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Hello Mr. president, Abortion Is Murder! Life Begins At Fertilization! That's A Fact [snip]!

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posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 03:27 PM
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Originally posted by jjkenobi
Here are my two cents on the topic...

How do you tell if someone is alive? Heartbeat. If they aren't flat lined, they are technically alive. Could be in a coma or a vegetable but they are still legally considered alive.

What age does a fetus's heart start beating? I think about six weeks.

Problem solved.


actually after 18 days and after 21 days it starts pumping.

Problem solved? I dont think so..




posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 03:28 PM
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reply to post by paxnatus
 


"By defending Roe vs. Wade, Obama upholds and advocates abortion, which is the same as destroying human life"

Abortions are decisions made by strangers..

I'm more insulted at what's done in my name... obmaos retro-active drone abortions of grown-babies.. its a grown child, not a choice! Lack of due process means like a fetus, grown-babies get no voice or say so..

Lets not forget he's responsible for the torture and indefinite detention of grown-babies



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 03:28 PM
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Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by Maslo
 


Fine all life is not sacred a fetus isn't life glad we clear that up.

Next time i hear about how immoral War and Capital Punishment is it will fall on deaf ears.

The ever redefining line of justifiable homicide.
edit on 25-1-2012 by neo96 because: (no reason given)


War is sometimes justified.
Capital punishment should not be allowed because justice is not perfect and it may be dangerous to give government such privilege. Otherwise I think sometimes it could be justified too.

Killing sentient life is immoral. Fetus has brain waves after 5th month of development. Thats where the line should be drawn.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 03:29 PM
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reply to post by beezzer
 




Nope. Again.

It's about personal responsibility. I think that people get abortions because they don't want to take responsibility for their actions. The government agrees with them. The government has made it okay for people NOT to take responsibility for their actions.

I can't make it any simpler than that. (unless I type in crayon)




There you go again, over simplifying and generalizing in black and white and thinking you have the moral high ground.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 03:30 PM
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reply to post by Maslo
 


The difference between War and Abortion one can get the hell out of Dodge and the other can't do squat.

One can fight back and the other get's a coat hanger.

Given a choice War other than no chance in hell.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 03:30 PM
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Originally posted by jjkenobi
Here are my two cents on the topic...

How do you tell if someone is alive? Heartbeat. If they aren't flat lined, they are technically alive. Could be in a coma or a vegetable but they are still legally considered alive.

What age does a fetus's heart start beating? I think about six weeks.

Problem solved.


Nope, modern definition of death is brain death. Heart can still be beating (thats where heart transplants come from).

What age does a fetus's brain start working (brain waves)? 5th month.
Problem solved.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 03:33 PM
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Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by Maslo
 


The difference between War and Abortion one can get the hell out of Dodge and the other can't do squat.

One can fight back and the other get's a coat hanger.

Given a choice War other than no chance in hell.


The main difference, relevant for our debate, is that one is sentient, the other is not.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 03:34 PM
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Originally posted by windword

There you go again, over simplifying and generalizing in black and white and thinking you have the moral high ground.


Sometimes things are simple. And it's not the moral high ground. It's called being pragmatic. Practical.

As I've said before, abortion (killing unborn babies) is legal. People have the option to avoid the responsibility that their actions created.

It's a sad testment on society when people prefer this to responsible actions. But that is our society today.

If there is an easy way out, take it.

_________________________________________________________________

With that, I'm off to bed. Have to work in the morning. I'll pick up on this delightful little gem of a thread in the morning.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 03:38 PM
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If a child is meant to be born, it will be born. If not, it won't. No need for any laws of any kind. Its just how the universe works. Sure there is free will, though thats a whole other discussion lol.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 03:43 PM
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reply to post by paxnatus
 


Why don't you worry about issues that affect ALL Americans instead of getting hung up on abortion?

This country really is pathetic when people are easily distracted by their desire to strip a woman of her reproductive rights.

It's even worse that there's WOMEN who support taking rights away from other women!



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 03:46 PM
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As is proven by reading this thread - abortion is a very emotive subject. Not something that is ever going to get a black and white answer to. As someone pointed out you cannot legislate against behaviour. Banning something just confounds the problem - just look at Ireland and all the stories of back street abortionists and the terrible damage that was done to legions of women, young and old. Even looking at the old prohibition era - banning alcohol didn't stop consumption - now did it?

Whether you are pro choice or pro life - you have to realise that in some circumstances it is the responsible choice. And I might add not an easy one. People who think that having an abortion is the easy way out have NEVER had to take that decision.

Its very easy to judge from afar - divorced from the emotional issues that go with pregnancy and the raising of a child. Be they whole or ability restricted.

And please don't preach about the responsibility of the woman - because as far as I understand - it takes two to make a baby.

And I am fully aware that there have been occasions where the prospective father has wanted the child but the prospective mother hasn't. I believe these issues need to be talked through with the respective couples. Councilling. If they can't - then I'm afraid I side with the woman. It is she after all that carries the burden in this.

There is no such thing as a 'one size fits all'. However, as far as the UK is concerned, I believe the law gives us a general fit. Which I am happy with.

May you nor your daughters ever have to face this awful and emotional issue.

In peace
Shel



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 03:50 PM
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I am against Obama on this issue. But it is not enough for me to support Republicans who only use this issue to get votes. And I am not a one issue voter.

Life, in all animals, starts at conception. You can find this in any biology book.

People who want to justify abortion rely on philosophy instead of science for their justifications.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 04:00 PM
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If you're against abortion, you might as well vote for that homophobe Rick Santorum.

Seriously, pro-life people sicken the # out of me.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 04:01 PM
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Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
I am against Obama on this issue. But it is not enough for me to support Republicans who only use this issue to get votes. And I am not a one issue voter.

Life, in all animals, starts at conception. You can find this in any biology book.

People who want to justify abortion rely on philosophy instead of science for their justifications.


Science claims that humans should be valuable from conception? Science is able to make value statements?

You rely on philosophy or morality just like others, everytime you make a value statement (as opposed to fact statement).



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 04:12 PM
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reply to post by Indigo5
 


You have NO clue what you are talking about! Guess Hipocrates was full of #e too! If it bothers you so much
that I took this stand, why are you reading the thread?

I'm not a politically correct kind of girl. Don't worry the way society is headed you'll get your chance to bow down. After all you will be disposable!

Pax



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 04:14 PM
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Originally posted by beezzer

Originally posted by windword

There you go again, over simplifying and generalizing in black and white and thinking you have the moral high ground.


Sometimes things are simple. And it's not the moral high ground. It's called being pragmatic. Practical.






Merriam Webster
b : opinionated
2
: relating to matters of fact or practical affairs often to the exclusion of intellectual or artistic matters : practical as opposed to idealistic, pragmatic men of power have had no time or inclination to deal with social morality


Right, simplistic, black and white, "my way or the highway," I'm right you're wrong.......pragmatic

"Women close your legs or suffer your god given consequences!"



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 04:32 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 04:35 PM
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Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
I am against Obama on this issue. But it is not enough for me to support Republicans who only use this issue to get votes. And I am not a one issue voter.

Life, in all animals, starts at conception. You can find this in any biology book.

People who want to justify abortion rely on philosophy instead of science for their justifications.


I think you are confusing "life" with "Human life" or "personhood".

I asked this on Pax's thread yesterday...what is "Human Life"?

Tumors are replicating human cells..

Ears and simple organs can be grown in labs...replicating cells with genetic instructions.

Yes at the time of conception, there is "Life", but is it a "human life" in the sense of personhood?

There is life in the swimming sperm as well, almost awareness in the way they compete to penetrate the egg with various strategies.

Do condemns kill the unborn?

"Life" or "personhood"?

Certainly at some point in the womb "personhood" or "human life" or in theological terms, a "soul" takes residence...but when?

Cell replication...even with genetic instruction...does not constitute a "Person". That does not occur until the bare required physical facilities have emerged to house a minimum awareness IMO.

For relatively "scientific" purposes as opposed to pure "philosophical" purposes I believe this happens around the begining of the 2nd tri-mester since that is the time that spontaneous abortions/misscarriages (natures way of protecting the mother or simply starting the process over in hopes of a better biologic outcome) fall from 50% of implantations to near Zero! When all of a sudden abortion/misscarriage seems an option that the body/nature/god/evolution suddenly and dramatically ceases to excercise.

Now I know all of that is not easy fodder for the extremists to engage in, but it is an argument that doesn't involve religious or liberal intransience all the same.
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posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 04:41 PM
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I happen to know a few Pro-Life friends who have chosen abortion in their personal lives. Ironically it has not changed their political stance as they see themselves as exceptions. They all had similar feelings... And said, they are pro-life and feel abortion is murder, (and now carry this burden that they feel they killed their unborn child) but they ultimately felt abortion was the right decision for everyone involved, including the child. Actually one of those friends now considers themself to be pro-choice politically, pro-life personally.

So, I would not be surprised if this is a common trait... that a pro-lifer is strongly pro-life, until they find themselves in a situation where they thankfully have options... and, with a heavy heart, find themselves making a pro-choice decision. This is the way people are.

It is not only presidents and military commanders who are faced with life and death tough decisions. Normal people can be faced with this too and carry that burden with them the rest of their lives.
edit on 25-1-2012 by spiritualzombie because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 04:50 PM
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Originally posted by Maslo

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
I am against Obama on this issue. But it is not enough for me to support Republicans who only use this issue to get votes. And I am not a one issue voter.

Life, in all animals, starts at conception. You can find this in any biology book.

People who want to justify abortion rely on philosophy instead of science for their justifications.


Science claims that humans should be valuable from conception? Science is able to make value statements?

You rely on philosophy or morality just like others, everytime you make a value statement (as opposed to fact statement).


Science claims life...all animal life, begins at conception.

Please review basic biology and the life cycle.

I don't need to pick an arbitrary bodily function such as heartbeat or brainwaves...biology defines the life cycle already...I see no need to alter that.






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