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New Hampshire Woman Protests the TSA

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posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 03:06 PM
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reply to post by defcon5
 


Yip well your opinion is nonsense unfortunately.

Heres a nice article

Freedom of Movement

en.wikipedia.org...

Now specificaly, Freedom of Movement under United States Law

en.wikipedia.org...

Though it does however read more like a history of how your government has stripped your admittedly vague constitutional rights to a bare minimum, there is a section on what impact the TSA are having.

Oh and your tax dollars subsidies this particular form of transportation, so, you know, your theorys on "private" companies is somewhat skewed.

Also you would probably be somewhat remiss to hear American air travel was effectively a state ran affair untill the late 70s. Kinda weird that, almost downright socialist lol. Or communist as you say in America.

edit on 25-1-2012 by Ixtab because: (no reason given)




posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 03:11 PM
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Here is another good way to protest the TSA, if you are willing to go through the scanner.



source



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 04:14 PM
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Of course if you are not as brazen as the woman in the video there is always these too.



source
edit on 25-1-2012 by herenow because: (no reason given)

edit on 25-1-2012 by herenow because: (no reason given)

edit on 25-1-2012 by herenow because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 05:00 PM
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Originally posted by defcon5
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

If I’ve said it once, I’ve said it a hundred times on this site...
Flying is not a right, its a privilege, AND your flying with a private company that has the right to set any rules it desires. If you don't like the rules, no one is forcing you to fly.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.


So, what your saying is, if an airline decided to not allow the TSA to screen its passengers, then the TSA would have to just go away?



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 06:54 PM
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reply to post by defcon5
 


Well that post was not thought out very well! TSA is not private, we pay for it. They are doing this on roads now we cannot let this go any further.

Enough with this pansy way this nation has become so afraid of nothing.

Land of the free, home of the brave?



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 07:40 PM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

reply to post by FissionSurplus
reply to post by thisguyrighthere
reply to post by LoneGunMan
 


Airlines DO pay for their security, the same way they pay both the County and Federal Aviation Authority for use of their facilities and airways. When an airline lands at a public airport, they pay by the tonnage for landing and taking off. When they rent space in a public terminal, they pay rent to the County Aviation Authority. Even if they own or build their own building, because its on Aviation Authority property, they are never allowed to fully own that building and the County Aviation Authority retains that building if the airlines ever abandons it. The only airport that I know of with different rules was Midway Airport, which was solely the property of Midway Airlines.

When you buy a ticket to fly on an airline you agree to the “Contract of Carriage”, where you AGREE to submit to the security put in place at each individual airport. This is a CONTRACT between you and the airlines, if you fail to comply you are in breach of that contract…

For example:

American Airlines Contract of Carriage
ACCEPTANCE OF PASSENGERS
American may refuse to transport you, or may remove you from your flight at any point, for one or several reasons, including but not limited to the following:
· Compliance with government requisition of space.
· Action necessary or advisable due to weather, or other conditions beyond American's control.
· Refusal to permit a search of person or property for explosives or for deadly, controlled, or dangerous weapons, articles or substances.
· Refusal to produce positive identification upon request.
· Your physical or mental condition is such that in American's sole opinion, you are rendered or likely to be rendered incapable of comprehending or complying with safety instructions without the assistance of an attendant.
· Your conduct is disorderly, abusive or violent, or you
a. Appear to be intoxicated or under the influence of drugs,
b. Attempt to interfere with any member of the flight crew,
c. Have a communicable disease that has been determined by a federal public health authority to be transmissible to other persons in the normal course of flight,
d. Refuse to obey instructions from any flight crew member,
e. Have an offensive odor not caused by a disability or illness,
f. Are clothed in a manner that would cause discomfort or offense to other passengers,
g. are barefoot, or
h. Engage in any action, voluntary or involuntary, that might jeopardize the safety of the aircraft or any of its occupants.

TSA SECURE FLIGHT PROGRAM
The Transportation Security Agency's (TSA) Secure Flight Program requires that American collect the following additional information from passengers when making a reservation to fly within, into or out of the United States and reservations for point-to-point international flights operated by U.S. based airlines:
1. Full Name (required), as it appears on government-issued I.D. approved for use when traveling
2. Date of Birth (required)
3. Gender (required)
4. Redress Number (optional)
American may cancel your reservation if the reservation does not include the required Secure Flight Passenger Data (full name, date of birth and gender) at least 72 hours prior to your scheduled departure. This cancellation policy applies to all American Airlines tickets, including tickets for our flights operated by our codeshare partners.

If you are in breach of contract, then you are responsible for damages, including forfeiting the cost of your seat. This is clearly printed in your boarding pass jacket and on the back pages of your ticket. If its an E-ticket, I am sure its included in there as well, but I don’t know specifically where.


Originally posted by herenow
Then, hopefully, many people will decide not to fly. Then maybe the airlines will get what is going on when it starts to hit their pocket book.

You are correct, this is how you can go about getting this changed. I have stated this before in other threads.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

edit on 1/25/2012 by defcon5 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 07:49 PM
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Originally posted by defcon5

Airlines DO pay for their security, the same way they pay both the County and Federal Aviation Authority for use of their facilities and airways. When an airline lands at a public airport, they pay by the tonnage for landing and taking off. When they rent space in a public terminal, they pay rent to the County Aviation Authority. Even if they own or build their own building, because its on Aviation Authority property, they are never allowed to fully own that building and the County Aviation Authority retains that building if the airlines ever abandons it. The only airport that I know of with different rules was Midway Airport, which was solely the property of Midway Airlines.



What?!?! You make the above statement after you made the following statement?




If I’ve said it once, I’ve said it a hundred times on this site... Flying is not a right, its a privilege, AND your flying with a private company that has the right to set any rules it desires. If you don't like the rules, no one is forcing you to fly.


Which is it? Private corporations rules or unfair travel laws in a public terminal?

You are making contradictory statements.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 07:57 PM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.


Originally posted by Ixtab
Freedom of Movement
en.wikipedia.org...


There is no Constitutional guarantee that allows you movement by any specific means, and this has been upheld in LOTS of case law. This is the same reason why the government makes you meet certain requirements to drive a car, and calls it a privilege. If you took this to court, they would laugh at you and tell you to drive, walk, ride a bike, or take a boat if possible. By denying you a certain type of movement, they are not denying you movement in violation of the Constitution.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.


edit on 1/25/2012 by defcon5 because: tags



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 08:00 PM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.


Originally posted by VictorVonDoom
So, what your saying is, if an airline decided to not allow the TSA to screen its passengers, then the TSA would have to just go away?

Essentially yes.
If this started to hurt the airlines financially badly enough they would get it changed, and they have the power and backing to do so.


As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 08:21 PM
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reply to post by LoneGunMan
 

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

I suggest that you go learn about how airports operate before you start trying to get condescending with me. I was an airline supervisor for quite a number of years, and am quite familiar with how they work.

The airlines are private companies, the airports are owned by the County Aviation Authority. The terminal buildings are usually also owned by the Aviation Authority. This is in case an airlines goes bankrupt, since airports have limited property, they need to be able to utilize that very valuable real estate for other airlines use.

Normally the airlines will just rent space in the terminals, until they get large enough to possibly build their own building. If they build their own building and then go bankrupt, the aviation authority retains the ownership of that building. I believe that it comes down to the fact that the County Aviation Authority of that airport ALWAYS retains the actual “real property” or “land” the building is built upon.

The companies that work inside that building are normally subcontractors that the airline hires. If there is more then one airline sharing a building, then they will often make agreements with each other to share the expenses. So, for example, the cleaning company is paid for by the airline, but since the Aviation Authority has an interest in that buildings condition they may make certain requirements of the airline. This is part of a rental contract between the Airline and the Aviation Authority.

Security was handled the same way up until 911. If you went in one terminal they might have ITS, and another may have Brinks, in the same airport. The TSA was formed to make all these companies uniform in training and procedures. However, even before the TSA, the individual security companies had to be compliant with certain standards set by the FAA , and the FAA would probe their security on a regular basis, then fine them for non-compliance.

The private airlines have always had terms in their individual “Contracts of Carriage” that stated that you had to comply with security screenings, there is nothing at all that is new about this. The agreement where you waive your rights to screening is in the contract that you agree to with the individual airlines. I have already shown you this above, and it’s a FACT. The agreement with the Aviation Authority is also a contract between them and the airlines.

Contracts trump rights, they always have. You can waive your rights via a contract, and that is exactly what you do when you fly.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 09:07 PM
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Originally posted by defcon5
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

If I’ve said it once, I’ve said it a hundred times on this site...
Flying is not a right, its a privilege, AND your flying with a private company that has the right to set any rules it desires. If you don't like the rules, no one is forcing you to fly.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.


Its not private companies making the rules now is it? No its not.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 09:21 PM
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Originally posted by defcon5
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

If I’ve said it once, I’ve said it a hundred times on this site...
Flying is not a right, its a privilege, AND your flying with a private company that has the right to set any rules it desires. If you don't like the rules, no one is forcing you to fly.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.


Wow. Could you be any more misinformed and ignorant of facts? Belie much?

Flying is not a right or a privilege, it is a product offered in the free market.

The "private company" hasn't set any of the rules, the TSA is a government agency and the government has set the rules and the private company has no say in what procedures the TSA follows.

And finally some people are forced to fly in order to keep a job. Yea your right, they should just quit their job so their kids starve.

Others are forced to fly to attend family funerals or is driving from Oregon to Florida before a body is buried in the ground something that can be done in a car? When was the last time you drove across the country in 5 hours? Should they go greyhound and be 2 days late?

I could easily just turn your argument back around on you...

Flying is not a right, it is a privilege so if you are scared a terrorist is going to blow up your plane don't fly. No one is forcing you to fly after all.

Air travel is a product, the TSA is a government agency and some people are forced to fly. Say it a thousand times if you like, repeating something ad nauseum doesn't make it correct.


edit on 25-1-2012 by sageofmonticello because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 09:24 PM
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reply to post by MrSpad
 


The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

If you read my other posts above, you agree to those procedures when you agree to the terms of the contract that exists between you and the airlines when you purchase your ticket. The airlines also have contracts that they follow with the government, which allow them to be a licensed carrier flying from an public airport.

If you want to fly without agreeing to the terms of such a contract, then hire a privately licensed pilot with a commercial rating, and fly from a private aviation facility. There is nothing preventing you from doing this…

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 09:47 PM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.


Originally posted by sageofmonticello
Wow. Could you be any more misinformed and ignorant of facts? Belie much?

Actually, I’m not misinformed at all, you in fact are.
I was an airline supervisor, working for a commercial airlines, running an airside at an international airport.


Originally posted by sageofmonticello
Flying is not a right or a privilege, it is a product offered in the free market.

You are correct, and you agree to the “terms and Conditions” of that airline when you enter into a “Contract of Carriage” with them. You agree to those terms when you provide contractual consideration to that airline (aka. You pay for your ticket).

If you missed it above, here is one airlines “Contract of Carriage”:
www.abovetopsecret.com...


Originally posted by sageofmonticello
The "private company" hasn't set any of the rules, the TSA is a government agency and the government has set the rules and the private company has no say in what procedures the TSA follows.

Sure they do. They have the right to relinquish their license to be a public aviation carrier, and work in the private sector, or fly freight.


Originally posted by sageofmonticello
And finally some people are forced to fly in order to keep a job. Yea your right, they should just quit their job so their kids starve.

Not really the governments problem what agreements you made for your job.

As far as they are concerned you can contract a private jet, with a private commercial pilot, and fly out of a private aviation terminal. You can harness trained flamingos to fly you if you wish… But you cannot fly on a commercial airliner without agreeing to the airlines contract of service, and they with the governments regulations allowing them their license.


Originally posted by sageofmonticello
Others are forced to fly to attend family funerals or is driving from Oregon to Florida before a body is buried in the ground something that can be done in a car?

Rent a private lear jet.
Heck, if you have the money, you can hire a F-104 to fly you there:
Starfighter Inc.


Originally posted by sageofmonticello
When was the last time you drove across the country in 5 hours? Should they go greyhound and be 2 days late?

You seem to not understand that none of this is the governments problem, and none of this prevents you from finding another means to get there.


Originally posted by sageofmonticello
I could easily just turn your argument back around on you...

No you cannot. You cannot because its all legal, and has case law supporting what I am saying. If it was not legal, then it would not be happening. I'm truly sorry if you disagree with this, or you don't like it, but none of that stops what I am telling you from being a legal fact.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 10:09 PM
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reply to post by defcon5
 


Wow... I don't even know where to start.

So you actually said that airlines have a say in how the TSA conducts their procedures because if they wanted to they could just go out of business?!? Are you serious?

I mention how air travel is a product not a privilege or a right and your response to me is about contracts? How is that a response? Maybe you are getting confused with who you are responding to?

I explain to you that some people are forced to fly (remember, you said nobody is forced to fly) and your response is the government doesn't care and they should just buy their own plane? seriously?

Then you say that I can't flip your words around on you because it is all legal. Was my statement illegal? My statement makes just as much sense as yours. deal with it.

Your argument gets weaker every time you decide to post another response. Either you are so worked up that you had no ability to comprehend my reply to you or you are so ignorant to the realities of other peoples lives that you would actually suggest that buying your own plane is a viable alternative to commercial air travel.

My guess is a little bit of both. Now would you mind replying to what I actually said to you or am I just wasting my time. In case you missed it you said ...



Flying is not a right, its a privilege, AND your flying with a private company that has the right to set any rules it desires. If you don't like the rules, no one is forcing you to fly.


and my response was




Air travel is a product, the TSA is a government agency and some people are forced to fly.

Flying is not a right, it is a privilege so if you are scared a terrorist is going to blow up your plane don't fly. No one is forcing you to fly after all.



nothing in your response has made anything I said less true nor have you even addressed what I said despite your large amount of quoting. At what point will you bother to check in with reality on this subject? I can wait.


edit on 25-1-2012 by sageofmonticello because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 11:11 PM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.


Originally posted by sageofmonticello
So you actually said that airlines have a say in how the TSA conducts their procedures because if they wanted to they could just go out of business?!? Are you serious?

You bet, and I’m legally correct.
The FAA has the right to regulate rules regarding air travel, and they have the right to issue an Airline Air Carriers Operating Certificate. Having this type of Certificate is not a legal right, it’s a privilege, the same as having a driver’s license is. Nowhere in the Constitution does it say that you have the right to fly or to operate an airline flying civilian passengers.

Under their airline air carriers operating certificate the airlines have to agree to run their operations in accordance with certain rules set by the FAA. The AOC is a legal contract between the US government and each individual airline. They can set any rules they so desire as a requirement to receive your AOC, and your rights are to either follow those rules or chose another line of business.


Originally posted by sageofmonticello
I mention how air travel is a product not a privilege or a right and your response to me is about contracts? How is that a response? Maybe you are getting confused with who you are responding to?

Because it is all about contracts.
This:

American Airlines Contract of Carriage
ACCEPTANCE OF PASSENGERS
American may refuse to transport you, or may remove you from your flight at any point, for one or several reasons, including but not limited to the following:
· Compliance with government requisition of space.
· Action necessary or advisable due to weather, or other conditions beyond American's control.
· Refusal to permit a search of person or property for explosives or for deadly, controlled, or dangerous weapons, articles or substances.
· Refusal to produce positive identification upon request.
· Your physical or mental condition is such that in American's sole opinion, you are rendered or likely to be rendered incapable of comprehending or complying with safety instructions without the assistance of an attendant.
· Your conduct is disorderly, abusive or violent, or you
a. Appear to be intoxicated or under the influence of drugs,
b. Attempt to interfere with any member of the flight crew,
c. Have a communicable disease that has been determined by a federal public health authority to be transmissible to other persons in the normal course of flight,
d. Refuse to obey instructions from any flight crew member,
e. Have an offensive odor not caused by a disability or illness,
f. Are clothed in a manner that would cause discomfort or offense to other passengers,
g. are barefoot, or
h. Engage in any action, voluntary or involuntary, that might jeopardize the safety of the aircraft or any of its occupants.

TSA SECURE FLIGHT PROGRAM
The Transportation Security Agency's (TSA) Secure Flight Program requires that American collect the following additional information from passengers when making a reservation to fly within, into or out of the United States and reservations for point-to-point international flights operated by U.S. based airlines:
1. Full Name (required), as it appears on government-issued I.D. approved for use when traveling
2. Date of Birth (required)
3. Gender (required)
4. Redress Number (optional)
American may cancel your reservation if the reservation does not include the required Secure Flight Passenger Data (full name, date of birth and gender) at least 72 hours prior to your scheduled departure. This cancellation policy applies to all American Airlines tickets, including tickets for our flights operated by our codeshare partners.


Is a contract you agree to when you purchase a ticket with an airline, and all airline have a similar “Contract of Carriage”. If you do not understand what a contract is, or that you are entering into one whenever you do business with any business, then I can really only tell you to go take a class on business law.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 11:11 PM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.





Originally posted by sageofmonticello
I explain to you that some people are forced to fly (remember, you said nobody is forced to fly) and your response is the government doesn't care and they should just buy their own plane? seriously?

Did an agent from the government show up at your door, point a gun at you, and force you to buy a ticket? If the answer to this is no, then they didn’t force you to fly.

Whatever contract exists between you and your employer is an agreement between you and your employer. This does not in any way effect the contract that exists between the airline and the FAA or the contract you form with the airline when you buy a ticket.

This is like saying that I make a contract with you that you should from now on receive free food at McDonalds for life. McDonalds has no legal obligation to honor our agreement, they are a third party to it. In the same way your job is a third party to your agreement with the airline, or the airlines agreement to the FAA.


Originally posted by sageofmonticello
Was my statement illegal? My statement makes just as much sense as yours. deal with it.

It was not Illegal, it just has no foundation in the law, and is therefore untrue.


Originally posted by sageofmonticello
had no ability to comprehend my reply to you or you are so ignorant to the realities of other peoples lives that you would actually suggest that buying your own plane is a viable alternative to commercial air travel.

Your lack of funds to purchase a flight through private means is not the problem of either the government or the airlines.

This is like expecting the power company to keep sending you free electricity when you breach their contract by stopping paying your bill. If you refuse to adhere to the terms of the contract (refuse their security measures), then they do not have to honor the contract (allow you on their aircraft). If you breach the contract after entering into it, then you can actually have to pay penalties for doing so.


Originally posted by sageofmonticello
Air travel is a product, the TSA is a government agency and some people are forced to fly.
Flying is not a right, it is a privilege so if you are scared a terrorist is going to blow up your plane don't fly. No one is forcing you to fly after all.

This is a nonsensical set of statements because your contract with your job forcing you to fly has ZERO bearing on the contract that you make with the airlines, or the airlines with the government. Neither the government or the airlines forces you to fly with them, and so you enter into that contract of your own willing accord.

You also have to understand that your right to fly without going through security does not trump the other people on that aircrafts desire to feel secure on that flight, nor the airlines right to protect both its passengers, employees, and equipment.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 11:17 PM
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Originally posted by defcon5
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

If I’ve said it once, I’ve said it a hundred times on this site...
Flying is not a right, its a privilege, AND your flying with a private company that has the right to set any rules it desires.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.


...then I guess you'd have been wrong at least a hundred times. No company has that right. I think your sentence missed the word "reasonable". Also the TSA is not a company, it is an agency of the U.S. Department of Homeland Security that exercises authority over the safety and security of the traveling public in the United States.

Coming to a road/bus/subway/train checkpoint near you real soon, ya hear!

edit on 25/1/12 by LightSpeedDriver because: Grammar



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 11:44 PM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.


Originally posted by LightSpeedDriver
...then I guess you'd have been wrong at least a hundred times. No company has that right.

No, what I wrote is exactly correct.
You have no inherent right to fly on a commercial airlines under the Constitution.
The airlines only has the right to operate by following the regulations of the FAA.
The airlines has the right to set any additional demands in its contract that it wishes.

If the airlines wants to add the following to their Conditions of Carriage:

ACCEPTANCE OF PASSENGERS
American may refuse to transport you, or may remove you from your flight at any point, for one or several reasons, including but not limited to the following:
1) Refusal to wear a purple shirt.

They have to legal right to do that.
What they do not have is the legal right to operate while not following their AOC, and the FAA can fine or revoke their Certificate for doing so.

In truth, this is for your own good.
Do you really want just anyone flying an airplane? Do you want to fly on aircraft that do not meet basic safety standards? Do you want your pilot to be drunk? You want a pilot that has been flying for 28+ hours? Etc…


Originally posted by LightSpeedDriver
I think your sentence missed the word "reasonable".

Nope, the airlines can set any contractual requirements they wish, as long as they don’t violate their AOC. They can require that everyone fly naked if they so desire. It’s up to you to decide if you want to do business with them as an airline and follow their contractual requirements. Again, no one is forcing you into a contract with them.



Originally posted by LightSpeedDriver
Also the TSA is not a company, it is an agency of the U.S. Department of Homeland Security that exercises authority over the safety and security of the traveling public in the United States.

Coming to a road/bus/subway/train checkpoint near you real soon, ya hear!

When that happens you might have the legal right to complain. When they start setting up checkpoints to control your movement, then they are violating the Constitution, and they are denying you the right to locomotion.

Now DUI checkpoints are a slightly different matter. For example, when you get a drivers license you enter into a contract with the DMV that you will submit to checks for intoxicants while operating a motor vehicle. HOWEVER if they stop you at a checkpoint and ticket you for anything other then a DUI, you can take them to court and win… this has been done.

DUI checkpoints are not allowed to be used as checkpoints to site you for any other violation other then a DUI, and if they do then they have violated your rights.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 11:47 PM
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Originally posted by LightSpeedDriver
Coming to a road/bus/subway/train checkpoint near you real soon, ya hear!


What do you mean soon? It's already being done my friend!


TSA deploys 'VIPR' teams throughout Tennessee

This is not a fight against the airlines. But many still can't see the bigger picture here. Our freedoms are slowly and methodically being stripped from us.

So I guess I'll need to study contract law...or call my lawyer next time I want to drive the kids to Wally World?



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