos:flooded plain. sorry hans. i thought you could figure that out. i guess you've never been to perseus before but since you know your plato in greek i thought maybe you had. you can click back and forth between grrek and english you know. thought you could figure that out.


Oh now we see what you were trying to hide by not giving a direct link, of course it won't direct link but you didn't explain that hoping no one would look...tsk tsk

So its a ONE possible meaning out of how many Parta? I see seven associations with the sea and one for 'flooded plain' so why does this one mention out ruled the others? LOL oh wait that is what you want it to mean isn't it?



and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent. Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia. This vast power, gathered into one, endeavoured to subdue at a blow our country and yours and the whole of the region within the straits;



It seems to say real sea and etc, what are on about? Are you claiming the Atlantic is a 'flooded plain' instead of a sea?


i can show you atlantis in googlemaps and on the soil map of europe. its plain as the nose on your face [so says the national geological institute of romania]. you have better credentials than them?

want to see?


You've shown us that numbers of times, over and over - it hasn't improved with age nor been supported by evidence, and its been pointed out to you what the flaw is with the 'Geological Institute of Roumania' claim is before, what is it now 4 years - have they produced any actual evidence yet? If not why not, has Mircea Ticleanu found anything yet?

Now tell us about this museum only you have seen - where is it Parta? Why do you think Central Europe is the 'East' and that nobody can go there, please explain
edit on 29/1/12 by Hanslune because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 29 2012 @ 08:47 PM
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Originally posted by Hanslune


Yes very much so, but I do seem to know more than you I also know that when you start to lose a debate you started throwing insults - and man you started losing early, lol



what insults. it seems i cannot present current orthodox information to you that you had no idea existed. whats your game? thought you were into new discoveries. you called me muddled. i think you started it.



Originally posted by Hanslune
here is the map

Here is what Plato said


This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable


That seems to be mention of the Atlantic ocean


the text says This power came forth out of the pelagos of atlas. the dictionary says i can say This power came forth out of the the flooded plain of atlas. since herodotus et al say the pillars of hercules are on okeanos potamos and thats a freshwater sea i guess your salty atlantic ocean is excluded. plato says "what you greeks call the pillars of hercules" well the greeks said they were on a freshwater sea. a great freshwater sea filled the middle danube basin at the time of atlantis and people descended upon the world exactly as plato said. i can show you atlantis. thats what a european union nation geological institute says.


Originally posted by Hanslune
Oh now we see what you were trying to hide by not giving a direct link


i thought thats where i sent you. sorry. not trying to hide anything.


Originally posted by Hanslune
So its a ONE possible meaning out of how many Parta? I see associations with the sea and one for 'flooded plain' so why does this one mention out ruled the others? LOL oh wait that is what you want it to mean isn't it?


well actually there are 2. salt water and freshwater. its a dictionary. either works but you can say either.


Originally posted by Hanslune

It seems to say real sea and etc, what are on about?


did i not link to a map of the sea in middle europe earlier? i guess you have to see its relation to the retreating glaciers etc. if you crossed okeanos you could sail right out into the atlantic or back into the med by 2 ways. its exactly correct as plato wrote it.


Originally posted by Hanslune

You've shown us that numbers of times, over and over - it hasn't improved with age nor been supported by evidence, and its been pointed out to you what the flaw is with the 'Geological Institute of Roumania' claim is before, what is it now 4 years - have they produced any actual evidence yet? If not why not?

Now tell us about this museum only you have seen - where is it Parta? Why do you think Central Europe is the 'East' and that nobody can go there, please explain


i do not believe i have shown atlantis in here. show me where i did.

what magical museum. i think the subject was pottery and the fact that egyptian black topped pottery is from the danube where it began with the starcevo. it exists in most museums in the west of romania. science said black topped pottery was invented in egypt 1000years later and it heralded the great leap. now that they have cimec [combines all the museums] they can change many things including this. it shows them predynastic idols, arrowheads and other things.

the new york times says scientists didn't know anything about central europe. did you know? its important because plato says atlantis was in the center of europe on the freshwater sea that was there.



posted on Jan, 30 2012 @ 03:42 AM
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reply to post by Parta
 



Originally posted by Parta
what insults.


lol


it seems i cannot present current orthodox information to you that you had no idea existed. whats your game?


Then why all the attacks – you have no idea what you are talking about – your argument is weak and has been for four years, you always start with trying to belittle people instead of convince them, try to debate properly or as I did in the past I’ll just ignore you


thought you were into new discoveries. you called me muddled. i think you started it.


I’m into new stuff, your stuff is four years old and you keep going over it over and over again. Yes your presentation of idea is unfortunately muddled, disjointed and missing information. You cannot even link properly

i thought thats where i sent you. sorry. not trying to hide anything.


Of course you’re not, apology accepted. However you still have a problem; that pelagos stands for sea in almost all cases and I don’t see how the Atlantic can be considered a flooded plain – do you?


well actually there are 2. salt water and freshwater. its a dictionary. either works but you can say either.


Three choices, the last and least used is yours


did i not link to a map of the sea in middle europe earlier? i guess you have to see its relation to the retreating glaciers etc. if you crossed okeanos you could sail right out into the atlantic or back into the med by 2 ways. its exactly correct as plato wrote it.


A very poor quality one where none of this information isnoted, pointed to or explained, ie muddled – however did you forget this quote from Critias:


To his twin brother, who was born after him, and obtained as
his lot the extremity of the island towards the Pillars of Heracles,
facing the country which is now called the region of Gades in that
part of the world


Where is Gades Parta?

How does that quote meet up with your earlier comment


the pillares of hercules were not at gibraltar.



i do not believe i have shown atlantis in here. show me where i did.


What is here? Yes you have constantly referred to this theory over the past years


what magical museum.


The one you said westerner didn’t go to and you did; right here


noone westerner [but me] had ever been to a museum to see all the artifacts. the east has never been with the west hans.


So where is this magic museum? What does it contain?


the new york times says scientists didn't know anything about central europe. did you know? its important because plato says atlantis was in the center of europe on the freshwater sea that was there.


Of course they do, give us a link. Plato doesn’t say that, YOU say that and very few people seem to agree with you

Oh you had previously claimed there was another earlier lost Athens under the Saronic plains. Nope in the story Plato wrote it is about the classical Athens we know and love and which didn’t exist at the time of Plato story occurring – ie he made it up


But in primitive times the hill of the Acropolis extended
to the Eridanus and Ilissus, and included the Pnyx on one side, and
the Lycabettus as a boundary on the opposite side to the Pnyx, and was
all well covered with soil, and level at the top, except in one or two
places. Outside the Acropolis and under the sides of the hill there
dwelt artisans, and such of the husbandmen as were tilling the
ground near; the warrior class dwelt by themselves around the
temples of Athene and Hephaestus at the summit, which moreover they
had enclosed with a single fence like the garden of a single house


That’s a description of the Athen’s Acropolis and environs, rather detailed too

So why hasn’t that Romanian guy FOUND Atlantis yet? The place was 525 by 350 kilometer – big city, tons of artifacts and he hasn’t found anything yet? The foot print of the Minoan, Sumer and Harappa were easy to detect why is this civilization so difficult? The Atlantean fleet consisted of 1,200 ships that should have deforested there lands and will show in sediments - does it?

What about this?


and the largest of the harbours were full of vessels and merchants coming from all parts


Strange isn't it that no 'Atlantean' trade goods have been found 'in all parts', no wrecked ships, nada


edit on 30/1/12 by Hanslune because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 30 2012 @ 05:57 AM
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reply to post by Hanslune
 


so where did i put up all pictures of atlantis? you said i did again and again. thats dishonest.

you said pelagos didn't mean flooded plain. you were wrong.

you didn't know a sea filled the middle danube until i told you. you are ill informed.

you didn't know about iarcuri the biggest city in the ancient world until i told you and you're the great expert.

you didn't know the epigravettians did what plato said atlanteans did. what should the map look like that proves it?

noone knew about black topped pottery.

what is your input? i don't see any information just little nasty quips


oh i'm sorry. i actually read the rest of your post. gades is where the pen of geryon is. geryon is poseidons grandson. the vara i showed you is the pen of geryon.


edit on 30-1-2012 by Parta because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 30 2012 @ 07:15 AM
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Originally posted by micpsi
reply to post by VelvetSplash
 



How about listening to what Plato actually said? He located Atlantis to the west of the Pillars of Hercules (Straits of Gibralta), that is, in the Atlantic Ocean - NOT hundreds of miles east off the coast of Greece!

It simply won't cut it to cherry-pick the evidence to suit your beliefs and ignore what Plato actually said about the civilisation of Atlantis. Just because some powerful volcano erupted in the past and created a tsunami is not enough to be the origin of Plato's story. You just cannot choose what you want to believe about Plato's account and dismiss the rest because it does not fit whatt we BELIEVE is history. Why would he have located the event so far away in some imaginary place? The Minoan eruption is just one of the dozens of hypothetical sources for the Atlantis myth proposed by academics wishing to rid themselves of an akward, historical enigma. None of them stand up because they are not located where Plato said the disaster occurred. Now, if you want to argue that he invented the location, just as he did the rest of the details about Atlantis, then you are ignoring the fact that this "myth" was not fabricated by him but existed long before he referred to it in his books.


In fact, there exists no "myth of Atlantis" prior to what Plato wrote. None whatsoever.

The correlation with Thera could be due to Plato using what he knew about Thera in his tale. However, there's no evidence that Plato - or any other Greek from Plato's time - knew anything at all about the eruption of Thera.

You are quite right about the cherry-picking.

Thus, Plato actually did fabricate the story. And why not? He wasn't, after all, an historian and his dialogues were not written for the sake of preserving any history.

harte



posted on Jan, 30 2012 @ 07:21 AM
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Originally posted by Harte


In fact, there exists no "myth of Atlantis" prior to what Plato wrote. None whatsoever.

The correlation with Thera could be due to Plato using what he knew about Thera in his tale. However, there's no evidence that Plato - or any other Greek from Plato's time - knew anything at all about the eruption of Thera.

You are quite right about the cherry-picking.

Thus, Plato actually did fabricate the story. And why not? He wasn't, after all, an historian and his dialogues were not written for the sake of preserving any history.

harte


the vendidad and its tale of yima and the varas was published before platos c or t and plato was accused of plagiarizing it. are you defending plato by saying he made it up instead of copying it?

the story of yima is also the story of enki and the abzu and his bolts, its also ra and his hidden circles and the god pen.
edit on 30-1-2012 by Parta because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 30 2012 @ 07:29 AM
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Originally posted by Parta
the text says This power came forth out of the pelagos of atlas. the dictionary says i can say This power came forth out of the the flooded plain of atlas.

I'd like to see this translation from someone other than yourself.

I've found where pelagos can also mean "trial," as in an arduous task/event (IOW, not the "judicial" sense of trial.)

I've yet to see your useage anywhere.

Not saying it isn't so, but in Plato's time, "pelagos" not only meant sea, it meant the deep sea.

Harte



posted on Jan, 30 2012 @ 07:33 AM
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Originally posted by Harte

I'd like to see this translation from someone other than yourself.

I've found where pelagos can also mean "trial," as in an arduous task/event (IOW, not the "judicial" sense of trial.)

I've yet to see your useage anywhere.

Not saying it isn't so, but in Plato's time, "pelagos" not only meant sea, it meant the deep sea.

Harte


yeah i sent you to perseus last time and you said tufts was wrong i believe.

pelagos as a flooded lake is from herodotus as per the listing at perseus



posted on Jan, 30 2012 @ 07:34 AM
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Originally posted by thedoctorswife

Originally posted by ForAllMyDeadHomies
Aww, I live in the states. This is a topic that heavily interests me, could you possibly record it?

edit on 28-1-2012 by ForAllMyDeadHomies because: (no reason given)


I imagine it'l be youtubed eventually, its rather good, and its being presented by "shock horror " a woman scientist.


The programme has already been aired a year or so ago - Yes shock horror a Woman presenter.
It is well worth a watch but does not find any 100% proof but does provide very compelling evidence.
I actually beleive it is not a far fetched idea that Atlantis existed. I find it harder to believe that no such prior civilization existed - But I guess I believe what I believe.



posted on Jan, 30 2012 @ 07:42 AM
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Originally posted by Parta
yeah i sent you to perseus last time and you said tufts was wrong i believe.

pelagos as a flooded lake is from herodotus as per the listing at perseus


As Hans pointed out, that translation doesn't appear on the perseus page you linked so, no.

So far, all we have is "trial" and "deep sea."

Harte



posted on Jan, 30 2012 @ 07:46 AM
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Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by Parta
yeah i sent you to perseus last time and you said tufts was wrong i believe.

pelagos as a flooded lake is from herodotus as per the listing at perseus


As Hans pointed out, that translation doesn't appear on the perseus page you linked so, no.

So far, all we have is "trial" and "deep sea."

Harte


hans found it. he said i was trying to hide it. so somehow i'm the villain for hiding the dictionary. it says flooded plain.



posted on Jan, 30 2012 @ 07:48 AM
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www.bbc.co.uk...

Bettany Hughes is the bonnie lass in question
Great presenter. - Evidence of Atlantis
edit on 30-1-2012 by artistpoet because: typo



posted on Jan, 30 2012 @ 08:31 AM
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I began to watch this when it was originally screened a while ago.

As soon as the focus was centred on the Mediterranean I switched off.

This Med version is the usual hype dished up by people who cannot comprehend the concept that a pole reversal rearranges continental land masses.



posted on Jan, 30 2012 @ 08:36 AM
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Originally posted by margaretr
I began to watch this when it was originally screened a while ago.

As soon as the focus was centred on the Mediterranean I switched off.

This Med version is the usual hype dished up by people who cannot comprehend the concept that a pole reversal rearranges continental land masses.


Nice theory but unfortunately very little evidence anywhere in the world for this type of pole reversal (geological). If this occurred on our planet, we would be able to read in rock strata, etc. Unfortunately, the only evidence that we have for this (for example, that gathered under microscopic examination of rock strata) shows that this process happens over many millions of years and were it to happen now, our species would be long dust by the time it finished. In other words, the evidence found shows we would not even realise it was happening as it is so slow.



posted on Jan, 30 2012 @ 10:35 AM
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Originally posted by Parta
reply to post by Hanslune
 


so where did i put up all pictures of atlantis? you said i did again and again. thats dishonest.


Oh you've never flogged this theory before Parta, lol are you actually saying that?


you said pelagos didn't mean flooded plain. you were wrong.


You said it meant flooded plain - but hid that the other more common meaning that it is sea, you were wrong - so it would seem we were both wrong


you didn't know a sea filled the middle danube until i told you. you are ill informed.


Of course I knew about that you might try not making stuff up


you didn't know about iarcuri the biggest city in the ancient world until i told you and you're the great expert.


Only you have childishly given me the title of 'great expert', I'm not. And yes I knew about Iarcuri from the moment it was reported in the archaeological feeds along with hundreds of other sites. You really need to do something about your attitude...lol but then that is all you do have so I understand


you didn't know the epigravettians did what plato said atlanteans did. what should the map look like that proves it?


They didn't so why or how could I know that? You do see how this discussion has turned from a debate about Atlantis into a long attack against me? This is what you normally do, very tiresome


noone knew about black topped pottery.


Except all the archaeologists who dug it up and published information on it that you seemed to have read,


what is your input? i don't see any information just little nasty quips


Just returning what you started, friend.



gades is where the pen of geryon is. geryon is poseidons grandson. the vara i showed you is the pen of geryon.


Really! and there I thought it was in Spain

So what about answering all my other questions? Where is the magic museum? Why cannot a site that was an island 500 x 350 kilometers be found in central Europe?

Where are all the trade goods?



posted on Jan, 30 2012 @ 10:39 AM
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Originally posted by Parta

hans found it. he said i was trying to hide it. so somehow i'm the villain for hiding the dictionary. it says flooded plain.


You put up a link to a site that didn't show what you wanted it to and failed to explain how to get to said information

Pelagos has three main meanings, the last and least is 'flooded plain' that was used by who Parta? Did Plato use it? Please show why Plato meant that when referring to the Atlantic ocean?



posted on Jan, 30 2012 @ 10:55 AM
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From the Greek Dictionary in question









As one can see the term is used extensively to refer to the sea, deep sea, briny sea, etc it has one use as a flood ed plain

Parta the correct statement you should make for Pelagos would be:

Pelagos is a word used to describe the sea, deep sea or briny sea, it also has an obscure meaning as a flooded plain, used once in known Greek literature

Or

If that is to extreme for you could say that word Pelagos usually means the sea but one guy used it to mean 'flooded plain'. The guy who used it wasn't Plato....
edit on 30/1/12 by Hanslune because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 30 2012 @ 11:13 AM
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Originally posted by Hanslune

Oh you've never flogged this theory before Parta, lol are you actually saying that?


show me where i've posted the pictures of atlantis again and again as you said i have. as for flogging, i only put up stuff that adds, never takes away.


Originally posted by Hanslune

You said it meant flooded plain - but hid that the other more common meaning that it is sea, you were wrong - so it would seem we were both wrong


oh yes. i was not correct about the fact that its flooded plain. somewhere in there i was wrong.


Originally posted by Hanslune

Of course I knew about that you might try not making stuff up


prove it. show me one source that tells you that.


Originally posted by Hanslune

Only you have childishly given me the title of 'great expert', I'm not. And yes I knew about Iarcuri from the moment it was reported in the archaeological feeds along with hundreds of other sites. You really need to do something about your attitude...lol but then that is all you do have so I understand


prove it show me the feed. there have been exactly 3 documents written about it. where are the feeds.



Originally posted by Hanslune

They didn't so why or how could I know that? You do see how this discussion has turned from a debate about Atlantis into a long attack against me? This is what you normally do, very tiresome


map says they did. sorry


Originally posted by Hanslune

Except all the archaeologists who dug it up and published information on it that you seemed to have read,


could you please post a link to anyone writing about black topped pottery in europe? i've posted the british museums blurb that its invented in egypt and it heralds the big leap.




Originally posted by Hanslune

Just returning what you started, friend.


actually you're not. you are commenting on things you didn't know, couldn't navigate or understand. you never left anything for the returning.


Originally posted by Hanslune

Really! and there I thought it was in Spain

So what about answering all my other questions? Where is the magic museum? Why cannot a site that was an island 500 x 350 kilometers be found in central Europe?

Where are all the trade goods?


herodotus says that gades and the pillars of hercules are on okeanos potamos in the same sentence. okeanos potamos was never in spain.

trade goods? well i see atlantean black topped pottery in egypt. i see atlantean idols in egypt and across the middle east. copper pops up in egypt with the atlantean idols. gold too.

should there be more?

well actually the island of atlantis proper is only about 60k across i think. a stade is 1000 strides of a manwoman. they canaled up more however.
a site that big could only be seen from google satelite. you can see the gridwork of canals that would have been impossible on the ground especially some place where noone would ever be looking. iarcuri is proof noone was looking for anything.
iarcuri was not understood until google satelite. noone believed it. the vara on gades was unknown until satelite. the great rondel at vinga was so big that it needed to be seen via satelite. c'zorz arka [devils canal] was just a very old myth until google satelite.

why is eastern europe a magic museum time capsule? its just the way politics played out. alot of people did their bit to hide incremental parts but the old ways of hiding things preserved them perfectly for our methods of finding them.



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