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Are faith, God and love without deeds, dead?

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posted on Jan, 26 2012 @ 01:50 PM
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Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by apushforenlightment

Originally posted by MoeSantana
The idea is to do good works but not to be attached to the reward for the works.
Instead doing them for the sake of doing good things.
For the sake roughly meaning because you desire to help.
Not doing them because of a desire for reward.

edit on 25-1-2012 by MoeSantana because: Misworded, probably still is but im sure you get the picture.


Speaking of the ideal of Jesus, he helped people becuase of love for them, not for desire of praise or a reward from God.
edit on 25-1-2012 by MoeSantana because: (no reason given)


Since my mind still is a bit warped from my life I have a problem loving humanity. I can say I like some of you and I Love your potential to be devine but dislike you potential to be egosistic (and im including myself in this). In one way I can say I do not really follow the concept of god, but his/her message of higher ideals. And if he/she pulls away from the higher ideals I will off course question him/her about it. We work for the same goal but while I do it blindly god has "the plan".


Not bible God's plan I hope.

It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.

If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?

God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.

What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?

Only an insane God. That’s who.

The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.

Regards
DL


What if the death of Jesus was not a bad thing but a merciful thing. I can definetly relate to an enlightened soul who want's to go home and be free from the disharmony around him. In this world at this stage of evolution I can only be in harmony by pulling away from the rest of humanity that unfortunatly from my point of view do not get it yeet. I am never and never have been alone I just was not sure or had the proof. You seem to only look at god from one direction not looking from the buddist view or hindu. The bible was written by humans and perhaps some of them was in the light but they are only showing their view.

Why not take a mental trip and instead think of the universe from gods perspective and try to figure out the tools that he/she uses to shape every soul and planet and with infinate time to do it. Namaste.




posted on Jan, 26 2012 @ 02:09 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


Thank you. I linked the book and will see if it's for me. When I go into read mode I can read thru very thick books quickly but right now I almost have trouble getting thru a post
. Namaste



posted on Jan, 26 2012 @ 02:53 PM
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reply to post by apushforenlightment
 


I hope you enjoy it....it's primarily a study of human nature as reflected in religiosity....
a psychological treatise.

James was appointed to teach a lecture (two courses of 10 lectures each). Just reading his family background in the intro is fascinating...he points to the discrepancy between the Bible as an 'existentially created' piece of literary work that MUST be read in the context of the various authors' worldview, time-stamp, basic understanding of the world, and reasons for writing down their ideas;

as compared to the more philosophical aspect of it....

and how different people choose -- or are compelled, by their inner soul-wisdom -- to interpret it.



posted on Jan, 27 2012 @ 10:14 AM
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Originally posted by apushforenlightment

The only bible I read are the quotes that my inner self is guiding me too and I always let my mind question it as I am supposed to. Syncronicity is my guide and I find what I need. And yes there is extreme beauty in some if the devine secret messages you can find in the bible that means totaly the opposite to the ones who do not have the key ideas/concept that is needed to understand it. Ego/competion is the way to armageedon how ever much we try to limit it. It's either evolve to the ideal state/society or die out just like in nature. The longer you take to evolve the larger chance fo armageedon. Intelligence and Wisdom do allow society to not be equal and we have crime, war and slavery to prove it. Hate/anger is always breed from injustice and lack of equality. I am not free from the prison of my fellow humans idea of society, however much I want to be. If I have to be a prisoner then let me at least be an equal prisoner with as much power/say as any other. I see thru the Illusion of freedom. A society creates it own demons thru it's actions and has it's own karma. Namaste


Jews are almost always brighter than Christian.
A pleasure.

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 27 2012 @ 10:21 AM
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Originally posted by apushforenlightment
[
Why not take a mental trip and instead think of the universe from gods perspective and try to figure out the tools that he/she uses to shape every soul and planet and with infinate time to do it. Namaste.


We do not see God quite the same way. I recognize that we are created perfect and that God does not need to tweak us over time and make us his make work project.

I do not need a baby sitter. I am surprised that you would.

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 27 2012 @ 12:47 PM
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Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by apushforenlightment
[
Why not take a mental trip and instead think of the universe from gods perspective and try to figure out the tools that he/she uses to shape every soul and planet and with infinate time to do it. Namaste.


We do not see God quite the same way. I recognize that we are created perfect and that God does not need to tweak us over time and make us his make work project.

I do not need a baby sitter. I am surprised that you would.

Regards
DL


Different perspective is always interesting and the created perfect was one of the funniest things I have read in a long time from my point of view. Not a very humble approach in my point of view and screems of ego.

I have understood that I am not so bright that I thought I was and the more I learn the more I notice how small my knowledge/wisdom is. From my point of perspective and how this planet is being run I would probably not agree that you do not need a babysitter. If you don't want to be like "a pet" to the devine and get answers for your questions and get scratched, then that is what you choose. We are all children in need of guidence and knowledge at some time until we know enought to spread our wings and fly. Some people go thru the child faze 2 times in their life if they are lucky. Who needs the ego doing everything yourself when you can get help and comfort and feel like you belong. I am as I should be in this stage of my evolution from my point of view. But not changing and staying the same is an illusion. I might change very slowly in some envioments but is still do change. On earth I change extreamly fast because of the resistence and heavyness. Namasate



posted on Jan, 27 2012 @ 01:02 PM
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Originally posted by apushforenlightment

Different perspective is always interesting and the created perfect was one of the funniest things I have read in a long time from my point of view. Not a very humble approach in my point of view and screems of ego.



You seem to read scriptures literally to some extent and believe in a creator God.
Would you agree with these scriptures?

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

If you do, then are we not perfect as created by God?
Or does your God not create things perfect?

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 27 2012 @ 01:06 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 


everything is made perfect... its our thoughts and actions that make us imperfect




posted on Jan, 28 2012 @ 08:22 AM
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Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by apushforenlightment

Different perspective is always interesting and the created perfect was one of the funniest things I have read in a long time from my point of view. Not a very humble approach in my point of view and screems of ego.



You seem to read scriptures literally to some extent and believe in a creator God.
Would you agree with these scriptures?

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

If you do, then are we not perfect as created by God?
Or does your God not create things perfect?

Regards
DL


Good and evil is duality according to perspective. Ego and egoless is not ambigious. You are as you are supposed to be at this moment. If you wanna call that perfect then do that but it is not humbling and do not evolve you according to my view. Perfect is also something that is from your perspective. Since I am after ideals that are very high, from my perspective this place is very imperfect, but it is as it should be at this time. The process off evolution/the rules is what is perfect not the things that is still evolving in it. In one way I am a perfect tool for this precise moment. That do not mean I should not evolve to be the perfect tool that is needed in the other moments. I am looking both at backward, now and forwards. If I do not know what I am after how will I be able to become it? I am judging the current me against what I will be and there is a difference. God create things to evolve not to be finished. It is all about the climb. I do logicly look at all infromation and see if the information is devine or egoinfluenced. I do reject all that is egoinfluenced or as Christians call it from the devil (manifistation of ego). If you where already perfect then why are you here and not in heaven or whatever we call the next stage?

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit=A devine system cannot bring forth undevine souls. True but the souls will not evolve much because there will be no resistance to do what is right.

Neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit=A corrupt system cannot bring forth devine souls. That is untrue. The souls that are healthies will in fact create a new system/tree and abandon the old one so that the new tree is healthier. A corrupt tree will destroy itself as it is supposed to and give room to a new tree.

I wish you a happy climb. Namste
edit on 28-1-2012 by apushforenlightment because: spellchecking



posted on Jan, 28 2012 @ 11:37 AM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 


Actually Paul and James had identical views. Paul has been misunderstood. Paul definitely knew ones faith was only as strong as ones works. His life is a living testimony to the fact. He believed that following Christ was bad for the Jews so he was persecuting them because of his faith. When Jesus showed him the truth he immediately repented and began preaching the good news facing persecution everywhere he went. So by his life we know that he followed the same philosophy as James faith without works is dead. The man who has faith with no works is the man who received 1 coin and hid it. In the end the one coin he had was taken away. Jesus says that we are given and we are to return to him with interest. Faith without works is not thekind of Faith that Jesus is looking for. For who is given much, much is expected.

Again Paul is not very well understood, and there is a purpose for this.

2 Peter 3:16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Paul teaching completely agree with James and Jesus. Faith is faith by works.
edit on 28-1-2012 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 28 2012 @ 07:32 PM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 

Actually Paul and James had identical views.
The confusion comes from their use of slightly different terminology but once you get it figured out, you realize they are saying the same thing.
This is not something I made up but is the result of some concentrated efforts by top scholars.



posted on Jan, 29 2012 @ 02:14 PM
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Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by apushforenlightment

Different perspective is always interesting and the created perfect was one of the funniest things I have read in a long time from my point of view. Not a very humble approach in my point of view and screems of ego.



You seem to read scriptures literally to some extent and believe in a creator God.
Would you agree with these scriptures?

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

If you do, then are we not perfect as created by God?
Or does your God not create things perfect?

Regards
DL


He created us imperfect so that he might make us perfect. All of creation is based on cause and effect.

In creation we can see the following things to be true.

You can’t know perfection without imperfection
You can’t know good without bad
You can’t know love without hate
You can’t know God without faith
You can’t know sin without consequence
You can’t know Grace without repentance
You can’t know salvation without faith by works
You can’t become perfect without salvation

You see cause and effect leads you on the road to salvation.


So in its apparent imperfection all creation points to perfection. We are here to learn how to be like God. This is the test for those who he calls children. He is giving us freely his knowledge so that we may come to love him, not because we were created to love him but because we choose to. Honestly I see creation as a perfect lesson for the created to become fully aware that the creator is love.

edit on 29-1-2012 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 29 2012 @ 04:54 PM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 

He created us imperfect so that he might make us perfect. All of creation is based on cause and effect.

I would change the terms to something like:
The universe which God found himself in at its creation is based on cause and effect.

What God created is the Garden of Eden, which is a way, outside of the normal rules of the functioning of the universe, for Man to live forever.
The Hereafter God created, which we may enter.
As individuals, this may not be immediate but as a people living on this planet, it will come about with us being perfected in this life through an infilling of the spirit of Christ, to be the good sort of people to take the world out of its imbalance which is currently too far into the evil.
This goes back to John the Baptist where he said, 'I baptize with water but the one who comes after me will baptize with fire', where these are symbolic of the use of two elements for changing whatever they touch, so you have juxtaposed: 1) a cleansing from past ways of doing things, with: 2) empowerment to do things in a better way.
With our change of behavior through an internal change in ourselves, through these agencies, comes a change to the world we live in.



posted on Jan, 30 2012 @ 02:47 PM
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Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


everything is made perfect... its our thoughts and actions that make us imperfect



Not if you follow the logic of that scripture.

But then again.

“Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.

Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.”
Martin Luther

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 30 2012 @ 02:56 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 


See.. i told ya you don't ignore me


What particular scripture are you refering to?

You're right though... in the case of your average christian, faith does trample all logic and reason.

Edit: Oh you're talking about the passage from deut. I really don't deal much with the OT... but i agree God is perfection...


edit on 30-1-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 30 2012 @ 02:58 PM
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Originally posted by apushforenlightment

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by apushforenlightment

Different perspective is always interesting and the created perfect was one of the funniest things I have read in a long time from my point of view. Not a very humble approach in my point of view and screems of ego.



You seem to read scriptures literally to some extent and believe in a creator God.
Would you agree with these scriptures?

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

If you do, then are we not perfect as created by God?
Or does your God not create things perfect?

Regards
DL


Good and evil is duality according to perspective. Ego and egoless is not ambigious. You are as you are supposed to be at this moment. If you wanna call that perfect then do that but it is not humbling and do not evolve you according to my view. Perfect is also something that is from your perspective. Since I am after ideals that are very high, from my perspective this place is very imperfect, but it is as it should be at this time. The process off evolution/the rules is what is perfect not the things that is still evolving in it. In one way I am a perfect tool for this precise moment. That do not mean I should not evolve to be the perfect tool that is needed in the other moments. I am looking both at backward, now and forwards. If I do not know what I am after how will I be able to become it? I am judging the current me against what I will be and there is a difference. God create things to evolve not to be finished. It is all about the climb. I do logicly look at all infromation and see if the information is devine or egoinfluenced. I do reject all that is egoinfluenced or as Christians call it from the devil (manifistation of ego). If you where already perfect then why are you here and not in heaven or whatever we call the next stage?

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit=A devine system cannot bring forth undevine souls. True but the souls will not evolve much because there will be no resistance to do what is right.

Neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit=A corrupt system cannot bring forth devine souls. That is untrue. The souls that are healthies will in fact create a new system/tree and abandon the old one so that the new tree is healthier. A corrupt tree will destroy itself as it is supposed to and give room to a new tree.

I wish you a happy climb. Namste
edit on 28-1-2012 by apushforenlightment because: spellchecking


We are close I think. Except for the use of the word perfect and I basically use it because it fits the quote I used.

I use the U S form of perfect. It is allowed linguistically to move to---as their constitution says,---go to a more perfect state. That is why I call us evolving perfection.

It fit's God better as well unless you think that God is static and stagnating in the same perfect as he was in the beginning. If so, then you have to wonder how he could not change while still having knowledge of you.

In this following, they use best instead of perfect.

When this was written, most thought it to just be a cynical view of life but I think it is quite true and irrefutable, based on the anthropic principle.
What do you think?

Candide

"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 30 2012 @ 03:05 PM
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Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


Actually Paul and James had identical views. Paul has been misunderstood. Paul definitely knew ones faith was only as strong as ones works. His life is a living testimony to the fact. He believed that following Christ was bad for the Jews so he was persecuting them because of his faith. When Jesus showed him the truth he immediately repented and began preaching the good news facing persecution everywhere he went. So by his life we know that he followed the same philosophy as James faith without works is dead. The man who has faith with no works is the man who received 1 coin and hid it. In the end the one coin he had was taken away. Jesus says that we are given and we are to return to him with interest. Faith without works is not thekind of Faith that Jesus is looking for. For who is given much, much is expected.

Again Paul is not very well understood, and there is a purpose for this.

2 Peter 3:16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Paul teaching completely agree with James and Jesus. Faith is faith by works.
edit on 28-1-2012 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)


And love without works from God are dead.

Strange how Christians curse everyone that does not believe quite as thy do to hell while admitting that the bible is all screwed up and they are the only ones who can understand it because they are saved. What B S.

Here is what modern scholarship is saying about Paul and the host of discrepancies you hint at.

www.youtube.com...

BTW, most intelligent people know they are dealing with myth and not reality.

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 30 2012 @ 06:39 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 

Here is what modern scholarship is saying about Paul and the host of discrepancies you hint at.

www.youtube.com...

BTW, most intelligent people know they are dealing with myth and not reality.
I have not looked at the video yet but I did look at a very important book I got in the mail today by the top "modern scholarship" and what they say about Paul. The book is: The Gospel and the Gospels edited by Peter Stuhlmacher, a printing of essays from the proceedings of the Tübinger Symposium of 1982, dealing with issues involved in where the Gospels came from. In the essay titled, "Unknown Sayings of Jesus" by Otfried Hufïus, the author is saying that in 1 Thess. 4:15, when Paul says, "For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.", he is not talking about an unpublished saying of Jesus but is talking about a message given directly to him by Jesus through revelation.



posted on Jan, 30 2012 @ 08:50 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 

The video you linked to is Bart Ehrman talking about his book, Forged, where he says seven of the books by Paul were by him and the others normally attributed to him are not really by him.
My advice is to be careful about basing your theology on one of those forged letters, and if you want to use a verse authoritatively, use ones from the seven authentic letters, which are:

Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, 1 Thessalonians, and Philemon.



posted on Jan, 31 2012 @ 10:01 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Greatest I am
 

The video you linked to is Bart Ehrman talking about his book, Forged, where he says seven of the books by Paul were by him and the others normally attributed to him are not really by him.
My advice is to be careful about basing your theology on one of those forged letters, and if you want to use a verse authoritatively, use ones from the seven authentic letters, which are:

Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, 1 Thessalonians, and Philemon.


I use quotes. I do not give them any real authority as they all are in a book of myths.

Some may have wisdom though.
All fairy tales have wisdom.

Regards
DL



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