Corruption scandal shakes Vatican as internal letters leaked

reply to post by charles1952


Theoretically it is possible for a return to a more traditionalist path for the Holy Roman Catholic Church; one warmly welcomed. I see a gradual unease within the ranks of cardinals and archbishops. Once fanatical in their support for modernity I see such beliefs waning as time marches forward. Unlike some hard – liners I accept that every whisper of Satan does, necessarily, provide us with more wisdom. Meaning that, because of the time indulging in modernity the Church is slowly realizing what an enormous mistake this was.

I am not a perfect Roman Catholic, it would be a lie for me to lay claim to such a thing, but I try. That is all the more one can ask really of man in the age of modernity. However men of the cloth are supposed to be more morally sound than us; they are to be our leaders, to open our eyes and guide us toward the light. When their soul’s become corrupted, our souls follow. Because of this we have witnessed the departure into purgatory many good men and women who were led astray.

One can but pray that the slow progress being made by this Pope, allowing the return of Tridentine Mass, will continue in such a great progression as to restore all the critical aspects of Catholic theology. We must reject the ecumenism for Catholic exclusivism, religious liberty for pragmatic religious tolerance, collegiality for Papal supremacy, and of course return to the Tridentine Mass. All of Vatican II must be overturned, I would even argue anything reformed from Vatican I should also be overturned.

All talk of universal human rights, greatness of democracy, and equality of religions must be abandoned without reserve. It is the Kingdom of Heaven, not the Republic of Heaven. It is Christ the King, not Christ the President. I would conclude that anything less than the complete rejection of modernity would retain the Church and all of her followers, in the bondage of lies, deceit, and an afterlife in purgatory until the resurrection. There is no middle ground, no ‘realism’, only strict adherence to doctrine even if it means you lose 90% of your following.

Simon Tolkien, speaking of his grandfather J. R. R. Tolkien (author of Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit), noted this about an experience at Mass after Vatican II:

I vividly remember going to church with him in Bournemouth. He was a devout Roman Catholic and it was soon after the Church had changed the liturgy from Latin to English. My grandfather obviously didn't agree with this and made all the responses very loudly in Latin while the rest of the congregation answered in English. I found the whole experience quite excruciating, but my grandfather was oblivious. He simply had to do what he believed to be right.

web.archive.org...://www.simontolkien.com/jrrtolkien.html

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

Point being....If the Vatican itself doesn't call something improper, I'm missing where exactly anyone else has the basis to say so?

It is a little like the Army paying $100 bucks for each box of nails they buy from John Don't when they can get the same nails from Bob Do for $1 but John Don't is going to give the person in charge of assigning contracts a $20 kickback on each box purchased.

Improper? It is BRIBERY AND MISUSE OF FUNDS.

In the case of the Church it is the parishioners and the legitimate business people who are getting screwed in order to benefit operators charging double or more. To be blunt - the Church shouldn't be screwing anyone.

reply to post by newcovenant

Dear newcovenant,

There are others on this thread more capable of answering you than I am, but because I spend my life in confusion, it's easy for me to ask questions.

In the first comment from the Vatican they're simply saying, yes, those letters are authentic but nobody's happy to see private correspondence leaked to the press. Why do you think that was disgusting and especially revolting? Governments everywhere get unhappy when there documents are leaked, Obama puts people in jail for it.

You say that the Vatican is engaged in corruption. Which of the examples given in the letters strike you as evidence of major Vatican corruption?

You don't think there are people with a hatred for the Church and would like to see it destroyed? There are many posters on ATS who would love to get rid of the Church.

Why do you think it was despicable for the Vatican to say it was taken out of context?

I told you I confuse easy. If you could explain yourself, I'd be grateful.

Originally posted by Misoir
reply to post by charles1952

 

Theoretically it is possible for a return to a more traditionalist path for the Holy Roman Catholic Church; one warmly welcomed. I see a gradual unease within the ranks of cardinals and archbishops. Once fanatical in their support for modernity I see such beliefs waning as time marches forward. Unlike some hard – liners I accept that every whisper of Satan does, necessarily, provide us with more wisdom. Meaning that, because of the time indulging in modernity the Church is slowly realizing what an enormous mistake this was.

I am not a perfect Roman Catholic, it would be a lie for me to lay claim to such a thing, but I try. That is all the more one can ask really of man in the age of modernity. However men of the cloth are supposed to be more morally sound than us; they are to be our leaders, to open our eyes and guide us toward the light. When their soul’s become corrupted, our souls follow. Because of this we have witnessed the departure into purgatory many good men and women who were led astray.

One can but pray that the slow progress being made by this Pope, allowing the return of Tridentine Mass, will continue in such a great progression as to restore all the critical aspects of Catholic theology. We must reject the ecumenism for Catholic exclusivism, religious liberty for pragmatic religious tolerance, collegiality for Papal supremacy, and of course return to the Tridentine Mass. All of Vatican II must be overturned, I would even argue anything reformed from Vatican I should also be overturned.

All talk of universal human rights, greatness of democracy, and equality of religions must be abandoned without reserve. It is the Kingdom of Heaven, not the Republic of Heaven. It is Christ the King, not Christ the President. I would conclude that anything less than the complete rejection of modernity would retain the Church and all of her followers, in the bondage of lies, deceit, and an afterlife in purgatory until the resurrection. There is no middle ground, no ‘realism’, only strict adherence to doctrine even if it means you lose 90% of your following.

Simon Tolkien, speaking of his grandfather J. R. R. Tolkien (author of Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit), noted this about an experience at Mass after Vatican II:

I vividly remember going to church with him in Bournemouth. He was a devout Roman Catholic and it was soon after the Church had changed the liturgy from Latin to English. My grandfather obviously didn't agree with this and made all the responses very loudly in Latin while the rest of the congregation answered in English. I found the whole experience quite excruciating, but my grandfather was oblivious. He simply had to do what he believed to be right.

web.archive.org...://www.simontolkien.com/jrrtolkien.html

edit on 1/27/2012 by Misoir because: (no reason given)

Human rights are bad? I'll pass on that...Jesus rejected the religious leaders that thought the law took precedent over taking care of the flock. Love is the law, it's as simple as that. When the Church became strict enforcers of the law instead of loving, lenient and kind, that is when they turned away from God. And that happened very long ago.

The truth is that the Catholic Church has been evil since Simon the PTR (magician) started to convince people to take on the idea of a Universal (Catholic) faith. It has been the official stance of the church that nothing is pagan if it comes into the Church that means it has been 'baptized' and is acceptable. Yeah, that type of thinking worked out well for the ancient Jews...or not.

As far as money goes, everybody here needs to know the name August Belmont, he is the most famous link that I can think of between the Rothchild family and the Vatican...very interesting life he lived.

The Church crumbled at the feet of Modernity

WTF? The church is still massively backwards, and blaming people who don't want to live in the dark ages for child abuse is as insulting as it is stupid.

Originally posted by newcovenant
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

Point being....If the Vatican itself doesn't call something improper, I'm missing where exactly anyone else has the basis to say so?

It is a little like the Army paying $100 bucks for each box of nails they buy from John Don't when they can get the same nails from Bob Do for $1 but John Don't is going to give the person in charge of assigning contracts a $20 kickback on each box purchased.

Improper? It is BRIBERY AND MISUSE OF FUNDS.

In the case of the Church it is the parishioners and the legitimate business people who are getting screwed in order to benefit operators charging double or more. To be blunt - the Church shouldn't be screwing anyone.

Oh I don't disagree about there being money in and out at inflated numbers. Don't get me wrong. I simply point out that on one hand, it doesn't matter to anyone in the Vatican unless the Pope says it does..and he's already spoken on this one, as I understand it. Everything now is a matter for public relations and/or tabloid news.

On the other hand and those inflated numbers.. I mentioned in another post that they also maintain the largest, most extensive and oldest collection of records and historical artifacts in the world and in history. They seem to indicate it's small and limited...but I'm not buying that for an instant. These are collections people have been building through time for the Church since it started. That takes money.....A LOT OF MONEY...

Kinda like that $100 dollar box of nails where John only got $10 for it, and the other $90 just kinda went poof.......and into funding things the public doesn't even know exist.

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by newcovenant

 

Dear newcovenant,

There are others on this thread more capable of answering you than I am, but because I spend my life in confusion, it's easy for me to ask questions.

In the first comment from the Vatican they're simply saying, yes, those letters are authentic but nobody's happy to see private correspondence leaked to the press. Why do you think that was disgusting and especially revolting? Governments everywhere get unhappy when there documents are leaked, Obama puts people in jail for it.

You say that the Vatican is engaged in corruption. Which of the examples given in the letters strike you as evidence of major Vatican corruption?

You don't think there are people with a hatred for the Church and would like to see it destroyed? There are many posters on ATS who would love to get rid of the Church.

Why do you think it was despicable for the Vatican to say it was taken out of context?

I told you I confuse easy. If you could explain yourself, I'd be grateful.

I have no illusions my explanation is going to end your "confusion." I can only tell you how I feel. I do not ask you to feel the same way since we are all coming from different starting places and points of understanding. This is how I feel, right or wrong.

First I grew up with and have a passion for the Church and so corruption is like learning the love of my life cheated. The Pope is not Obama and the Church is not anyone's "government" You are not even talking apples and oranges. You are talking about apples and say....human hearts on ice for transplants. That is how they compare to each other.

It is a sacred place and the responsibilities in all aspects are responsibilities to God. If you ignore God who wants you to feed the poor and INSTEAD you spend hard earned money on "your favorite plumber" for example, who charges 3X more than anyone else - this is not being a responsible agent of the Lord. This is doing your own bidding and using the robes as a handy disguise.

Did you read the whole story?

I read it in the NY Times and came back to ATS since this is both shocking and particularly scandalous and on a par with the coverups for molestation. These are different crimes but when you are entrusted with CHRISTENDOM, I should think you have a SPECIAL OBLIGATION to be utterly transparent and painstakingly scrupulous in your actions.

As Vatican City...That is your job!!!! For all you know the fate of the world actually MIGHT depend on what people think of you!

You say people want to disband the Church?
Didn't Jesus enter the temple and start tearing it apart when he saw they were using the house of his Father for gambling and entertainment?

I think in this case Jesus Himself would come and tear apart this Vatican as well. It is a similar "for profit" operation that doesn't even have the good sense to be ashamed of itself.

Saddened in this instance is a word used to garner sympathy where no sympathy is warranted. They could not use hurt angry or embarrassed. They could not say the jig is up and our corruption and favoritism has been found out or "we were caught in a lie" letting people believe we are righteous when we are not.

And as if getting caught was not bad enough...what did the Church do to the brave David who was left alone fighting a Goliath of corruption? They deliberately crushed him and his works - proving the corruption was longstanding, and would not be stopped.
They wanted to squash and humiliate a man who honored the Lord AND spoke an inconvenient truth. He worked with all his power and heart to save money that could be better spent feeding and clothing the poor rather than buying lavish and over priced articles for the Church.
It is LIKE killing Jesus just to shut him up. It is the same vein of sin without the severity. It is still the same sin. Against the spirit that is trying to follow Gods word. It is among the worst sins of all and the only one God cannot forgive. Neither can I.

If this were not an institution that made its bread and butter upholding the value of the human soul I might give them a Hail Mary pass for a sin of this nature. This is the Church and they have become so comfortable with corruption they cannot even identify it themselves anymore.

Yes, perhaps it is time to disband it. Let it go.
It is an embarrassment and I am "saddened" for it.

Blow a whistle, get canned. Blow an altar boy, get reassigned to a church in another diocese a few states away.

Welcome to Catholicism.

That's organized religion for ya!

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
Anyway... point being.. Whether I like them personally or not, they sure seem to be everyone's punching bag lately on a wide variety of things.... It's getting a bit over the top.

And it isn't as if Italy aren't renowned for corruption right across the board. I should imagine there are as many corrupt clergy in Italy as there are corrupt politicians. The Church provides a very convenient scape-goat to take all the rap, when clearly both within and without the Vatican, Italy prides itself on it's ability to deal dirty.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
On the other hand and those inflated numbers.. I mentioned in another post that they also maintain the largest, most extensive and oldest collection of records and historical artifacts in the world and in history. They seem to indicate it's small and limited...but I'm not buying that for an instant. These are collections people have been building through time for the Church since it started. That takes money.....A LOT OF MONEY...

Indeed. Hermatically sealed storage, temperature and humidity control...plus the cost of acquiring new additions to the collection. However, the collections in British Museums, and in other places in the world are probably more extensive...such as the British Library which carries a copy of every book ever published in English (that has survived) and they do that through taxation and donated revenues. Like most of the organised (and successful) religions, most of the capital of the RCC is tied up in property that provides revenues on an annualised basis. That is what gives it, them, their longevity, and because these properties will have been bequeathed or donated to the Church they cannot be liquidated and the use of those revenues is also usually stringent. A Church can have lots of fancy trappings, and possessions, but in cash terms, still be quite poor. The Vatican city alone must require enormous funds to maintain that level of cleanliness and presentation. Cleaning to that standard, and especially to conservation standards, is a veritable money-pit. Additionally, because often bequests are made to individual Churches, those funds remain available only to that Church, and cannot be widely distributed. So while one parish can be stinking rich because it owns the incomes from a whole street of houses, the next parish along may be completely dependent upon the central church and the offerings from the collection plate. Which is silly.

Any organization with that much power and that much say in world affairs that has been in power for as long as the Catholic Church has is going to be littered with corruption.

Originally posted by newcovenant
reply to post by mike dangerously

 

The Vatican issued a statement Thursday criticizing the "methods" used in the journalistic investigation. But it confirmed that the letters were authentic by expressing "sadness over the publication of reserved documents."

"Sadness?" This is disgusting and especially revolting when you consider this is coming from the Church which should be setting examples and not engaged in MORE corruption themselves. I can't believe someone has it out for the Church. The Church is just getting bold and sloppy.

In its statement, the Vatican said the journalistic investigation had treated complicated subjects in a "partial and banal way" and could take steps to defend the "honor of morally upright people" who loyally serve the Church.

"defend the honor of morally upright people?" They have to be kidding. That isn't even a good cover.

Why do I feel this sort of cronyism occurs in all forms of government and in particular the USA today?

I think these tactics were originally begun by the Church, and remain with us in a loosely veiled system of corruption in our present government today.

edit on 27-1-2012 by newcovenant because: (no reason given)

Sorrowfully this "mother" of churches wherein Benedyktos claims he is the "vicar of Christ", (the 'substitute')makes grandiose claims; While accomodating this corruption and the history of pedophilia repeatedly...and profitting beyond all the others, the discerning folks are left aghast..

Power does corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Sadly the blood of many has been sought for seeking truth...


Once the full scope of deceit is measured, the rectificatin follows swiftly.

Originally posted by Unvarnished
reply to post by mike dangerously

 

Vatican City is one of the richest cities/country in the world. The Pope himself has so much money he could feed an entire nation if he wanted too, but that is the way religion works, they tell you to do what is right, take your money, and in the end live a lavish life while everyone else is suffering.

Can you quote some references here, please? Or is it just a speculation?

reply to post by mike dangerously


Why am I not surprised that the power system which is comfortably supporting the throne of Vatican City is based on a web of corruption? Oppression and slander abounds...

Unfortunately, while the players may come and go, the game never changes.

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by Unvarnished

 

I'd like to come back to this thread, it sounds interesting. In the meantime, you may want to know that the budget for Vatican City is less than $400 Million a year.

That's probably what they presents to the public only. They always had hidden business. I am christian but got nothing in common with those hypocrite folks.

New Vatican Bank scandal threatens to erupt

by John L Allen Jr on Sep. 21, 2010 •NCR Today

click to delete
This morning, Italian authorities announced that U.S. $30 million in funds belonging to the Vatican Bank have been seized, and the bank’s president and another senior official have been placed under investigation, following allegations of money-laundering. Specifically, prosecutors apparently believe that the Vatican Bank is being used by some Italian entities and VIPs to disguise financial fraud or tax evasion.

The formal name for the Vatican Bank is the “Institute for the Works of Religion,” or IOR, and its current president is the distinguished Italian economist and Catholic layman, Ettore Gotti Tedeschi.

The $30 million seized by civil authorities were in an IOR account at another Italian bank, called Credito Artigiano.

ncronline.org...

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by Unvarnished

 

I'd like to come back to this thread, it sounds interesting. In the meantime, you may want to know that the budget for Vatican City is less than $400 Million a year.

All I know is that visiting a town in mexico many years ago, I met a family who had so little to eat that I don't know why they were alive and the rest of the population was not much better. No pluming, a hill outside of town was covered in human waste, the town toilet. The water from dirty wells hauled up and boiled...BUT the Padre the priest of the church was rich! The church was filled with gold icons and the people literally crawled on their knees up the street to church..anyone with anything to give it went to the church!

When I was 18 and had a two year old and a new baby to care for I was Catholic. My husband then and I went to church every Sunday, we gave what we could, we were very poor not on welfare btw.

One day we went to church and the "Father" had envelopes handed out to us...each envelope had a dollar amount written on the outside. ..he got up and gave a rant..an angry rant, about us not giving enough! The envelopes had an amount we simply did not have written on it and he yelled about how we were not giving enough and now there was a amount we must give...we never went back....

That MAN who called himself Father had a two story home next to the church, a maid and a big new car....I hope there is a hell.

reply to post by Trueman

Dear Trueman,

Thanks for bringing up another issue, Tedeschi and the IOR. I ran to wikipedia and found this:
A Wiki link

On 21 September 2010, Italian police declared that Gotti Tedeschi and another IOR manager were under investigation for money laundering charges. €23 million were seized as a precaution. Police began an investigation regarding Tedeschi around a week before the news was made public after a division of the Bank of Italy alerted police to two transactions involving the Vatican Bank that were deemed suspicious. The money seized was bound from an Italian bank, Credito Artigianato, to JP Morgan Chase and another Italian bank, Banca del Fucino. Both the origin and destination of the funds were accounts under the control of the Vatican Bank. The Vatican Bank had allegedly failed to disclose the origin of the money, a violation of Italian law.

In a statement regarding the investigation, the Vatican said that it was "...perplexed and astonished by the initiatives of the Rome prosecutors, considering the data necessary is already available at the Bank of Italy." According to the police, the presence of the investigation did not mean either of the officials involved had been charged with a crime, and a judicial ruling would be necessary to continue the investigation.[25]

On Thursday, December 30, 2010, the Catholic News Service homepage reported that Pope Benedict XVI had issued an Apostolic Letter that established the Financial Information Authority as an independent agency to oversee the monetary and commercial activities of all Vatican-related institutions, including the Vatican bank. It will monitor all Vatican financial operations and make sure they meet international norms against money-laundering and the financing of terrorism.

On May 31, 2011, Rome's attorney general released the 23 million Euros in assets which had been seized in September, apparently in acknowledgment of the steps taken in the following months to conform the Institute to international standards.

So it looks like here is another "scandal" that turned out to be nothing.

With respect,
Charles1952

I'm concerned about Archbishop Vigano,yeah he has been reassigned.Now that this came out how will the Vatican deal with him? I think he maybe in a dangerous spot right now,we all know through out history what has happened to people who have openly opposed the Curia.He already was smeared and forced out.

god said him self first you have to give 10% of you income then you have to give from your harte so what if the pope could help the poor it never said the pope had to give money so it was there fault that they were born that way. im really saying its not fair but what can you do?