Hello Mr. president, Abortion Is Murder! Life Begins At Fertilization! That's A Fact [snip]!

Ats's favorite judge, Napolitano has a few words on abortion.

Please take a couple minutes and listen.

iowntheworld.com...

reply to post by Gorman91

What agenda do I have but cold, emotionless, logical, objective science?

Once again, your personal subjective moral view is not supported by science any more than all the other views. Science can guide us in moral decisions by the knowledge of foetal development, that is all. Science and logic alone CANNOT answer these questions, because ethics and morality is outside its perspective.

Fact–value distinction

Your agenda is the same as any other, to push your personal subjective moral view.

Why? The human brain is not unique and special until well after birth.

I dont see why that is supposed to matter. And in what way exactly is it not unique and special?

The only difference between a baby and a zygote is that it can kinda-sorta process what's happening. But even then it's only just barely.

And for exactly that reason, it deserves rights, among the life to live, contrary to a zygote.

cloud cuckoo land stuff. Thats crazy bonkers americans for you.

making abortion illegal will only drive it underground. Risking the lives & welfare of women who seek an abortion.

amazing some people actually think making it illegal would stop it happening.

Originally posted by sad_eyed_lady

Originally posted by dadgad
Who gives a damn about abortion.

The majority of U.S. citizens are Pro-Life. You are right in that the MSM doesn't give a damn as the largest annual march in D.C., the March for Life, this past Monday got diddy-squat coverage. A statement from Obama about how great abortion rights made big news.

bigjournalism.com...

All your moralistic crap has no value.

Sounds like a argument Hitler could make.

Not my body, not my business. We are talking about two bodies, not just the mother's.
The Jews weren't me so it was OK that they got gassed.

Stop messing with people their lives and get a hobby you hypocritical hag.

Name calling makes you look really pathetic. If you say "Who gives a damn about abortion" and you don't give a damn then why did you even post?

edit on 1/27/2012 by sad_eyed_lady because: (no reason given)

Well I give a damn about you annoying pro-lifers, who to me represent the supreme embodiment of absolute hypocrisy. You are like a plague upon this planet. Forgive my Hitlerite talk but BOY would I enjoy seeing you all thrown into outer space.

I am pro-abortion and behold: pro-euthanasia as well. Apart from the fact that I believe it to be morally just to allow these things, I also look at it from a planetarian (wtf is that!?) point of view. You see my dear. this beautiful planet of ours is over-crowded. There are too many human beings crawling around out here. And people like you are not assisting in overcoming this problem. Apparently you are not aware of the severity of this problem. You seem to be under the impression that there are endless resources available to fulfill the basic needs of these 7 billion critters on this planet. It speaks for itself that you are entirely wrong here since at least 24 000 children die of starvation each day.

Anyway. To compare abortion with the holocaust... now that is pathetic! (in reference to you calling me pathetic) Aren't you ashamed or yourself? I should report you to the Israeli Mossad. Israel doesn't like people using the Holocaust for strategic purposes. Only they are allowed to do that. It's their private intellectual property.

Now I could give a whole lecture on the benefits of abortion, the most basic one being the happiness of women. Or I could argue that abortion is in actuality more pro-life than the pro-life movement itself, because I tend to define pro-life in terms of happiness, peace of mind, prosperity and so on. For example, a raped woman, mentally and financially not prepared for motherhood forced to give birth by people like you, what kind of mother will she become, what kind of child would this become? How pro-life is that exactly? That is why I consider you all a bunch of disgusting hypocrites. And I mean it when I vow for your destruction! You are by simple definition: my intellectual enemy. And I sincerely hate you.

Good day.

Nothing you posted turns the claim that life begins at fertilization into a "fact". You're basically just voicing your OPINION. You have the right to do that of course, but calling it a "fact" is a bit silly

reply to post by beezzer


Excellent vid. The truth of the matter is so plain and simple. That's why this issue has to be insulated by layer after layer of appeals to emotion, the semantics of "choice" and any lie necessary to achieve the objective. Anyone debating this issue really should take 5 minutes to watch this vid. Informed debate on the specific issue is the best path to resolution. Rants are diversion.

reply to post by relpobre000

For anyone who thinks that banning abortion will stop the practice I implore you to google 'Kermit Gosnell' who ran an illegal backroom abortion 'clinic'.

Or look up the picture and story of 'Geraldine Santoro' who died on the floor of a hotel room after a do-it-yourself abortion attempt.

We make things like Murder and Rape illegal not because we think it will stop all cases of it, but because we judge those people that do it to be unfit for society.

I think the same of abortion. Anyone who would murder their own child is unfit for society.

Stating the fact that some demented people will attempt a self abortion isn't an argument for keeping abortion legal, rather it is an argument for questioning the sanity of a person who would do that.

Originally posted by MrXYZ
Nothing you posted turns the claim that life begins at fertilization into a "fact". You're basically just voicing your OPINION. You have the right to do that of course, but calling it a "fact" is a bit silly

I'm willing to debate you on that fact if you accept.

All biological life begins at conception...humans are no exception.

Originally posted by relpobre000
reply to post by DelMar

 

Sorry, I'm not going to be baited into a formal debate by someone who thinks it's a rape victim's responsibility to carry a child to term or that morality is derived from religion. He also frames the debate as arguing about 'killing unborn people'.

So I won't pretend that my time is worth that much but I'm certainly not going to be wasting it arguing with someone who says that 'God gave us a brain...' in a serious conversation.

When it comes down to it this is really just a religious debate. If it were based on logic and science perhaps people would realize the fallacy of trying to govern what a woman can or cannot do with her body.


I think Carl Sagan said it best:
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe."

So, keep believing but remember that as we continue into the 21st century, your outdated ideas and practices are becoming obselete.

If you are not willing to debate Beezer...debate me.

I have not brought religion into the conversation at all...just biology.

I claim that all biological life begins at conception, which includes humans.



If you'd like...we could also debate that murder is the premeditated killing of another human life outside of war or self defense in the face of clear and present danger.


Anyone???

I totally disagree with you.........not sure where I heard this, but what about the Jewish belief that a 'life' is not a 'life' until it is outside the mother's womb? just curious as to what you think of that belief.

Originally posted by BG43214
I totally disagree with you.........not sure where I heard this, but what about the Jewish belief that a 'life' is not a 'life' until it is outside the mother's womb? just curious as to what you think of that belief.

Islamic view on abortions is quite interesting, and in some ways similar to my own. It depends on the stage of foetal development.

Originally posted by BG43214
I totally disagree with you.........not sure where I heard this, but what about the Jewish belief that a 'life' is not a 'life' until it is outside the mother's womb? just curious as to what you think of that belief.

*This is my response*
It's not clear who you disagree with here so to answer your question, it doesn't matter what I or anyone else thinks about it as It's utterly irrelevant to this subject. The premise of the OP is that abortion is murder. The U.S. has laws against murder but illogically gives special protection to this case of murder. ]

edit on 28-1-2012 by DenyObfuscation because: (no reason given)

edit on 28-1-2012 by DenyObfuscation because: Technologically challenged

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher

Originally posted by MrXYZ
Nothing you posted turns the claim that life begins at fertilization into a "fact". You're basically just voicing your OPINION. You have the right to do that of course, but calling it a "fact" is a bit silly

I'm willing to debate you on that fact if you accept.

All biological life begins at conception...humans are no exception.

So... what's the argument here? Biological life begins at conception.. so.. ?

This is why I wish there were more Unitarian Universalists, I think their view on it is dead-on.

The Unitarian Universalist Church strongly supports abortion rights. In 1978, the Unitarian Universalist Church passed a resolution that declared, "...[the] right to choice on contraception and abortion are important aspects of the right of privacy, respect for human life and freedom of conscience of women and their families."[41] The Church had released earlier statements in 1963 and 1968 favoring the reform of restrictive abortion laws.

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by relpobre000

 

The topic is killing unborn people.

Do you, will you accept my challenge?

This is the crux you're not understanding. "unborn people"??
How is conception after 2 weeks "people".

An embryo is not a person.............yet.
An 8 month old fetus is certainly a life, but still not a person.

You are consistently trying to sway the debate by using language such as "You want to kill people", and "You like murder". These buzz phrases have nothing to do with the debate. In fact, to even suggest that a woman who aborts is somehow enjoying it, is at the least a vast embellishment and at it's worst it's a flat out ludicrous lie.
Like Anee stated earlier; abortion is often a very unselfish act.

You are essentially saying that a single celled zygote has more of a right to choose than an actual woman.
This type of thought is completely ludicrous with nothing more than what you think religion requires of us. Religion is good and all, but you are taking it to the point where blind obedience of your interpretation is masking what actually takes place here on Earth. Reality. Awful situations. Nothing is black and white.

reply to post by paxnatus

Abortion is not murder, every woman has the right to decide what she does with her body, I'm sorry but that's my opinion :-)

Originally posted by Shminkee Pinkee
reply to post by paxnatus

 

Abortion is not murder, every woman has the right to decide what she does with her body, I'm sorry but that's my opinion :-)

Don't apoligize. Thankfully most Americans share your opinion. I don't know whether or not this is because most Americans don't believe in talking snakes, or because they simply critically think and let others decide what's best for themselves. Either way, we have 1 freedom that Obama isn't stealing from us

reply to post by Maslo


You hve always said this, but never ever supplied the reason for. I am fully confident that sound reason and scientific fact can supply all the rights of man, outside of religion, morality, and the things men invent.

For all your terminologies, Wikipedia links, and words, you have never actually successfully countered what I have said.

Until you do, I will continue to say it. And you can go there, sit by the side lines, yell all you want about it, but clearly there are more people with this same belief every day.

I dont see why that is supposed to matter. And in what way exactly is it not unique and special?

If it isn't unique, it deserves no "special" rights we give to humans over animals.

And for exactly that reason, it deserves rights, among the life to live, contrary to a zygote.

This is not reason enough, as it pure say-so on our own opinion.

God is pretty cool with baby killing. He even had some priests doing the business for Him.

Numbers 5:11-21
Then the LORD said to Moses, “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah[a] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.
“‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the LORD. Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. After the priest has had the woman stand before the LORD, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the LORD cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell.

Hosea 13:16
The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.

1 Samuel 15:3
Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.

reply to post by spinalremain

So you're a person.
I'm a person.
Hell, even corporations are "persons".

But the unborn aren't?

I beg to differ.