My Son's School Counselor Quoted Him Scripture

Originally posted by IrishCream
My son said that the Counselor quoted to him the chapeter and verse he used, specifying that it was from the Bible! That is the main issue. He could just as easily have used the quote and never mentioned his source in so far as using it as he felt it applied to the situation, but he did not!!
The second main point is how the teacher reacted to my son's statement. I agree with another poster in that the teacher missed a FANTASTIC opportunity to "teach" the children in the class, as well as my son about intolerance!!

In other words, are you saying "A biblical quote may be sensible but I don't want my son to know where it comes from because it may taint the beliefs that I want my child to believe, so it's best that he remain ignorant of the source, this is the main issue."It seems you know a lot about intolerance, good for you. From what I've learned from you, you believe that mentioning the bible is inappropriate and should not be tolerated. Everyone asks for a source when it comes to information given from people, but when the source is given, it is suppressed and denied.

Originally posted by MamaJ
reply to post by Annee

 

HAHA! There is no God ...but we are all energy creating through thought?? HA! What created energy and thought? Come on now...

There is NO GOD is absolutely an ignorant way of saying I do not understand God. Just my opinion though.

There is nothing factual to back it up...that's for sure.

How interesting that you choose to disrespect and ridicule a belief you do not understand or agree with.

But have expectations to understand God as you perceive God.

Originally posted by IrVulture
reply to post by IrishCream

 

I think that counselor has no business being around children!

I wouldn't want MY children exposed to that nonsense....

Thank you.

Seriously - - what part of Separation of Church and State is not being understood here.

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by Annee
I am not casting anything on anyone. Please explain what I am casting.

Right here Annee:

Originally posted by Annee
Your son could have been Atheist - -

Absolutes. It's what turned me off of religion to start with.

That is ridiculous. I'm not casting anything.

It is a logical point. Atheism is on the rise. There are children being raised without god. To use a bible (or any religion) in a government school is in violation.

Parents who want religion in school - - need to seek out private schools who support a god belief.

reply to post by IrishCream


Maybe you shouldn't let your son watch South Park (j/k). Jewish is a religion and a race(aren't they special lol)...so if your son blurted out, man that guy looks Indian, would he of sent him to the office...I doubt it. But I could see where the teacher is coming from because there could be a jewish kid in that class that would take that as a racial insult.

My personal belief is that what was said, assuming it wasn't the Guidance Councilor holding the bible and reading from it or telling him that he should embrace the religion, it is nothing but quoting a relevant line from a fictional book.

However, I am not a lawyer nor do I have any legal basis, just my opinion in this matter. I didn't read this as much as found this to help you see legal cases involving the Separation of Church and State.

Personally, I do hope you spent as much time on a rant toward your son for his ethnic slur since this ethnic slur could have violated one or more of his classmates rights if they happen to have been Jewish. My personal experience would dictate though that you did not because it never seems to be a big deal when our own kid does things, only when it's done against our kids.

So it goes.... (I hope I didn't offend anyone by quoting Kurt Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse-Five there....)

you should report her and go read her the law.

I agree with Annee. The councillor may not have gone too far 'this time' but it might be just the beginning. We all know the church wouldn't have a fraction of it's followers if it wasn't for the fact that people are brainwashed into religion from a very early age, an age when kids are really susceptible to belief, religion shouldn't be taught to people until they're old enough to think for themselves.

We do not need the bible to tell us what's right and what's wrong, we don't need religion as a moral compass. Not required, thanks.

Originally posted by Hawkwind.
We do not need the bible to tell us what's right and what's wrong, we don't need religion as a moral compass. Not required, thanks.

Although I agree with most of what you said, a quote is merely a quote. Just because it came from a religious text, how does that automatically disqualify it as sound advice as long as it is relevant? Personally, I think the whole saying "Do unto others..." phrase, though it is in the bible, is relevant when teaching peaceful, non-offensive, co-existence. If that wasn't in the bible, but written by Plato, it would be equally relevant of a phrase.

Originally posted by noxvita83

Although I agree with most of what you said, a quote is merely a quote. Just because it came from a religious text, how does that automatically disqualify it as sound advice as long as it is relevant?

Hello, Noxvita.

I acknowledge that and that's why I quoted that 'this time' there was no harm done, I'm just cautious that it may only be the start of the brainwashing. I see it happening with my own kids, they come home from school and tell me what they learned about Jesus. I tell them that there might indeed be a God but try to steer them away from the usual bible fairy stories and psychological trapments of religion, I tell them in no uncertain terms that most of it is bullcrap, but again, when I'm telling them this I always maintain that there 'might' be a God, simply because there might and if there is you can bet that God thinks most mainstream religions are ridiculous.

reply to post by Hawkwind.


And with that, I believe you have the best idea. All too often parents (not saying you) feel that the school is the sole place to learn about life then get upset over the fact that an idea is presented contrary to their beliefs. This idea can be "My child learned in school there is no God." or it could be "Religion was taught to my child in school." This is the one complaint Atheists and Theists have that is in common. This is something I hear all the time. Academia is a place to acquire knowledge and share ideas, but not to force opinion. This is where the parents job begins. If you don't want your child to believe a certain way, or make their own decisions, then you should teach them when they come home. Now, I'm not saying you as in "Hawkwind" but rather you whomever is reading this. If I were to talk to someone and give advice on any subject, my personal beliefs, knowledge, and experience is going to be the well from which I draw my advice from, as this guidance councilor has done. That's a far cry different than brainwashing.

I'm fairly young (28) so my school experience maybe different from the younger and older members here on ATS, but I remember 2 teachers in particular that would fit as brainwashing by the common conception of such. This one science teacher would go off on tangents talking about how her family was helped by their church. And this was a common occurrence. She wouldn't outright preach, but talk about how her church helped them cope with life and become a stronger family. I saw this as persuading people to try out going to church, which I saw as an attempt to "hook 'em while they were young." Another thing I was thought was equally wrong was this history teacher would openly mock all religion and actually call agnostics cowards for not coming to the full conclusion there is no god. As part of history to learn of the regions of the world, he would say things like "These buffoons actually believed this." That is also wrong, both brainwashing. Talking to my atheist friends, and their families, they had no problem with the history teacher but thought that science teacher should lose her job for trying to brainwash people, and my theist friends ironically said the same thing except in reverse.

Ultimately, the point I'm making is the lack of parent's will to be part of the educational and growing process combined with their own prejudices is making mountains out of molehills of a simple scenario such as this. Frankly, the ultimate solution to the 'problem' of people brainwashing others into beliefs is to isolate your child. And that's not reasonable either. I'd rather have my child hear about believes that are not my own at school in a structured environment than at the playground where other children will employ peer pressure to push their beliefs (or that of their parents). At least they would hear it and I have more control to talk to them about it.

If this teacher was quoting and reading from the book: "The Magic of Reality - - How we know what's really true" - - by Richard Dawkins.

This would be a whole different discussion. I'm not in denial.

I think this is a symptom of a deeper societal issue than pushing religion (or lack thereof) onto people. Intolerance is this issue. When people realized that bigotry (whether it was racism, sexism, hatred of alternative sexual orientations, ect.) was evil, we decided to correct the moving vehicle which is our society. We realized our societal 'vehicle' was heading into the ditch on the right hand side of the road, so instead of straightening out the wheel, we jerked the wheel to the left and now we're heading into the other ditch. We never stopped being bigots, now we as a society are bigots against what the bigots of old were for. The answer is clear, if we are so enlightened, why can't we stop being bigots all together? You hate *insert minority hear* or you hate *insert majority*? Then you should be Shunned. Simple as that. You are as ignorant as the racist, bible thumping bigot that you speak against if you can't tolerate someone even quoting a line from a fictitious book (according to your opinion, and mine) that happens to be the basis of someone else's religion.

Isn't it interesting how some are trying to complicate this to justify pushing religion.

Kid - 8th grade boy - - acted like a kid. Said someone looked Jewish because they had a big nose. Tell me you haven't sometime in your life said the same thing.

Teacher - - probably too afraid of making wrong decision - - missed teaching opportunity - - sent kid to principle/counselor.

Counselor - - pulls out bible and reads from it. Does not matter what he/she read. That is a clear violation of Church and State in a public (government) school. Teachers have been released for less.

reply to post by Annee

Originally posted by IrishCream
So the teacher, upon hearing the remark, sent him straight to the Guidance Counselor. I think that a simple "That was inappropriate" or something of that nature would have sufficed, but what do I know, right?! Anyway, my son gets to the office and informs the Counselor about what had gotten him sent, to which the Counselor replied "The thoughts of the heart over flow through the mouth" and then quoted the Bible to my son, a specific chapter and verse. He of course does not remember what it was, but it really is neither here nor there!!

OP said it was just a quote, not pulling out the bible. If it were pulling out the bible, then you know what, I wouldn't be saying what I'm saying, I'd be saying what you're saying and up-in-arms about it too.

8th grade boy, aged 13-14 should be old enough, especially in our society, to know that society views this as bigoted.

Teacher: Did the right thing and honestly, when I was in school (granted only a decade ago) if I had made this comment, I'd be suspended between 3 days to a week.

As far as making a similar comment, everyone does, goes back to my last post about the over-correction thing. The reason I pointed out the bigotry is why is one form okay, but not all? We've just changed what we're bigoted towards in this society, not the fact that we're bigoted. What the councilor had done is equal to what the kid had done, which was both harmless.

Originally posted by noxvita83
OP said it was just a quote, not pulling out the bible.

Then the question is - - how does this kid know it is a quote from the bible? Because it surely is.

Quoting from the bible is no different then directly reading it from the bible IMO. If it was my kid - - I'd be pissed.

Simple talking is better.

Because I am sick with a bad head cold - - I gonna put off saying anything more.

Originally posted by Annee

Then the question is - - how does this kid know it is a quote from the bible? Because it surely is.

Here's what the OP said in regards to this

Originally posted by IrishCream

Anyway, my son gets to the office and informs the Counselor about what had gotten him sent, to which the Counselor replied "The thoughts of the heart over flow through the mouth" and then quoted the Bible to my son, a specific chapter and verse. He of course does not remember what it was, but it really is neither here nor there!!

Now, this is speculation but here's my guess. The kid didn't remember what it exactly was, but my guess he paraphrased it to the mother, and the mother remembered it as being something from the bible. I just reread the original post and the quote that was given The thoughts of the heart over flow through the mouth" is from the bible, but it isn't the whole story but rather a quote meaning a disconnect between the brain and the tongue. In other words, he didn't think before he spoke, which is completely relevant to what happened. The full quote, by guessing with the information given was "But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart -- defiles you. Basically, it's a condemnation of the words he used. If anything, the councilor is guilty of trying to sound like a wise man by saying something fancy instead of a parent/authority figure saying something along the lines of "What you said doesn't become you."

My gut feeling tells me that she might not have posted a rant like this, but still would have been taken back if the teacher chose the Samuel Clemens quote, "It is better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt."

Goes back to my personal beliefs (yes I'm gonna subject you to my version of "preaching" so forgive me.) People are only offended because they want to be. Something in our society makes us feel that we must be a victim to get recognition and/or validation. There are far worse things happening to us collectively than (statement of conjecture of stereotype here) a gray haired old guidance councilor. It's not like this is gonna scar the kid for life (or even cause a minor metaphoric scratch. With proper parental direction, all this is an odd statement from an aloof councilor that might make the kid scratch his head for a couple of seconds, I doubt he will even remember this in a year or two let alone the rest of his life. Heck, I doubt he'll even remember it in a week.

On a off topic, but related note, this doesn't surprise me this behavior was done by a guidance councilor. I have a link to a youtube video that sums up guidance councilors in a nutshell. And I hope you feel better Annee.