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Mitt Romney and the LDS debate

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posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 11:19 AM
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www.google.com...

Found this article and thought I would add a few cents of my own. The article focuses on tithing, but there are underlying nuances to the commentary throughout that I would like to discuss. I am not a bigot or a basher so don't take this thread as a flame, I could seriously care less who and what people choose to believe in; it is their business as long as it stays out of my business.

I live right in the heart of LDS country, in what is for lack of a better word the bible belt of the northwest. Being a non-member and growing up in this area I have had quite a bit of first hand experience being an outsider or 'gentile' as the running vernacular describes me, and I can tell you that, regardless of what is implored of its members through doctrine, the hardcore LDS that I have experienced are anything but altruistic unless it is to others of their own faith. Yes the church body as a whole does conduct quite a lot of humanitarian aid but that is organized from its central bureaucracy and does not translate very well.

"I feel it can be misconstrued if the sums of money he's giving to the church struck observers as unusual or as indicating some particular loyalty that threatens his independence as a politician,"

This is not an unfounded statement or concern for anyone who has had any amount of prolonged exposure to LDS culture.

They are self serving first and not last, they use their own doctors, lawyers, dentists, stores, you name it. I am not jaded I am simply passing along my own experience which is far from unique in my home town. I can remember at least half a dozen occasions when I was growing up where I was not allowed to attend certain birthday parties because I was a non-member. It is superficially very outward and generous in appearance but internalized as very exclusive by its followers. If this man makes it to presidency I can guarantee you that his faith and his loyalty to it will absolutely come first. There is talk that he wants to eliminate pornography? That is just the tip of the iceberg folks and I don't doubt for second that he means it.


I made a commitment to my church a long, long time ago that I would give 10 percent of my income to the church. And I followed through on that commitment," Romney said. "And, hopefully, as people look at various individuals running for president, they'd be pleased with someone who made a promise to God and kept that promise."


That is not the only commitment he has made, this kind of steadfast, long term following is virtuous to a point but there is a fine line between the faithful and the blind. It is a fact that LDS almost exclusively vote republican, not as a matter of being informed politically and making decisions accordingly, but because the church has endorsed the republican party. I have never heard its members in the company of their peers speak poorly of the POTUS either (republican or otherwise) because there is a sort of holy connection or divine mechanism behind his elected status, it is the will of god that decides our leaders not the people or their parliament. That kind of internalized, hand-of-god-working-through-me belief structure has no place in a position of power where public policy is being decided I don't care what faith its centered around.

Of course it could do this country some good to have a more holistically faithful and spiritual nexus at the heart of our political body but I am not so sure that this is the answer we need right now. With that i will close my pseudo rant for the day, please dont take it the wrong way and if I have offended anybody I am truly sorry. Lets discuss it, I am totally open for discourse on this one because I as well as a great many other Americans are dubious about this.


cs




edit on 25-1-2012 by clowdstalker because: (no reason given)




posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 11:29 AM
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reply to post by clowdstalker
 


Not that I would ever vote for Mitt Romney (even if he were the ONLY candidate), I'm not at all bothered about his tithing. It's his money and his choice. Freedom of religion.

I am bothered that he paid just over 14% on his taxes.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 11:58 AM
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reply to post by clowdstalker
 


I grew up in the LDS church (no longer a member), and while a good deal of what you describe can be true for certain areas it is not true of the LDS culture in general.


hardcore LDS are anything but altruistic unless it is to others of their own faith. Yes the church body as a whole does conduct quite a lot of humanitarian aid but that is organized from its central bureaucracy and does not translate very well to the congregation at large.


Well I assume you grew up in a very fundamental area in Utah or Arizona, because what you describe is not true AT ALL when it comes to the majority of members.


I can remember at least half a dozen occasions when I was growing up where I was not allowed to attend certain birthday parties because I was a non-member, the mentality is that deeply set.


Like I said above I grew up in the faith but I left and I don't consider myself a Christian. I was taken into the home of a member who did not even know me, he gave me a bed to sleep in and gave me food to eat regardless of me being a "Son of Perdition". I cant count how many times I have seen members of the LDS faith helping strangers and those in need simply because they want to, not because it is demanded of them.


They are self serving first and not last, they use their own doctors, lawyers, dentists, stores, you name it.


Again not completely true, if you live in an area that's very very fundamentalist I could see it but the majority of Mormons I know shop at Wal*Mart or another big grocery chain because they need to save money too feed the 7 kids they have.



It is a fact that Mormons almost exclusively vote republican


Again not true, the man and his family who took me in for example were staunch Democrats and very active members in the church. But the majority of Mormon voters are Republican.


not as a matter of being informed politically and making decisions accordingly, but because the church has endorsed the republican party.


Absurd. Not saying that the Church is not political but they have never endorsed any party they are politically neutral they have always been (for the last 100 years anyway), they have only supported the positions which reflect the values of the church. Their influence over politics in Utah is vast (hey thats how democracy works), and they have done some pretty under handed things in the political realm, but let me put it this way Romney is a very moderate republican IMO and he will still get the majority of the Mormon vote, not because hes republican but because hes Mormon.


Its members will never ever in the company of their peers speak poorly of the POTUS either (republican or otherwise) because there is a sort of holy connection or divine mechanism behind his elected status, it is the will of god that decides our leaders not the people or their parliament.


BS, absolute BS. you must be hanging out with some of the most fundamentalist Mormons around man
. I hear people complain about Obama all day long who are Mormon, I heard people complain about Bush all the time and they were Mormon, I heard people complain about Clinton all the time and they were Mormon (my first exposure to politics). Most Mormons do have a belief that the US has an important role in the end times and Some believe that one day there will be a type of Mormon dominion before Christs return. But they do not worship the POTUS


With that i will close my pseudo rant for the day, please dont take it the wrong way and if I have offended anybody I am truly sorry.


No offense taken and I hope I wasn't to harsh in my reply, I just think you do not have a good view on how the LDS faith really is.





edit on 25-1-2012 by Openeye because: (no reason given)

edit on 25-1-2012 by Openeye because: (no reason given)

edit on 25-1-2012 by Openeye because: ERRORS




posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 12:05 PM
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Great response! Yes it is true that the area i live in is pretty hardcore fundamentalist and therefore my take is rather myopic so I am glad to to hear the other side of the coin. Your response was not too harsh at all. This topic is completely open for discussion and I am happy to see some takers.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 12:11 PM
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reply to post by clowdstalker
 
I lived in a heavy LDS area.

As a result?

I now have friends for life. Sorry you had a difficult time. I knew nothing but nice people, great neighbors, and awesome cookouts.

When I showed up, I'd say, "Who's got the beer?"

Did I mention the sense of humour?

Lets focus on the policies. Romneys policies. Leave church at home.


edit on 25-1-2012 by beezzer because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 12:22 PM
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LDS? I don't give a flyin' whatever... Can he do the job? Religion is a fundamental (sorry, couldn't resist...) freedom in America. Ones religion shouldn't be a criteria in any way.

Were he Muslim? I wouldn't care. Jewish? I wouldn't care. Satanist, advocating human sacrifice? Well, maybe I'd care a lot...
. But he's not.

I live in an area that has a large population of both Mormons, and Seventh Day Adventists, and most are very nice people.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 01:00 PM
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Banning porn in America will never happen. It's a multi-billion dollar industry that
Is more powerful than any LDS member has or ever will.

Sounds great to get support from fellow LDS members & religious folks.
Sounds good, will never happen.

Tobacco alcohol and porn are to powerful to stop.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 01:00 PM
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I am in agreement with a few posters here...

I do not care one bit what his religion is. If he was Christian, Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu or Buddhist. I would even care if his religion required him to dance naked on the White House lawn in a rainstorm. When it comes to a person's faith and what they choose to believe in, I simply do not care. It makes no difference to me at all. He has the right to worship any God he wants and when it comes to money he has made, he has every right to spend it as he chooses to do so. Would this even be a topic of conversation if Romney had given money to a Christian Church?

Edit to add:

I grew outside of Philadelphia. The Amish kept to themselves. They had their own stores, etc etc. I grew up seeing the exact same thing in Asian communities, I saw the same thing when the area had a huge surge of Russian immigrants. You can see the same thing with the Italians. It was much the same with the Quakers.
edit on 25-1-2012 by MrWendal because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 01:19 PM
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It seems that my talking points have been lost in translation. The article was about tithing which I am not concerned with he can give money to whoever he wants, it was aspects of the discourse in the article that I was referring too in making this post.

I want to make this clear because there seems to be some discrepancy, I am not bashing his choice in faith or even questioning its legitimacy. I am posing my own concerns based on a lifetime of living within a largely fundamental community and the potential affects this mentality may have on a person who is poised to be president. He can be whatever he wants to be and so can anyone else. I don't care as long as it stays your business and doesn't become my business.

Leave church at home is a nice idea, what I am quite afraid of is that this will not be the case. I am happy to see people set me straight on that, but east coast and southern LDS are a whole different ball game than what occurs in the heartland of AZ, UT, and ID where the majority live.

Religion is absolutely a fundamental freedom in America, but it is Not a fundamental aspect or foundation upon which to set and dictate public policy which will affect people of all denominations and that is already coming through in his campaign. Marriage, abortion, finance, personal choice in entertainment...get ready for a male version of Tipper Gore if he gets into office. I hope I am wrong on that one but I rather doubt that I am.
edit on 25-1-2012 by clowdstalker because: lrn 2 grammars

edit on 25-1-2012 by clowdstalker because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 01:22 PM
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Originally posted by clowdstalker
...get ready for a male version of Tipper Gore if he gets into office.


Get ready for a male version of Al Gore if Obama gets re-elected.

I'd rather have a mormon bishop as POTUS that an American-hating socialist-progressive-bowing-apologising-job losing-tax raising-liar that we have now.

But then again, that's just my humble opinion.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 01:26 PM
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reply to post by clowdstalker
 


I understand what you're saying, and I agree. But what has you thinking that this may be a problem for Romney? I've seen no indications that his faith is an issue. That it plays a role in his thinking? I don't see how it can't... Otherwise, what's the point in following a certain faith?

As long as he serves the needs of the majority of people, I fail to see how the source of his dictates matter?



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 01:28 PM
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Originally posted by Openeye
I grew up in the LDS church (no longer a member), and while a good deal of what you describe can be true for certain areas it is not true of the LDS culture in general.


I was Mormon for 5 years. Great people for the most part.

One thing I learned: Non-Mormons think they are experts on Mormonism.

Its funny - - they'll flat out tell you you are wrong when you try to correct them.

Stuff you find on the Internet in regards to Mormons - is just crazy. Its almost impossible to find anything truly factual.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 01:31 PM
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I'd rather have a mormon bishop as POTUS that an American-hating socialist-progressive-bowing-apologising-job losing-tax raising-liar that we have now.


As would I, and you can bet Obama will not be getting my vote, but it occurs to me that I can remember similar things being said about the Bush presidency and a republican majority. Lets just hope we are not jumping into the fire once again.



As long as he serves the needs of the majority of people, I fail to see how the source of his dictates matter?


I agree and hope that is the case if he succeeds in his campaign.



One thing I learned: Non-Mormons think they are experts on Mormonism.

Its funny - - they'll flat out tell you you are wrong when you try to correct them.


I never began to address myself as an expert of anything but my own experiences which should not be devalued because you think they are wrong. They may not be indicative of the LDS communities you were a part of but your experience is not the deus ex machina through which to sand way the edges of my square peg because it doesn't fit into your hole.

I am addressing concerns based on personal experience. I am not trying to be insulting or point fingers and I appreciate the discussion and I can say that based on a few of your responses I am much more at ease to the emerging fact that I have experienced the exception to the rule and not the other way around.


edit on 25-1-2012 by clowdstalker because: (no reason given)



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