Christians, Pagans, etc. Some questions if you don't mind.

We Asatru followers refer Odin to the Allfather He and his kin created all out of the body of the giant Ymir. As for your question about calling the gods God..well they really makes no sense in the fact Christianity says there is only one God Jesus Christ and so that really would not sound t right if you understand what I'm saying. There are too many gods to just call God, it would not work.

reply to post by SaturnFX




Heya Saturn,

Hope you are well,
You have some good questions here,

1) Does it matter if you get the absolutely correct name of God or Jesus...aka, proper pronounciations and such, or can I simply refer to God as Odin and Jesus as Thor (fact...Gods name is not God, and Jesus is not Jesus...just what we westerners call it...so, we already have made up names anyhow)
Explain why (or why not) it matters what name we place on the concepts

I think that there are different ways to look at it,

Firstly, If you are looking at the concept of God from an outside perspective,
An objective view if you will,then what you are asking is very relevant, You would want to know.

But what if you knew the person that you are asking about personally,
Would that make a difference ?.

Do you call your friends,or Wife (If married) by another name than the one that
they are named with? ,Actually yes,you most prolly do, Mebe you call her "Honey"
or "Darling" and maybe you call your best friend 'Knuckles", even tho his name
is Montgomery,or something...

So,What you call him and the reasons why are defined by perspective

I call God by the names that he has due to having a personal relationship with
him, One being "Lord", That because i choose to submit to his will as best i can,
Yes,The Fail boat docks at my port at times but Grace keeps me afloat when needed.

The other that i call him is"Father" ("Abba"in Hebrew),because he is, he's my Dad, and i am secure
in that, I can tell him anything and he always pays attention, he loves to give me
good things and he pulls me up when i need it,(Often)...

So his names relates to his character as well as his title and
depending on the relationship that you have will define what you call him.

Hope that makes some sense...

2) What ceremonies do matter, and what doesn't? (aka, marriage, eucharist. sabbath day, etc). and why do some matter and others don't

Hmmm,Ceremonies...Well,I can only speak from my perspective,

Myself, I don't really have any as such, I don't uphold the Sabbath as Jesus worked
on the Sabbath healing a man, I have been known to work on the Sabbath as well,
I don't hold one day in esteem over another, The term "Holiday" or Holy day is
a religious precept, For myself every day should be Holy, A day that God is
esteemed in my life, That every day is a celebration of what he has done for me so
i see it like that.

The Eucharist, Well, Yes i have had communion in church, Now personally i think
that the ceremony that Jesus showed the disciples was more than a once a week thing,
It was a constant state of thanksgiving but with an outworking of practicality
in when the believers meet together that they take a bit of time to reflect and
that bread and wine or fruit juice or whatever bought home the fact that real flesh
and blood was sacrificed for us, And no, I don't believe that it changes into
real flesh and blood,
But the way that i see it is that we should be thankful for every thing that we are
given, food,drink,breath,everything.

Marriage, Yes, I believe in it, being married in a church,well, That's for an
individual to decide but for me, when you take vows all creation is witness to
what you say,

But as for any other ceremonies, I don't have any and don't feel that i have
to perform for love or acceptance, I am loved and accepted already.

I do say Grace at dinner cause i get to sit at my fathers table so he can sit at mine
and cause he is a Gentleman he waits for an invite so i like to give him one.
That is prolly the one "ritual" that i have.

3) Why is the deity of the old testiment so angry, but jesus is such a likeable guy?

He was a bit cranky at times, wasn't he...hehe,
What you have to remember tho is, That God wanted the Hebrews to be a shining example of his love
and Grace and he said to them, "Righto you lot", here's the deal, Here's a list of things
that i want you to do and if you do them then you will have everything that someone
could ask, Healthy crops and livestock, Healthy Children and peace in your land and
the most of all, The other crew that live in the lands around you will see the way that you
live and what i have done and they will know that I am the One true God and they will
have my blessing as well if they choose to live in my family,
So what did the Hebrews do with all this?, They did everything the opposite, remembering
that God invested a lot of effort into setting all this up to see it thrown back in
his face, No wonder he got mad at times...

Continued-

The other thing to remember is, And we all know this one, Is that bad news sells,
Seeing that we are such negitave Nancies at times and we love all the bad stuff,
Well that happens when it comes to the Bible as well,We don't often hear of the good
things that God did,the loving and kind and generous manner that God dealt with
individuals and the love that he bestowed upon them but they are in there, all through it,
In fact the Bible is a book of Love even tho it is not often seen as such.

You know,And i am sure that you are aware of this Saturn, That Jesus got cranky too,
He was pretty hardcore on those that were supposed to be reprisentitaves of God's
character (Saducess and Pharrisees) but used their position of power and authority
to their own gains,He nailed them real hard...

4) If revelations is a series of visions given to a simple man, does this mean anyone with visions = just as credible as the initial seer? Why or why not?

Well, If you take the Bible as the word of God to man then the Spirit
of the Bible as well as the words written specificlly state that a vision
or a word spoken in the name of God must A:Exalt God as God and Jesus as the Saviour
and that B:That it must come to pass,(In its alloted time) or it is not from him.

I may be misinterperating your question here so correct me please,
But again from a personal perspective when it comes to visions and
words spoken, I have had them spoken to me, things that the person saying
them wouldn't know and i have done the same for others, I have seen visions
of things that relate to someone and is for them and i actaully had a friend
who was what we know as a prophet and i knew that what he said was from God
so it really matters not who the seer or the sayer is but what is seen and
what is said and who it is said to,God is a God of relevant things,am i
way off to what you are asking?

Anyway, i suck at typing and my fingers are protesting but i hope that
i have made sense in some way...

Regards

Violet

reply to post by AQuestion

I also like to point out that 2,000 years ago it was said that the word of God would be spread throughout the whole world and that once that happened there would be a falling away from the church. A rather odd prediction if one thinks about it. Why would a religion believe that it would be heard world wide and that just as that happened people would stop following, yet, that is exactly what we are seeing.

My understanding of this is that 'the word of God' is the Golden Rule, and that kindness and humility are the answer. Therefore, 'church' is not required, because everyone already knows and behaves correctly without the need for 'church'. Likewise with 'religion'....
these are constructs with multiple agendas and humans who are benefiting from the superstitious fear of the people who won't or can't see past the 'rules' given by human leaders.

When the whole world is awakened to the common good, and the benevolent behavior that is representative of the 'Divine' that is within each of us, there will be no need for those leaders, or their buildings or rules any longer.

The Bible claims that Jesus said one should worship alone, privately, to find the Divine, the Holy Spirit that dwells within each of us, and not to concern oneself with the chastising received from others who insist on a certain method of doing so.

Originally posted by SaturnFX
Heya. Got some questions for you.

I ask, please don't carpet bomb quotes from the bible unless absolutely necessary or requested to back up the claim with actual supporting passages.

OK, I promise. No Bible quotes. I am a Pagan/Wiccan, for lack of a better word.

1) Does it matter if you get the absolutely correct name of God or Jesus...aka, proper pronounciations and such, or can I simply refer to God as Odin and Jesus as Thor (fact...Gods name is not God, and Jesus is not jesus...just what we westerners call it...so, we already have made up names anyhow)
Explain why (or why not) it matters what name we place on the concepts

None whatsoever. The Ultimate Divine Source is unknowable,
unfathomable. All we here on Earth have is Avatars. We Humans tend to Humanize our Deities, I guess to make them seem closer to us, and we give them human names, according to our desires. For instance, Jesus was not considered to be a God until the Council decided it to be so. Before that, he was just a Wise Rabbi. And sometime Magickian. And sometime Necromancer.

2) What ceremonies do matter, and what doesn't? (aka, marriage, eucharist. sabbath day, etc). and why do some matter and others don't

Well, for myself, I celebrate Yuletime, always fun to watch the kids, no matter how old you get. The celebration of the Goddess Easter is important, it is Spring, time to plant, and fertilize. And of course All Hallows. My favorite of the yearly holidays. Dress up like monsters and terrorize the neighbourhood. And get candy for doing it. Great fun.

3) Why is the deity of the old testiment so angry, but jesus is such a likeable guy?

Clearly many different authors and many different sources. I have seen very little evidence that Jesus ever existed, and believe him to be a composite of many Wise Teachers of the time. The Biblical God Yahweh to be a Dragon. Click the link, that's Bible evidence there. So, basically, I cannot trust any of the Biblical Gods, and there are many, at least 18 in the KJV alone. I see noting of any of them that truly deserves worship.

4) If revelations is a series of visions given to a simple man, does this mean anyone with visions = just as credible as the initial seer? Why or why not?

The Island of Patmos is still today covered in Red Cap Mushrooms. Eat a few of those, and anyone will have a "revelation." Credibility is in the eye of the beholder, I guess. I have the gift/curse of visions myself. But as I am not a Christian, and I never say that God/Jesus gave these visions to me, they are simply disregarded and satanic ramblings told me by Demons. I am pretty much stopped telling people about them.

reply to post by SaturnFX


Ok, I see.

Good question. I don't know.

Thanks folks, good thread, and good respect paid everyone else.
As far as having a general understanding of believers views on the question, I guess by reading this thread, there is no overall theme on how they believe...so, everyone sort of has their own unique perspectives..from a hardcore book fueled viewpoint, to a more contemplative and liberal view that allows concessions in respect to the time authored and the environment.

Anyhow, cheers all, and let us all thank Odin/God/Bob for a good chat.

reply to post by wildtimes


Dear wildtimes,

My understanding of this is that 'the word of God' is the Golden Rule, and that kindness and humility are the answer. Therefore, 'church' is not required, because everyone already knows and behaves correctly without the need for 'church'. Likewise with 'religion'....

Unfortunately words get in the way. The "church" is not an organization or a building, it is the "body of believers". The word as it is commonly used to refer to a building is merely poor usage on the part of most people. As for many pastors, they attempt to "preach" and that has come to mean tell people what they should do, we are supposed to teach, which is to show people different ways to look at a thing. While we are to seek to know Jesus in our hearts, we are also told that believers should share in things including fellowship. It says that where two or more are gathered in his name, there he is also.

Our "church" is merely rented space in a building owned by another "church". We made the conscious decision that we would rather spend our contributions feeding people than getting a building exclusively for us. If we had thousands of members, we might need to get a building; but, that is not what we are interested in. That is my way of saying that we don't condemn others for having buildings, just not our mission.

As for "religion", the word really means belief, everyone has beliefs. The current use of the word refers to the dogma or a particular sect. Being non-sectarian, as I am, does not mean that I don't have beliefs. In fact, the other pastor and I frequently disagree on minor points and usually after enough discussion we find that the disagreements are definitional and in slightly different understandings of certain words.

The person I co-pastor with told me a wonderful story. He said imagine that aliens on another planet decided that their lives were unfulfilled and they thought that having a "religion" might help (a good ATS story, lol). They send two of them to earth to look at different Christians. The first one comes back and says that the group he looked at were loving and caring and giving and didn't really believe in anything, they had no firm beliefs or rules to live by. The second one goes back and said that the group he looked at had very strong beliefs and rules and were hateful without any love in their hearts. The aliens decided to combine the two and everything worked out fine. A pretty fair explanation of what we see in the church today, a failure to combine the two and that is why people are leaving churches and the churches are dying. By the way, he read the story in a book and I don't know the name of the book. Peace.

reply to post by AQuestion

A pretty fair explanation of what we see in the church today, a failure to combine the two and that is why people are leaving churches and the churches are dying. By the way, he read the story in a book and I don't know the name of the book. Peace.

Nicely said. You made me smile. I will reiterate: the only 'rule' we need is the 'Golden' one. I appreciate and respect your outreach and efforts as a pastor to comfort those who feel lost.
Peace, and Namaste
--wildtimes

reply to post by wildtimes


Dear wildtimes,

Nicely said. You made me smile. I will reiterate: the only 'rule' we need is the 'Golden' one.

Thanks and I agree with the one rule and it is the same, "Love God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself". Same thought, just a different part. As far a pastoring, I was tricked into it by a guy that started churches all over North and South America and that is the truth. Peace.

To the original posting:

New to this forum but well-versed in Bible, so very able to answer what is there for those who care to hear, let's not get personal though.

After reading many of the thoughts, some very accurate I must say and from scripture, here is my thoughts:

1) If you want to address 'God" as in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob whose son is the "Root of Jesse" aka Jesus of the NT, then it matters immensely HOW you address HIM, see Exodus 20, first commandment. I.e. if you want to talk to God use respect. Otherwise talk to whoever, however, first looking at that religion's text for how-to-address their deity. But God in the Bible says none will be held guiltless who use his name carelessly (reminds me to watch it myself!)

2) Rituals are there for reasons. I am a Christian who has recently studied in-depth the importance of the Jewish holy-days and has had the honor to practice a few in terms of how Jesus fulfilled there prophetic meaning...i.e. Passover celebration as Jesus being our Passover Lamb.
Folks in cults have rituals, they mean a lot to them and by them power into dark realms (which I am forced to believe exist since I believe in God and Jesus, who He himself cast out many demons). Every thing around us has meaning, if you see it and let it. I am closer to God when I take the Lord's supper, remembering his sacrifice. I also know what the "bird" means in 5 o'clock traffic. One's a blessing, the other a curse.

3) God OT and NT is one and the same....Jesus being the fulfillment of the Law, see Matthew chap 5-7 sermon on the mount. It is one of the most difficult obstacles for those who don't God yet to see though. In Revelation even He is Merciful even while Righteous. In other words, he does deal out death and judgment, one bowl and seal at a time. After each though, there is the HOPE of repentance for those not destroyed in the previous judgment. Harsh, but grace nonetheless. I know if I was in charge, there have been days I would have fire-bombed the whol planet and been done with all the horror humans inflict on each other. Glad God's in charge and not my PMS-self at times!!! Thank God for grace, we're still here.

4) Finally on the note of Revelation: The source matters! God gave that revelation to John, which if you are interested is mirrored in Daniel of the OT. People today CAN and DO have visions. I believe many have them. I am open-minded and curious enough to listen. Of course I accept nothing that does not align with scripture - old and new. If it is from God, author of life itself, it will not be contradictory to other things from the same God....although many believe God is nothing but contradictions.

So consider the source of the visions and ultimately, IF they come true. Some of God's Revelation has YET to be put to the test. Whether he comes or I go, I know where I stand. Yeah God! Hope this helps...

1) Does it matter if you get the absolutely correct name of God or Jesus...aka, proper pronounciations and such, or can I simply refer to God as Odin and Jesus as Thor (fact...Gods name is not God, and Jesus is not jesus...just what we westerners call it...so, we already have made up names anyhow)
Explain why (or why not) it matters what name we place on the concepts

Yes it does matter. Would you call a Chevrolet a Mitsubishi, or a vacuum cleaner a toaster? The name Jesus comes directly from the bible. Sure it has probably been anglicised to make it easier to pronounce for us, but the one name means we are all talking about the one person (God in this case) God the father has no name as a deliberate sign of respect. His name in aramaic is YHWH. The Jews were so terrified of being unworthy of saying his name that they deliberately changed it to Yahweh when it is really supposed to be Yehowah (Jehovah in english) So using Odin and Thor are not correct terms as they refer to separate deities with different identities.

2) What ceremonies do matter, and what doesn't? (aka, marriage, eucharist. sabbath day, etc). and why do some matter and others don't

This is all a matter of conjecture. At the end of the day the most important thing for a believer to do is maintain dialogue with God (prayer) As I was raised a Catholic, we were told the most important ceremonies were Mass and receiving holy communion, confession and penance. There are many others like Baptism, confirmation, marriage etc etc and they are all very important too but each one has its own special significance and can only be understood in it's fullest by a Christian who truly believes in Christ.

3) Why is the deity of the old testiment so angry, but jesus is such a likeable guy?

Maybe because God is not human but Jesus is (well 1/2 anyway) I personally believe that if you read between the lines that you begin to understand that God realised that he may have created us, but he doesn't 'get' us. i.e. all the smiting and direct interference was getting him nowhere. So he thought he would try something new and send his son down to us to be human like us and gather some intel on the human condition. Still didn't work as far as convincing us to live better lives as a race, but was great for PR

4) If revelations is a series of visions given to a simple man, does this mean anyone with visions = just as credible as the initial seer? Why or why not?

Depends what you mean here. There are many false prophecies and visions out there too - the 'fruits' of the vision are the way to discern it's integrity and origin. i.e. does the contents of the vision lead me closer to God and Christ, or does it cloud the path, confuse me or lead me away?