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Are faith, God and love without deeds, dead?

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posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 10:31 AM
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Are faith, God and love without deeds, dead?

Paul took the position that salvation could be gained on faith alone. James took the position that faith without works and deeds is dead. Even if one had faith, like demons and Satan must, without works they were still going to hell.

Most have landed with James who said that faith without deeds and works was dead. This may be due to Jesus who said that we would recognize his people by their works.

Love, it would seem to me, has the same characteristic as faith. Love without works and deeds is dead. Be it love for a spouse, our children, parents or friends or even God, if we did not do works and deeds, they could not know that we love them. At the very least, we would have to tell them we love them and that falls into works and deeds.

Many believers tell me that God is love or loves us all. They always point to deeds and works that fall in the range of un-provable miracles. Most of these miracles are in the ancient past. Creation and what not. Some take it to the present and I have been told often that God can do whatever he wants with us because he made us. I discard this out of hand because I believe that if that were true, God would not also create all those things that kill us and cause us to suffer. That is not a loving act.

Love, human to human, must have ongoing deeds and works to be alive. Without these, love is dead.

Love, God to human, must also have ongoing works and deeds. If God is alive, he must and would express his love with viable and recognizable actions.

If we cannot see these acts on God’s part --- and you agree that love must be expressed somehow with works and deeds, ----does that mean that God does not love or that he is dead?

Regards
DL




posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 10:35 AM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 


I am of the belief (and have been for months now) that science and spirit are two sides of the same coin. I believe that everything spiritual has a scientific explanation that we simply haven't found yet. And I believe that everything scientific has a spiritual aspect behind it. As one of such a school of thought, it seems to me that one who has Love (which, I think, is the basis of all faiths which have their root in Judaism) will automatically do good deeds. Their nature (as dictated by the general rules of psychology) will demand it, and they will see no reason to resist such compulsions.

Love is as Love does. If you have Love, you will show it.
edit on CWednesdayam131338f38America/Chicago25 by Starchild23 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 12:00 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 

Paul took the position that salvation could be gained on faith alone.

Paul said people can enter into a covenant relationship with God outside of the system earlier presented which was the Mosaic Law. Salvation is through Jesus and who and what he was and is, but the system we enter through faith is one which proceeds through what goes by the name, Faith, but is a condition of a spiritual empowerment from Jesus which allows us to be better, meaning our actions are more in line with the ideal as demonstrated by Jesus.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 12:18 PM
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The idea is to do good works but not to be attached to the reward for the works.
Instead doing them for the sake of doing good things.
For the sake roughly meaning because you desire to help.
Not doing them because of a desire for reward.

edit on 25-1-2012 by MoeSantana because: Misworded, probably still is but im sure you get the picture.


Speaking of the ideal of Jesus, he helped people becuase of love for them, not for desire of praise or a reward from God.
edit on 25-1-2012 by MoeSantana because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 01:01 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 


Faith without works is not "dead"... Just less fruitful so to speak...

IF you proclaim a certian "faith" then one must show that faith...

In the case of "christians"... IF you have faith in Jesus, then you do as he asked...

15If ye love me, keep my commandments.

How does one "love thy neighbour" without showing that love? Its simply not possible...

IF one has faith in him, one must bare the fruit of his labour... And his labour is love for all...



1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.




posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 04:03 PM
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Originally posted by Greatest I am
Are faith, God and love without deeds, dead?

Paul took the position that salvation could be gained on faith alone. James took the position that faith without works and deeds is dead. Even if one had faith, like demons and Satan must, without works they were still going to hell.

Most have landed with James who said that faith without deeds and works was dead. This may be due to Jesus who said that we would recognize his people by their works.

Love, it would seem to me, has the same characteristic as faith. Love without works and deeds is dead. Be it love for a spouse, our children, parents or friends or even God, if we did not do works and deeds, they could not know that we love them. At the very least, we would have to tell them we love them and that falls into works and deeds.

Many believers tell me that God is love or loves us all. They always point to deeds and works that fall in the range of un-provable miracles. Most of these miracles are in the ancient past. Creation and what not. Some take it to the present and I have been told often that God can do whatever he wants with us because he made us. I discard this out of hand because I believe that if that were true, God would not also create all those things that kill us and cause us to suffer. That is not a loving act.

Love, human to human, must have ongoing deeds and works to be alive. Without these, love is dead.

Love, God to human, must also have ongoing works and deeds. If God is alive, he must and would express his love with viable and recognizable actions.

If we cannot see these acts on God’s part --- and you agree that love must be expressed somehow with works and deeds, ----does that mean that God does not love or that he is dead?

Regards
DL


Faith/religon is not needed. I was very angry at god if he existed and was very clear that I would not accept him if he was a bully and I was always unsure. If a person goes to higher ideals without faith because it is the right thing then the person is on his/her way to the moment of awakeening. God will first mold you and push you to become what you should be, and after that you get the answer to what have happened. At the right moment god will push you in a way that can be very painfull, but necesary for you to be able to be guided. You will probably be at your lowest. After a while you will have the moment where you get your view of how the universe works and what you and god really is and the relation between you, and you will probably lose your ego temporarily. After that the connection is felt and chi/mana starts to flow when you have happy thoughts and the healing starts and the harmony increases. This is where you begin to behave like a child/animal and just "be" when you mind is not active. Then you start to find the answers you need in your own way thru syncronicity. For the awakeened person that is in the "light" there is no fear and faith is not needed, when you know it's no longer faith. But what I know is changing as I continue my journey with the guidence.

This place is exacly like it should be at this time in evolution but I do not have to like it.

Above is a description on how it can happen but do not limit you mind to it.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 04:07 PM
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reply to post by apushforenlightment
 



If a person goes to higher ideals without faith because it is the right thing then the person is on his/her way to the moment of awakeening.

Beautifully put. Thanks for that affirmation.
It is such a private journey, so far outside the realm of .... well, whatever. Speaking to one who's already there.
Brightest,
wildtimes



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 04:14 PM
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On the one hand we have Jesus the God-Man deliberately choosing the work of the World Redemption and
Salvation, and descending into the circle of the World-Karma, relinquishing the privilege of His Godhood and
taking upon Himself the penalties of Manhood; not only undergoing the sufferings of the physical man, but
also binding Himself upon the Cross of Humanity for ages, that by His spiritual presence in and of the race He
might lift up humanity to godhood.
On the other hand, we have a picture of an angry Deity, manifesting purely human emotion and temper, bent
on revenging himself upon the race which he had created, and demanding its eternal punishment in hell-fire;
then the same Deity creating a Son whom he sent into the world, that this Son might be the victim of ablood-atonement and death upon the cross, that the Deity's wrath might be appeased and the blood of this
Divine Lamb be accepted to wash out the sins of the world.

The mighty uplift of the world since the death of Jesus, of which the present is but a faint prophecy of the
future, has been due largely to the energizing influence of The Christ in the hearts and minds of the race. The
sense of the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Man, which is now manifesting so powerfully in the
world of Men, is but an instance of the work of the Christ--the Savior and Redeemer. And the highest dreams
of the exalted souls of this generation are but inadequate visions of what the future will hold for the race. The
work is just beginning to bud--the blossom and the fruit will render this earth a far more glorious place than
even the highest ideals of heaven entertained by the faithful in the past. But even these things of the future
will be poor things, when compared with the life of the higher planes which await the race when it has
demonstrated its fitness to pass on and on and on to these greater glories. And ever and ever The Christ is
working, and toiling and striving and suffering, in His efforts to raise humanity even one petty degree in the
spiritual scale of being.

more on topic

He told them that the real work of His followers was the sowing of the seed of the Truth, without regard to
immediate results. He told them that the real fruition would not come for many centuries--yea, not until the
passing of over two thousand years or more. He told them that the passage of the centuries would be like the
preparing of the soil for the great work of the Truth, and that afar in the distance would be the real fruit
season.
He taught them regarding the Second Coming of Christ, when the real Truth of His teachings should become
apparent to mankind and the true Life of the Spirit should be lived by the race. He taught them that their work
was to keep alight the Flame of the Spirit and to pass it on to worthy followers.



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 04:26 PM
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reply to post by MoeSantana
 



He told them that the real work of His followers was the sowing of the seed of the Truth, without regard to
immediate results.

Yeah. That ^^. Exactly.
And by the way, welcome to ATS!



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 04:27 PM
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Originally posted by MoeSantana
The idea is to do good works but not to be attached to the reward for the works.
Instead doing them for the sake of doing good things.
For the sake roughly meaning because you desire to help.
Not doing them because of a desire for reward.

edit on 25-1-2012 by MoeSantana because: Misworded, probably still is but im sure you get the picture.


Speaking of the ideal of Jesus, he helped people becuase of love for them, not for desire of praise or a reward from God.
edit on 25-1-2012 by MoeSantana because: (no reason given)


Since my mind still is a bit warped from my life I have a problem loving humanity. I can say I like some of you and I Love your potential to be devine but dislike you potential to be egosistic (and im including myself in this). In one way I can say I do not really follow the concept of god, but his/her message of higher ideals. And if he/she pulls away from the higher ideals I will off course question him/her about it. We work for the same goal but while I do it blindly god has "the plan".



posted on Jan, 26 2012 @ 09:42 AM
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Originally posted by Starchild23
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


I am of the belief (and have been for months now) that science and spirit are two sides of the same coin. I believe that everything spiritual has a scientific explanation that we simply haven't found yet. And I believe that everything scientific has a spiritual aspect behind it. As one of such a school of thought, it seems to me that one who has Love (which, I think, is the basis of all faiths which have their root in Judaism) will automatically do good deeds. Their nature (as dictated by the general rules of psychology) will demand it, and they will see no reason to resist such compulsions.

Love is as Love does. If you have Love, you will show it.
edit on CWednesdayam131338f38America/Chicago25 by Starchild23 because: (no reason given)


I agree completely.

I see man as having two natures. One political and one spiritual. They are not opposed but complimentary to each other and agree on all things.

Unfortunately, in some instances, our political nature, the one that deals with our survival, sometimes must compete, do evil, to insure the survival of the body. You cannot take competition out of evolution. If you do, you will go extinct.

Let me try to explain.


Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.




Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that it is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.

Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.

Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should see that what Christians see as something to blame, we should see that what we have, deserves a huge thanks where it belongs. God or nature.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be.

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 26 2012 @ 09:46 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Greatest I am
 

Paul took the position that salvation could be gained on faith alone.

Paul said people can enter into a covenant relationship with God outside of the system earlier presented which was the Mosaic Law. Salvation is through Jesus and who and what he was and is, but the system we enter through faith is one which proceeds through what goes by the name, Faith, but is a condition of a spiritual empowerment from Jesus which allows us to be better, meaning our actions are more in line with the ideal as demonstrated by Jesus.


Jesus demonstrated with deeds and so must we. I agree.
Faith means nothing. We are judged by what we do. Not what or in who we believe.

www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 26 2012 @ 09:50 AM
link   

Originally posted by MoeSantana
The idea is to do good works but not to be attached to the reward for the works.
Instead doing them for the sake of doing good things.
For the sake roughly meaning because you desire to help.
Not doing them because of a desire for reward.

edit on 25-1-2012 by MoeSantana because: Misworded, probably still is but im sure you get the picture.


Speaking of the ideal of Jesus, he helped people becuase of love for them, not for desire of praise or a reward from God.
edit on 25-1-2012 by MoeSantana because: (no reason given)


No argument here.

The point though is to highlight that what Jesus did then, he would continue to do right to this day, if he was God.
So would God if he wanted to be relevant to mankind.
Love is as love does and God does nothing to show love or earn our love.

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 26 2012 @ 09:53 AM
link   

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


Faith without works is not "dead"... Just less fruitful so to speak...

IF you proclaim a certian "faith" then one must show that faith...

In the case of "christians"... IF you have faith in Jesus, then you do as he asked...




You will know them by their works. -------Jesus.

On this issue we agree.

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 26 2012 @ 10:01 AM
link   

Originally posted by apushforenlightment
[
Faith/religon is not needed. I was very angry at god if he existed and was very clear that I would not accept him if he was a bully and I was always unsure. If a person goes to higher ideals without faith because it is the right thing then the person is on his/her way to the moment of awakeening. God will first mold you and push you to become what you should be, and after that you get the answer to what have happened. At the right moment god will push you in a way that can be very painfull, but necesary for you to be able to be guided. You will probably be at your lowest. After a while you will have the moment where you get your view of how the universe works and what you and god really is and the relation between you, and you will probably lose your ego temporarily. After that the connection is felt and chi/mana starts to flow when you have happy thoughts and the healing starts and the harmony increases. This is where you begin to behave like a child/animal and just "be" when you mind is not active. Then you start to find the answers you need in your own way thru syncronicity. For the awakeened person that is in the "light" there is no fear and faith is not needed, when you know it's no longer faith. But what I know is changing as I continue my journey with the guidence.

This place is exacly like it should be at this time in evolution but I do not have to like it.

Above is a description on how it can happen but do not limit you mind to it.


A good way to seek apotheosis.

Guidance from what source?

Most think I have little to no respect for scriptures but they are wrong.
The bible helped me push my apotheosis. If read right, it is a great book of wisdom. If read wrong, as many Christians do, it leads them to a piss poor moral position where even the genocide of mankind is a good thing. Insanity IOW.

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 26 2012 @ 10:05 AM
link   

Originally posted by apushforenlightment

Originally posted by MoeSantana
The idea is to do good works but not to be attached to the reward for the works.
Instead doing them for the sake of doing good things.
For the sake roughly meaning because you desire to help.
Not doing them because of a desire for reward.

edit on 25-1-2012 by MoeSantana because: Misworded, probably still is but im sure you get the picture.


Speaking of the ideal of Jesus, he helped people becuase of love for them, not for desire of praise or a reward from God.
edit on 25-1-2012 by MoeSantana because: (no reason given)


Since my mind still is a bit warped from my life I have a problem loving humanity. I can say I like some of you and I Love your potential to be devine but dislike you potential to be egosistic (and im including myself in this). In one way I can say I do not really follow the concept of god, but his/her message of higher ideals. And if he/she pulls away from the higher ideals I will off course question him/her about it. We work for the same goal but while I do it blindly god has "the plan".


Not bible God's plan I hope.

It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.

If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?

God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.

What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?

Only an insane God. That’s who.

The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 26 2012 @ 10:24 AM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 

Jesus demonstrated with deeds and so must we. I agree.
Faith means nothing. We are judged by what we do. Not what or in who we believe.

The New Testament words for things like faith and belief are a little different than what we might think they mean today, where we might think of them in emotional terms, as in how we feel about something where the original meaning in the mind of the writers was more a state of mind of being convinced of something so as to be able to draw from it a conviction to the point of having a different way of life.
edit on 26-1-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 26 2012 @ 10:32 AM
link   

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Greatest I am
 

Jesus demonstrated with deeds and so must we. I agree.
Faith means nothing. We are judged by what we do. Not what or in who we believe.

The New Testament words for things like faith and belief are a little different than what we might think they mean today, where we might think of them in emotional terms, as in how we feel about something where the original meaning in the mind of the writers was more a state of mind of being convinced of something so as to be able to draw from it a conviction to the point of having a different way of life.
edit on 26-1-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)


I will not try to second guess what someone thought 3,000 years ago.
I go with what is believed today and let the dead bury the dead.

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 26 2012 @ 01:29 PM
link   

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by apushforenlightment
[
Faith/religon is not needed. I was very angry at god if he existed and was very clear that I would not accept him if he was a bully and I was always unsure. If a person goes to higher ideals without faith because it is the right thing then the person is on his/her way to the moment of awakeening. God will first mold you and push you to become what you should be, and after that you get the answer to what have happened. At the right moment god will push you in a way that can be very painfull, but necesary for you to be able to be guided. You will probably be at your lowest. After a while you will have the moment where you get your view of how the universe works and what you and god really is and the relation between you, and you will probably lose your ego temporarily. After that the connection is felt and chi/mana starts to flow when you have happy thoughts and the healing starts and the harmony increases. This is where you begin to behave like a child/animal and just "be" when you mind is not active. Then you start to find the answers you need in your own way thru syncronicity. For the awakeened person that is in the "light" there is no fear and faith is not needed, when you know it's no longer faith. But what I know is changing as I continue my journey with the guidence.

This place is exacly like it should be at this time in evolution but I do not have to like it.

Above is a description on how it can happen but do not limit you mind to it.


A good way to seek apotheosis.

Guidance from what source?

Most think I have little to no respect for scriptures but they are wrong.
The bible helped me push my apotheosis. If read right, it is a great book of wisdom. If read wrong, as many Christians do, it leads them to a piss poor moral position where even the genocide of mankind is a good thing. Insanity IOW.

Regards
DL


The only bible I read are the quotes that my inner self is guiding me too and I always let my mind question it as I am supposed to. Syncronicity is my guide and I find what I need. And yes there is extreme beauty in some if the devine secret messages you can find in the bible that means totaly the opposite to the ones who do not have the key ideas/concept that is needed to understand it. Ego/competion is the way to armageedon how ever much we try to limit it. It's either evolve to the ideal state/society or die out just like in nature. The longer you take to evolve the larger chance fo armageedon. Intelligence and Wisdom do allow society to not be equal and we have crime, war and slavery to prove it. Hate/anger is always breed from injustice and lack of equality. I am not free from the prison of my fellow humans idea of society, however much I want to be. If I have to be a prisoner then let me at least be an equal prisoner with as much power/say as any other. I see thru the Illusion of freedom. A society creates it own demons thru it's actions and has it's own karma. Namaste



posted on Jan, 26 2012 @ 01:42 PM
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reply to post by apushforenlightment
 



The only bible I read are the quotes that my inner self is guiding me too and I always let my mind question it as I am supposed to. Syncronicity is my guide and I find what I need. And yes there is extreme beauty in some if the devine secret messages you can find in the bible that means totaly the opposite to the ones who do not have the key ideas/concept that is needed to understand it.

Excellent mindset, in my opinion (which means it's worth what you're paying for it!
)
Every passage in the Bible can be taken alone....and looked at....

I just began today reading "The Varieties of Religious Experience" by William James. He was a psychologist looking at religion as a phenomenon of human nature. So far, very interesting (I only got to page 5 or so when husband turned on TV in the room and pulled the curtain over the sunny window in which I was happily reading in silence)....oh well!

Here's a link to the free online version (mine is a paperback purchased 30+ years ago for Western Civ or Philosophy in college)....www.gutenberg.org...



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