Atlantis, the evidence, a Timewatch special.

Just a heads up for british members, this programmes just started on bbc 4 and it looks like it could potentially be very interesting, we'll see.

reply to post by thedoctorswife

Apologies, they just showed von Daniken, lol

Aww, I live in the states. This is a topic that heavily interests me, could you possibly record it?

Originally posted by thedoctorswife

Apologies, they just showed von Daniken, lol

I like Vona Daniken but don't take everything he says as the gospel truth.

Originally posted by ForAllMyDeadHomies
Aww, I live in the states. This is a topic that heavily interests me, could you possibly record it?

edit on 28-1-2012 by ForAllMyDeadHomies because: (no reason given)

I imagine it'l be youtubed eventually, its rather good, and its being presented by "shock horror " a woman scientist.

Originally posted by thedoctorswife
Just a heads up for british members, this programmes just started on bbc 4 and it looks like it could potentially be very interesting, we'll see.

Funny you should bring up Atlantis, as i had the strangest dream the other night about it O_O .
My dream was so clear and vivid. It started with me winning tickets to go see this new film called Atlantis.
But then it turned into instead of me going to see a film about Atlantis, i won tickets to go to Atlantis.
So i got on a bus that took me to Atlantis and when i got off i asked 'what time will i be picked up'
and the bus driver said to me 'Don't worry about it, just wait here and ill be back around'.
So when i looked around, the place was full with all skyscrapers that was as tall as the eyes could see.
And this funny looking guy came up to me (looked kinda like an alien mixed with human) and said 'You should leave this place as soon as possible' So i looked at him and said 'why?, i just won tickets to come here' and he said back to me 'You will see' and he walked away.
So all i remember from that was i was walking down the street, and i was seeing lots of more people looking like this guy, and flying cars in the sky and ones on the ground driving on 3 wheels (They where all in funny shapes, nothing like the cars we have here). But one thing that was for sure is this place, the was something cold about it. I was seeing the Police beating people for nothing and laughing, lots of more people being led on to buses in rows all in ankle chains attached to each other.
I asked one of the Police what was going on. He said that 'they didnt pay their taxes and was out of work, so they where bringing them to prison so they could not revolt'. So i said 'Isnt that a bit harsh' Next thing he looked and me and said to the other police 'we have a sympathizer'. Next they tried arresting me, so i was shutting 'im not from here, you can't arrest me, i did nothing wrong i was only asking a question' I was brought to this prison that looked like an old village with walls made of electric walls all around it.
Inside i seen the man i was talking to first and he said 'I told you to leave' i was asking him for a phone so i could ring home, that i have to get out im going to miss my bus and ill never get home.
After that my i woke up. but it was so strange and vivid, i can pretty much remember every detail of how the people looked, to how the cars looked to how everything looked and it felt soo real.
Its the first dream i had in like years that i can remember, and with you bringing up this topic i just had to say about my dream . Sorry about the spelling or anything but im drunk atm lol .And also S+F for the OP.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
Originally posted by thedoctorswife

Apologies, they just showed von Daniken, lol

I like Vona Daniken but don't take everything he says as the gospel truth.

Howdy Slayer

Did you mean to actually write

'I like Von Daniken but don't take anything he says as the truth'

Instead?

I'm pretty satisfied with the Minoan/Thera theory for the seed of truth in the Atlantis myth.

The Minoans were an advanced civilisation, and we have to keep in mind that 'advanced' to the ancient Greeks doesn't mean energy crystals, laser beam weapons and flying saucers like many fringe Atlantis theories now postulate.

Originally posted by VelvetSplash
I'm pretty satisfied with the Minoan/Thera theory for the seed of truth in the Atlantis myth.

The Minoans were an advanced civilisation, and we have to keep in mind that 'advanced' to the ancient Greeks doesn't mean energy crystals, laser beam weapons and flying saucers like many fringe Atlantis theories now postulate.

I watched this documentary last night. Yes, definitely Thera! It fits in every way. I just used some of that info in another post, too! In this documentary they say they found buried a priest and a human sacrificial victim. In his vessel the priest had the blood of his victim. All buried in the ash just like that!

reply to post by VelvetSplash



How about listening to what Plato actually said? He located Atlantis to the west of the Pillars of Hercules (Straits of Gibralta), that is, in the Atlantic Ocean - NOT hundreds of miles east off the coast of Greece!

It simply won't cut it to cherry-pick the evidence to suit your beliefs and ignore what Plato actually said about the civilisation of Atlantis. Just because some powerful volcano erupted in the past and created a tsunami is not enough to be the origin of Plato's story. You just cannot choose what you want to believe about Plato's account and dismiss the rest because it does not fit whatt we BELIEVE is history. Why would he have located the event so far away in some imaginary place? The Minoan eruption is just one of the dozens of hypothetical sources for the Atlantis myth proposed by academics wishing to rid themselves of an akward, historical enigma. None of them stand up because they are not located where Plato said the disaster occurred. Now, if you want to argue that he invented the location, just as he did the rest of the details about Atlantis, then you are ignoring the fact that this "myth" was not fabricated by him but existed long before he referred to it in his books.

Originally posted by micpsi
reply to post by VelvetSplash

 

How about listening to what Plato actually said? He located Atlantis to the west of the Pillars of Hercules (Straits of Gibralta), that is, in the Atlantic Ocean - NOT hundreds of miles east off the coast of Greece!

It simply won't cut it to cherry-pick the evidence to suit your beliefs and ignore what Plato actually said about the civilisation of Atlantis. Just because some powerful volcano erupted in the past and created a tsunami is not enough to be the origin of Plato's story. You just cannot choose what you want to believe about Plato's account and dismiss the rest because it does not fit whatt we BELIEVE is history. Why would he have located the event so far away in some imaginary place? The Minoan eruption is just one of the dozens of hypothetical sources for the Atlantis myth proposed by academics wishing to rid themselves of an akward, historical enigma. None of them stand up because they are not located where Plato said the disaster occurred. Now, if you want to argue that he invented the location, just as he did the rest of the details about Atlantis, then you are ignoring the fact that this "myth" was not fabricated by him but existed long before he referred to it in his books.

I must admit when I was watching the documentary I thought about that fact. Plato said it was west of The Pillars. That is one discrepency for sure.

I have not read Plato's account. I am gonna go check it out right now.

You are correct. Through the ages there have been so many cataclysms and the Thera one may not be the Atlantis happening. It does fit in many ways. Have you watched the doc all the way through? I urge you to. It is really fascinating whether you agree or not. There are many similarities with what Plato described also like the colour of the bricks, etc.

Whatever and wherever Atlantis is and was may never be known, but one thing is certain. They shared the same fate as The Minoans and The Therans.

Originally posted by micpsi
reply to post by VelvetSplash

 

How about listening to what Plato actually said? He located Atlantis to the west of the Pillars of Hercules (Straits of Gibralta), that is, in the Atlantic Ocean - NOT hundreds of miles east off the coast of Greece!

It simply won't cut it to cherry-pick the evidence to suit your beliefs and ignore what Plato actually said about the civilisation of Atlantis. Just because some powerful volcano erupted in the past and created a tsunami is not enough to be the origin of Plato's story. You just cannot choose what you want to believe about Plato's account and dismiss the rest because it does not fit whatt we BELIEVE is history. Why would he have located the event so far away in some imaginary place? The Minoan eruption is just one of the dozens of hypothetical sources for the Atlantis myth proposed by academics wishing to rid themselves of an akward, historical enigma. None of them stand up because they are not located where Plato said the disaster occurred. Now, if you want to argue that he invented the location, just as he did the rest of the details about Atlantis, then you are ignoring the fact that this "myth" was not fabricated by him but existed long before he referred to it in his books.

Read this:

en.wikipedia.org...

You can't defend with any concrete fact that Atlantis was anwhere atall. No-one knows for certain. However, there is a plausible theory about dating errors in the translation of Plato's account. Applying the same rule would make the Theran/Minoan cataclysm be the ideal candidate; the only thing it lacks is its location being within The Pillars.

Anything is possible when you see Aztec/Mayan/Inca culture in far away Americas resembling so closely The Egyptians particularly. They may be indeed of Egyptian origin so easily. Turn that around; the Egyptians could so easily have come over the ocean originally from The Americas. The only way we will ever know what happened is first by acurate dating without doubt of relics and comparisons of dating.

Lastly, if we consider that in just a few hundred years we have developed so extensively and quickly and that in just one day (likewith a major super volcanic eruption, man made nuclear or other disaster or comet/meteor hit) a whole hemisphere could be knocked out). So even just a thousand years is time enough for an incredibly well advanced culture to emerge and be destroyed. Many many many thousands of years have passed by since humans began existing on this planet.

The olde Atlantis debate and what Plato said in T & C (yes I recommend everyone read it)

You can:

Disbelieve it all

Pick and choose

Believe it all

Plato was in my opinion making up a story using elements of legend current in his time. He brought in Egypt because they were thought by the Greeks to be an old civilization and full of mysterious tales and places. Thera probably was part of his tale. Plato gave them a culture and technology equal to Athens at the time with superior in building.

If one believes everything in the story then Athen's is 11,600 years old - well it isn't based on the archaeological record and there is no sign of an Atlantean empire conquering the Med area at that time (considering that there were just villages at the time).

Another comment:

Meso-Americans related to the Ancient Egyptians? Long, long ago that was debunked, besides the off set in dates of the cultures their resemblance to one another is superficial.

Originally posted by Hanslune
The olde Atlantis debate and what Plato said in T & C (yes I recommend everyone read it)

Plato was in my opinion making up a story using elements of legend current in his time. He brought in Egypt because they were thought by the Greeks to be an old civilization and full of mysterious tales and places. Thera probably was part of his tale. Plato gave them a culture and technology equal to Athens at the time with superior in building.

If one believes everything in the story then Athen's is 11,600 years old - well it isn't based on the archaeological record and there is no sign of an Atlantean empire conquering the Med area at that time (considering that there were just villages at the time).

Another comment:

Meso-Americans related to the Ancient Egyptians? Long, long ago that was debunked, besides the off set in dates of the cultures their resemblance to one another is superficial.

plato was accused of plagiarizing zoroaster and the story of atlantis is yima and his varas.
yima was persian, the deadly enemy of both the greeks and egyptians at the time of solon and plato.

... and who didn't "conquer" the med at about 10000bc?


re:pillars of hercules... according to the more famous writers before plato [like herodotus etc], the pillars of hercules were on okeanos potamos which was a great freshwater sea not the atlantic ocean [plato says "pelagos" of atlas which is "the flooded plain of atlas"]

ps. athens is fronted by the saronic gulf? which was a wide fertile plain circa 10kbc so athens is however old it is.

Originally posted by Parta



plato was accused of plagiarizing zoroaster and the story of atlantis is yima and his varas.
yima was persian, the deadly enemy of both the greeks and egyptians at the time of solon and plato.

... and who didn't "conquer" the med at about 10000bc?

No one, there were various cultures as your own image shows

re:pillars of hercules... according to the more famous writers before plato [like herodotus etc], the pillars of hercules were on okeanos potamos which was a great freshwater sea not the atlantic ocean [plato says "pelagos" of atlas which is "the flooded plain of atlas"

What old Plato said

Many great and wonderful deeds are recorded of your state in our histories. But one of them exceeds all the rest in greatness and valour. For these histories tell of a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end. This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent.

ps. athens is fronted by the saronic gulf? which was a wide fertile plain circa 10kbc so athens is however old it is.

There was no city of Athens in 11,600 bc.....

Originally posted by Hanslune

No one, there were various cultures as your own image shows

no hans. the map clearly shows that the epigravettians moved exactly into the areas where plato said the atlanteans did exactly when he said they did. thats what the map shows. furthermore they moved because of a large flood.

Originally posted by Hanslune

What old Plato said

Many great and wonderful deeds are recorded of your state in our histories. But one of them exceeds all the rest in greatness and valour. For these histories tell of a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end. This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent.

no hans, what plato says is "pelagos of atlas" several times and nothing else and if you go to a greek lexicon like a perseus.tufts you will see pelagos means "flooded plain"

Originally posted by Hanslune
There was no city of Athens in 11,600 bc.....

noone on earth knows what was on the dozens of kilometers of saronic plain. why would anyone be at present day athens when athens would have been so far inland?

Originally posted by Parta

no hans. the map clearly shows that the epigravettians moved exactly into the areas where plato said the atlanteans did exactly when he said they did. thats what the map shows. furthermore they moved because of a large flood.

Sorry, no Parta, what did Plato say

Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia. This vast power, gathered into one, endeavoured to subdue at a blow our country and yours and the whole of the region within the straits; and then, Solon, your country shone forth, in the excellence of her virtue and strength, among all mankind. She was pre-eminent in courage and military skill, and was the leader of the Hellenes. And when the rest fell off from her, being compelled to stand alone, after having undergone the very extremity of danger, she defeated and triumphed over the invaders, and preserved from slavery those who were not yet subjugated, and generously liberated all the rest of us who dwell within the pillars.

The map shows a culture not a power and sites where there tools and pottery have been found, not what was 'conquered' plus it leaves out the specified area that Plato said that Atlantis conquered - your own images points that out very clearly.

This is the definition of epigravettian

DEFINITION: The late glacial industries of Italy from 20,000-8000 bp, which evolved into the Mesolithic. It is divided into early (20,000-16,000 bp), evolved (16,000-14,000 bp), and final (14,000-8,000 bp) phases. Epigravettian was followed by the Sauveterrian and Castelnovian in the 7th millennium BC. Epigravettian cultures developed contemporaneously in various parts of Europe, notably the Creswellian in Britain.

This culture although interesting did not have the technology Platon outlined in T & C

no hans, what plato says is "pelagos of atlas" several times and nothing else and if you go to a greek lexicon like a perseus.tufts you will see pelagos means "flooded plain".

Sorry no it means sea. Please point to a Lexicon by link and experts who agree with you

noone on earth knows what was on the dozens of kilometers of saronic plain. why would anyone be at present day athens when athens would have been so far inland?

Then why would Plato have been referring to an Athens he didn't know about? He was talking about HIS Athens not one no one knew about....... and that Athens didn't exist 11,600 years ago - nor did the Greeks as he knew them

Originally posted by Hanslune


Sorry, no Parta, what did Plato say

of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia.

The map shows a culture not a power and sites where there tools and pottery have been found, not what was 'conquered' plus it leaves out the specified area that Plato said that Atlantis conquered - your own images points that out very clearly

yes epigravettian tools have been found as far south as the levant and all the way to the pillars of hercules. that little dab of color in libya is epigravettian but few will say it in print cause its bad but when its on tv its ok... its the back migration.
.
but pottery? what are you on about pottery for? what does that have to do with anything?

Originally posted by Hanslune
This is the definition of epigravettian

DEFINITION: The late glacial industries of Italy from 20,000-8000 bp, which evolved into the Mesolithic. It is divided into early (20,000-16,000 bp), evolved (16,000-14,000 bp), and final (14,000-8,000 bp) phases. Epigravettian was followed by the Sauveterrian and Castelnovian in the 7th millennium BC. Epigravettian cultures developed contemporaneously in various parts of Europe, notably the Creswellian in Britain.

This culture although interesting did not have the technology Platon outlined in T & C

keep up your reading... but maybe something a little heavier that states that they even stayed away from athens for some reason. noone knows why.

in the epigravettian homeland there certainly are huge canals and earthworks as anyone can see. noone knows if they had the wheel or metal because no western scientist has been there. smelting was invented there and the oldest wheel is from the region. but what does science know.

science didn't even know until just a couple of years ago that a great freshwater sea covered central europe at the end of the ice age. science didn't know that the largest city in the ancient world was sitting in plain site beside THE major regional hiway. noone can act all hi and mighty about what they think science knows.

Originally posted by Hanslune
Sorry no it means sea. Please point to a Lexicon by link and experts who agree with you

sorry no.
perseus pelagos

perseus plato

Originally posted by Hanslune

Then why would Plato have been referring to an Athens he didn't know about? He was talking about HIS Athens not one no one knew about....... and that Athens didn't exist 11,600 years ago - nor did the Greeks as he knew them

actually its the egyptians talking about his athens of thousands of years ago.

Originally posted by Parta

of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia.

The map shows a culture not a power and sites where there tools and pottery have been found, not what was 'conquered' plus it leaves out the specified area that Plato said that Atlantis conquered - your own images points that out very clearly

yes epigravettian tools have been found as far south as the levant and all the way to the pillars of hercules. that little dab of color in libya is epigravettian but few will say it in print cause its bad but when its on tv its ok... its the back migration.

Your own images doesn't show them controlling the entire med plus the EP didn't 'conquer' the places they lived, they lived there for thousands of years

keep up your reading

Perhaps you should follow your own advice, lol

... but maybe something a little heavier that states that they even stayed away from athens for some reason. noone knows why.

unevidenced speculation, noone know why you think that means anything, lol

in the epigravettian homeland there certainly are huge canals and earthworks as anyone can see. noone knows if they had the wheel or metal because no western scientist has been there. smelting was invented there and the oldest wheel is from the region. but what does science know.

Science know nothing if we depended on you to interpret what they find - except when the find something you agree with then you put it up as evidence......no western scientists have ever been to the Czech republic, Hungary or Roumania????ah the cold war has been over for twenty years, those countries are now the 'west'...

science didn't even know until just a couple of years ago that a great freshwater sea covered central europe at the end of the ice age. science didn't know that the largest city in the ancient world was sitting in plain site beside THE major regional hiway. noone can act all hi and mighty about what they think science knows.

That's nice, but what does that have to do with Plato stating what he stated in T & C??

Originally posted by Hanslune
Sorry no it means sea. Please point to a Lexicon by link and experts who agree with you

perseus pelagos

Sorry this points to site that doesn't say anything to support you

perseus plato

This is in Greek; if you are going to waste peoples time and post to stuff that doesn't support your point that pelagos = flooded plain in English - why do so? If you are now going to get uppity and say I should speak ancient Greek I will point out that this discussion is in English and your comment is in English, provide evidence in the langauge claimed please. But haven't you had this same argument multiple times with Harte, Byrd and others?

actually its the egyptians talking about his athens of thousands of years ago.

No, it was Plato's claim that they told him thru a relative, a literary device, just like Edgar Rice Burroughs claim ed John Carter gave the documents to him that told the Martian tales...

reply to post by Hanslune


who is wasting peoples time? you say that map... that stops at 12kya.... has something to do with pottery? no it doesn't... hans hasn't even looked at the map. i can tell by the stats. hehe hans. ur funny.

but since you are going on about pots... in atlantis we have black topped pots


in egypt we should therefore find black topped pots ...and presto... a thousand years later they are supposedly inventing black topped pots in egypt.. science says

What is the significance of the disjunction between the Middle Neolithic and Late Neolithic assemblages at Nabta Playa and the emergence of Black-topped pottery? The transformation in pottery production reflects important shifts in technology and changes in pottery use that are part of a larger system of changes in the social organisation, visible in the construction of monuments (megaliths) and the understanding of time (calendar circle and megalithic alignments).

in atlantis there are shinny read pots, arrowheads and idols just like in egypt but a thousand years before.
pottery is covered for you now?


in regard to pelagos that links says
3. flooded plain, γίνεται π. Hdt.2.97, cf. 3.117.
the other link uses the word pelagos for every instance of the "atlantic ocean". its not a waste of time. its proof.
you show me your link that says tufts university is wrong.

byrd and harte? plz. experts are they? on what?


the sea stuff is me musing about what you obviously don't know of the world... yet you carry on as some great expert. noone that ever had an opinion on atlantis knew there was a sea in the centre of europe therefore their knowledge of the world at the time of is incomplete. so what? plato says its in europe himeslf. what else on a map of his world is as big as asia and libya combined. he's laughin. me too.

noone westerner [but me] had ever been to a museum to see all the artifacts. the east has never been with the west hans.

Although excavations over the last century uncovered traces of ancient settlements and the goddess figurines, it was not until local archaeologists in 1972 discovered a large fifth-millennium B.C. cemetery at Varna, Bulgaria, that they began to suspect these were not poor people living in unstructured egalitarian societies. Even then, confined in cold war isolation behind the Iron Curtain, Bulgarians and Romanians were unable to spread their knowledge to the West.

The story now emerging is of pioneer farmers after about 6200 B.C. moving north into Old Europe from Greece and Macedonia, bringing wheat and barley seeds and domesticated cattle and sheep. They established colonies along the Black Sea and in the river plains and hills, and these evolved into related but somewhat distinct cultures, archaeologists have learned. The settlements maintained close contact through networks of trade in copper and gold and also shared patterns of ceramics.

At the exhibition preview, Roger S. Bagnall, director of the institute, confessed that until now “a great many archaeologists had not heard of these Old Europe cultures.” Admiring the colorful ceramics, Dr. Bagnall, a specialist in Egyptian archaeology, remarked that at the time “Egyptians were certainly not making pottery like this.”....

new york times

noone knows whats on the ground in middle europe, certainly not you.... noone knows even to the point that a city thats bigger than rome can be sitting clearly with its huge wall visible obviously right from the hiway. nothing should surprise us. antiquity mag