Hello Mr. president, Abortion Is Murder! Life Begins At Fertilization! That's A Fact [snip]!

reply to post by paxnatus


That does not in any way contradict what I said. That scientific article snip you posted is claiming that human life begins @ conception. I have already agreed with this. Of course it's life. However, it is not developed life. I can say the same thing about an amoeba. A zygote has one cell. "People" are not comprised of one cell. "People" are out of the womb, breathe on their own. eat and eliminate.

Nowhere does the article somehow prove that my opinion is wrong. It cannot be proven wrong because this is a matter of opinion. I was never debating the issue of life. I wasn't comparing the pre embryonic stage to a tennis shoe or a brick. My view is that it is not murder because the "life" is undeveloped and not a person.

Originally posted by Gorman91
And she chose to have sex. So she bares the consequences.

I agree with you, and personally, under no circumstances would I have an abortion, but there for the grace of god go I. And anyway, what about the 'he' in this situation, is he going to bare the consequences too. It does, after all take two.

Originally posted by FissionSurplus
Why is it that the very people who preach on ad nauseum about being "pro life" are the same ones who rabidly support the death penalty, and having our military go in and kill innocent people in other countries that are not Christian?

The hypocrisy astounds me.

It is SO EASY to get all worked up about the life of a fetus, isn't it? YOU don't have to take care of it, YOU don't have to pay for it or raise it, so it is an easy way to feel superior and closer to the spirit you imagine is God by crying on and on about imaginary fetuses and their feelings.

I personally want to see every person who wants to see abortion illegal spend their time on making the lives of these unwanted children better. You care so much about life in the womb, spew a lot of hot air about the sanctity of life, and then forget about them once they're born. Yeah, you'll show up on a message board and cry over a case like Casey Anthony, or one of the many other mothers who end up killing their unwanted children, but what have you done to make it better for these women economically and emotionally so they don't feel driven to off their offspring?

Long ago I had a temporary job at a mortuary, pulling out old files for mormons to put on microfiche for their genealogy project. This mortuary had been around since the 1890s. I noticed that there were a great deal of young women who died of blood poisoning from botched and self-induced abortions, notably around the time of wars. I guess their boyfriends came home on leave and left a little of themselves behind when they shipped back out.

Roe V. Wade was put into law to stop the back-alley and self-induced abortions that were rampant in American society at that time and were killing record numbers of young women with hideous, painful blood infections. It was done to save lives, believe it or not, because women were going to try and terminate the pregnancy whether it was legal or not.

Even in the ancient days, if women couldn't terminate the pregnancy with herbs and falls on their stomachs, they would birth the child and then toss them in the river.

BOTTOM LINE: If you don't believe in abortion, then don't get one. Whatever somebody does is between themselves and God. YOU are not qualified to be the judge. If you want to put your money where your mouth is, start adopting babies and taking in teen mothers to help them. Otherwise, your words are just so much pious, pompous hot air.

I think I love you.

reply to post by Biliverdin


Duh he does. If he runs, you arrest him. You made it, you pay for it.

There is only one or two reasons why abortion would make sense. Rape and Threat to the mother's life. That's about all I can think of.

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by Biliverdin

 

Duh he does. If he runs, you arrest him. You made it, you pay for it.

There is only one or two reasons why abortion would make sense. Rape and Threat to the mother's life. That's about all I can think of.

You make absolutely no allowances for youth and ignorance then? One strike and you're out?

reply to post by Biliverdin


This is assuming under a national education system for such things.

A federal investigation that proves the child was not properly educated should follow that the state must pay for the child. That should make states manage their schools properly.

Irregardless, ignorance does not justify murder.

Originally posted by Gorman91
This is assuming under a national education system for such things.

A federal investigation that proves the child was not properly educated should follow that the state must pay for the child. That should make states manage their schools properly.

Irregardless, ignorance does not justify murder.

Assuming...ahh I see...so what about now, with none of those things effectively in place...as opposed to in your cloud cuckoo land, where everyone has access to good education...a stable home life...love and nurturing...that world, as nice as it sounds, does not exist...so how do we deal with the problem NOW?

reply to post by Biliverdin


Well I said nothing of a loving enviornment.

Quite frankly, I think the best of humanity comes from broken homes. I couldn't give a rat's behind about love and nurturing. It's overrated. People whom experience death and trama early in life are more able to adapt to situations after that. Happy go luck children usually end up being the common idiot who just breed and work and don't know anything about the world outside their little neighborhood.

Quite frankly, a loving environment only sets up a child to be hit even harder when he goes into the real world

These issues are purely theoretical. If I can change something now, I am going to change whatever I feel like. Not limited to merely just abortion.



Ergo, If you're not raped and your not going to die, but you don't want your kid, sucks to be you.

I honestly don't have pity for such cases as you mentioned. In such cases, either the people having sex are freaking retarded, their community is a crap hole, or both. And in such cases, you reap what you sow. Either follow government regulation of education, or accept the hell you put yourself into.

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by Biliverdin

 

Well I said nothing of a loving enviornment.

Quite frankly, I think the best of humanity comes from broken homes. I couldn't give a rat's behind about love and nurturing. It's overrated. People whom experience death and trama early in life are more able to adapt to situations after that. Happy go luck children usually end up being the common idiot who just breed and work and don't know anything about the world outside their little neighborhood.

Quite frankly, a loving environment only sets up a child to be hit even harder when he goes into the real world

These issues are purely theoretical. If I can change something now, I am going to change whatever I feel like. Not limited to merely just abortion.



Ergo, If you're not raped and your not going to die, but you don't want your kid, sucks to be you.

I honestly don't have pity for such cases as you mentioned. In such cases, either the people having sex are freaking retarded, their community is a crap hole, or both. And in such cases, you reap what you sow. Either follow government regulation of education, or accept the hell you put yourself into

What a horrible view of life you have, why on earth would you want anyone to be born into it? So you can share your suffering perhaps? I have never felt so much pity for someone in my whole life, I can't imagine what you have been through to feel that way. I am so sorry.

reply to post by Biliverdin


I went through nothing.

I observed the world and learned. I prepared, an avoided all what I say. Because I saw how the world was when I was young and prepared accordingly. Meanwhile most of my friends are now doomed to dead ends and despair. Have pity on them. They believed in your silly world view.

I now have the responsibility of getting far in life and helping them out. Because I'm a human and not a dick.

Place your pity on those that are about to go into the world expecting something, only to be shot in the foot and enslaved.

Oh wait. We already see the beginnings of that. It's called the occupy movement.

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by Biliverdin

 

I went through nothing.

I observed the world and learned. I prepared, an avoided all what I say. Because I saw how the world was when I was young and prepared accordingly. Meanwhile most of my friends are now doomed to dead ends and despair. Have pity on them. They believed in your silly world view.

I now have the responsibility of getting far in life and helping them out. Because I'm a human and not a dick.

Place your pity on those that are about to go into the world expecting something, only to be shot in the foot and enslaved.

Oh wait. We already see the beginnings of that. It's called the occupy movement.

You and I must live in parallel universes or something then. I suppose it must be a state of mind.

reply to post by Gorman91


Rape cannot justify abortion if we assume a fetus has the same value and rights as born persons.
The only justification for allowing killing of another person is direct threat to life or health. Nothing else. Normal pregnancy is neither, even if it resulted from rape. Nothing can justify killing of innocent non-threatening person, not even emotional harm from rape pregnancy, assuming the fetus has the same value as born persons.

By acknowledging that abortion in case of rape should be allowed, you inherently prove the fetus is considered something less than a normal person, since it can be legally killed even if its innocent and does not directly threaten anyone.
Being pro-life, but pro-choice in case of rape is thus hypocritical. It proves you dont really mean it that fetuses have the same value as born people, and have the same rights, otherwise the only abortion allowed should be when it threatens the life of the mother.

Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by Gorman91

 

Rape cannot justify abortion if we assume a fetus has the same value and rights as born persons.
The only justification for allowing killing of another person is direct threat to life or health. Nothing else. Normal pregnancy is neither, even if it resulted from rape. Nothing can justify killing of innocent non-threatening person, not even emotional harm from rape pregnancy, assuming the fetus has the same value as born persons.

By acknowledging that abortion in case of rape should be allowed, you inherently prove the fetus is considered something less than a normal person, since it can be legally killed even if its innocent and does not directly threaten anyone.
Being pro-life, but pro-choice in case of rape is thus hypocritical. It proves you dont really mean it that fetuses have the same value as born people, and have the same rights, otherwise the only abortion allowed should be when it threatens the life of the mother.

Yes, except we don't assume that the fetus has the same value and rights as born persons. We start going down this path and it will not be good. The universe wasn't made for EVERYTHING to thrive. There are those that live, those that die, thats the way life works. If we has humans try using technology to save EVERYONE from death, or medical problems, or whatever, the human race will die. Simple as that. As educated sentient beings, we must realize we are destroying our planet, as well as ourselves, and although you may get that "goody two shoes" feeling when you talk about saving all the poor helpless fetuses, your actively eroding living, breathing, talking, people's rights. Not everyone believes that the fetus holds the same rights as a devoloped person( careful choice of words, this does not necessarily mean borned persons) and maybe we should as a nation address that question and take it to a vote. After all it is the people who are in control here. And it is up to society to make that determination not any ONE of us. But remember there is no double standard here, if you choose pro life, your going to be held to the same consequences if your raped, or your spouse is raped, and then you will have to prove it. Do I think there are tons of women out there, who are just having sex for fun, getting pregnant, and then getting the abortion, no. But that seems to be the generallity applied here. It is rare when you find a person like that, and we shouldn't be dictating our laws based off a small % of the population. And of course having the law in place, wouldn't stop people from doing their own abortions. Think prohibition, but of abortions. IMO it doesn't make sense to put laws in place to outlaw abortion.

If life begins at fertilization, and a the life in question is only two celled organism, wouldn't masturbation be tantamount to murder by that logic?

Just Sayin'

reply to post by Osiris1953


Yes, so now I deem you to be a serial killer, punishment hereby therein is DEATH. Good Day.

reply to post by andersensrm


I agree. I am pro-choice. I dont assume that the fetus has the same value as born persons too. I just find it very hypocritical that some pro-life people say so, but then support abortions in case of rape, which runs contrary to such claim, as persons cannot be killed when they dont directly threaten anyone, thats just basic human rights.
It cant be both ways. Either they are persons, and then rape abortion must be outlawed, or rape abortion can be allowed, but then fetuses must obviously not be considered persons (and if they are not persons, they are things, and thus there is no reason to ban other abortions anyway).

reply to post by Maslo


Nicely Said. It is sad that people want double standards for EVERYTHING now.

reply to post by Biliverdin


No, it is scales. I've been many places, and the higher up you go in authority, the more you hate the system and its people.

Ignorance is bliss. Choose to leave it, and you will never be the same again.

reply to post by Osiris1953


No because they cannot do anything.

Every cell has a function. Unless its going to become an adult, it is not murder.

Would you charge someone who punched you as attempted manslaughter? Or a brain damage case if he punched you in the gut?

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by Osiris1953

 

No because they cannot do anything.

Every cell has a function. Unless its going to become an adult, it is not murder.

Would you charge someone who punched you as attempted manslaughter? Or a brain damage case if he punched you in the gut?

edit on 30-1-2012 by Gorman91 because: (no reason given)

But a sperm cell, could be seen as something that is going, or has the capability to become an adult. Not by itself of course, but where do we draw the line? And then who gets to draw the line? And how thick will it be? I don't think it is the governments role to dictate what people do with their own bodies. Now I know your all about responsibility, you don't want the woman who is raped to get bypassed, but the one who was careless, and now more or less "deserves" it as punishment. But what about failed attempts in staying not pregnant. Sexual protections fail, does one have to "pay" if they took all the necessary precautions and still ended up pregnant. Or do we become the society, where sex is only for reproducing. One thing I will never understand, is how humans are somewhat better than any other living thing. So there is a double standard for life, with humans. I don't think this is right. What makes US so great, that even such a simpliefied version of us, that has to be seen in a microscope, is better than any other life on Earth. If someone can tell me why it is okay to kill a cow, fly, fish, tree, plant, but it is not okay to kill a fetus, then maybe I will better understand the pro life perspective.