Yet another hacker getting paid by our tax money

Is this another misallocation of funds?

story.news.yahoo.com.../nm/20040914/tc_nm/security_usa_cyber_dc

I am curious if this gentleman got his job by first hacking some high profile entity (business, internet site, etc�). If that is the case it disturbs me I don�t see people that steal from K-mart being placed on the security team. Anyone got any background on Mr. Larsen or should I instead be happy for a hacker gone right?

By the way... Who do you think makes your anti-virus software? Your firewalls? And other security measures.

Hackers/Crackers.

A lot of people working in the business for good (such as the above), used to do hacking and cracking for bad.

So, I think that it's good that bad hackers turn good, and start helping us.
I haven't read the above article, but I assume it's the same sort of thing.

Whether you like it or not... Numerous hackers over the years, have been cought - and then hired by the government; to protect their systems.

I guess the official statement goes like this:

"INEEL officials say the lab would not hire anyone who had committed criminal acts and added they must obtain security clearances. "How do you know that your wife is not going to clean our your bank account?" Schaeffer said. "You just trust people and you do background checks." "

Yeah RIGHT!

(Metalhead - YOU'RE A CRACKER!)

[edit on 14-9-2004 by DeltaChaos]

Theres more flavors of hackers then there are crazy fascist capitalists in the White House, and there is a destinct difference between good and evil, even the hackers world.

From the "evil" side, there are 2 big differences too, 1 part is kids and loosers that try to cause as much damage as they can to show how great they are(translates to small reproductive organ size, kinda like guys buying porsches they can't even drive right), on the other side theres people hacking to earn money.

But actualy, there is a great majority of good hackers out there. Every capable and skilled systems admin and programmer could be called a hacker too. Since alot of their work goes into finding and preventing problems.

Originally posted by DeltaChaos
(Metalhead - YOU'RE A CRACKER!)

I'm offended. You don't even know me... So don't start accusing me of being things I am not.

I was only stating the truth above. OK, it may be wrong people hire bad hackers... But at the end of the day, you wouldn't have any protection against such acts without it happening.

Originally posted by thematrix
Theres more flavors of hackers then there are crazy fascist capitalists in the White House, and there is a destinct difference between good and evil, even the hackers world.

From the "evil" side, there are 2 big differences too, 1 part is kids and loosers that try to cause as much damage as they can to show how great they are(translates to small reproductive organ size, kinda like guys buying porsches they can't even drive right), on the other side theres people hacking to earn money.

But actualy, there is a great majority of good hackers out there. Every capable and skilled systems admin and programmer could be called a hacker too. Since alot of their work goes into finding and preventing problems.

Thank you - someone who sees it my way

Originally posted by MetalHead

Originally posted by DeltaChaos
(Metalhead - YOU'RE A CRACKER!)

I'm offended. You don't even know me... So don't start accusing me of being things I am not.

I was only stating the truth above. OK, it may be wrong people hire bad hackers... But at the end of the day, you wouldn't have any protection against such acts without it happening.

First, you do know me. We just haven't spoken in a while. And that was a joke. You just didn't get it. It's ok. Someone else will.

Second, I know you. Anyone with Hetfield for an Avatar is someone I know well. Trust me, we have a bond which transcends opinion.

"Not only do I not know the answer, I don't even know what the question is..." -JH

Is it not just a question of chicken or the egg? A �good hacker� isn�t this some degree of fallacy. I don�t understand how someone that has been caught and is given a choice between jail and working for the company or government is out for good.

I really don�t hear stories of the top hackers in the world that are out their doing good for the pure pursuit of doing good. I hear about people like Robert Morris, David Smith, Vlad Levin, and so many more. I will give credit to someone like Linus Torvalds a hacker strictly out for his own capital gain. But even Torvalds is a great hacker but more so a visionary with a desire to benefit from his creation.

And blah to you that choose the name cracker or black-hat they are all hackers. It is perfect for a capitalist society why would one hack for positive when there is so much more money in hacking for negative. It�s a great system you hack and get caught you have a chance of becoming that companies new tool for defense a win, win situation.

It�s similar to an argument of superman not in the sense of Nietzsche but the superhero of comic books and movies. Why would an individual with powers so great that they could control the world use this for good when evil is more profitable?

It is pure common sense to employ a master of the trade to improve the area of knowledge.


This is done in many industries, physical security for example. Locks and safes etc.

Hell, I hack for open source projects all the time.. am I a criminal? There is a clear distinction between hackers and crackers I hope some people take the time to learn. Another stereotypical analysis of hackers down the drain - aw well.

Originally posted by Flash__04
I really don�t hear stories of the top hackers in the world that are out their doing good for the pure pursuit of doing good. I hear about people like Robert Morris, David Smith, Vlad Levin, and so many more. I will give credit to someone like Linus Torvalds a hacker strictly out for his own capital gain. But even Torvalds is a great hacker but more so a visionary with a desire to benefit from his creation.

Of course you dont hear about the hackers that are doing good... Do you hear about the soldiers that dont get killed? Do you hear about the psychos that dont do anything wrong? Do you hear about the police that dont have some scandal surrounding them? No, of course you dont.

If there werent hackers out there working for the good guys, how would we get our firewalls? If there werent virus creators our there working for the good guys, how would we get our anti-virus software? Every time you purchase one of these producst, part of the money goes to the hacker that designed it.

Who says being a hacker is a bad thing?

From wikipedia.org...

Hacker is a term used to describe different types of computer experts. It is also sometimes extended to mean any kind of expert, especially with the connotation of having particularly detailed knowledge or of cleverly circumventing limits. The meaning of the term, when used in a computer context, has changed somewhat over the decades since it first came into use, as it has been given additional and clashing meanings by new users of the word.

Currently, "hacker" is used in two main ways, one positive and one pejorative. It can be used in the computing community to describe a particularly brilliant programmer or technical expert (for example: "Linus Torvalds, the creator of Linux, is a genius hacker."). This is said by some to be the "correct" usage of the word (see the Jargon File definition below). In popular usage and in the media, however, it generally describes computer intruders or criminals. "Hacker" can be seen as a shibboleth, identifying those who use it in its positive sense as members of the computing community.

As a result of this conflict, the term is the subject of some controversy. The pejorative usage is disliked by many who identify themselves as hackers, and who do not like their label used negatively. Many users of the positive form say the "intruder" meaning should be deprecated, and advocate terms such as "cracker" or "black-hat" to replace it. Others prefer to follow common popular usage, arguing that the positive form is confusing and never likely to become widespread.

And from www.catb.org...

hacker: n.

[originally, someone who makes furniture with an axe]

1. A person who enjoys exploring the details of programmable systems and how to stretch their capabilities, as opposed to most users, who prefer to learn only the minimum necessary. RFC1392, the Internet Users' Glossary, usefully amplifies this as: A person who delights in having an intimate understanding of the internal workings of a system, computers and computer networks in particular.

2. One who programs enthusiastically (even obsessively) or who enjoys programming rather than just theorizing about programming.

3. A person capable of appreciating hack value.

4. A person who is good at programming quickly.

5. An expert at a particular program, or one who frequently does work using it or on it; as in �a Unix hacker�. (Definitions 1 through 5 are correlated, and people who fit them congregate.)

6. An expert or enthusiast of any kind. One might be an astronomy hacker, for example.

7. One who enjoys the intellectual challenge of creatively overcoming or circumventing limitations.

8. [deprecated] A malicious meddler who tries to discover sensitive information by poking around. Hence password hacker, network hacker. The correct term for this sense is cracker.

From webopedia.com...

A slang term for a computer enthusiast, i.e., a person who enjoys learning programming languages and computer systems and can often be considered an expert on the subject(s). Among professional programmers, depending on how it used, the term can be either complimentary or derogatory, although it is developing an increasingly derogatory connotation. The pejorative sense of hacker is becoming more prominent largely because the popular press has coopted the term to refer to individuals who gain unauthorized access to computer systems for the purpose of stealing and corrupting data. Hackers, themselves, maintain that the proper term for such individuals is cracker.

[edit on 14-9-2004 by Milk]

My lack of acceptance of a �good� hacker is simply in the connotation of the word good. I associate a good act as something purely selfless and encompassing no personal gain. My definition of good is I assume different then most. I would say the individual that simply gave away his million dollar McDonalds monopoly game piece to charity is a good act. Also our fallen police and firemen of 9/11 was a good act. This could be supplemented with a better word but it is a truly good act. It is difficult for me to see how any hacker could and would make such a contribution. If I have offended by my interpretation into a word sorry but it is a matter of interpretation. The absence of good in my mind is not necessarily evil. I am simply saying that that there is I guess you could put it as grey hackers and evil hackers in the world. Do not assume that grey is bad being that in our capitalist society we are strewn with individuals working out of the grey.

For the hacker cracker argument you got to read this just found it funny not that it is all that serious.
coscorrosa.com...

The true hacker, in its originating self proclaimed definition is: A person that believes in freedom of imformation. Therefore seeks this information out.

True hacking has never been destructive in any form. The vandals and theifs in the computer world have been falsly given the title of hacker.

Originally posted by Flash__04
Is it not just a question of chicken or the egg? A �good hacker� isn�t this some degree of fallacy. I don�t understand how someone that has been caught and is given a choice between jail and working for the company or government is out for good.

Actually, there is a group known as "white hat hackers" who are security experts. There are seminars and learning tracks about this type of thing... and it's really beyond the level of the "ankle biters" out there. White Hat Hackers are consultants and never hack without permission. Generally they're a bit older than the Skr1ptZ K1Dd13Z and have skill sets that they don't have (strong command line operating system abilities.)

The article was ambiguous, but implied a White Hat Hacker and not a semi-reformed script kiddie.

...and then there's the "hacktivists...."

[edit on 14-9-2004 by Byrd]

This has been going on for awhile. Instead of throwing th hacker in jail and getting hacked again, they hire the hacker to show them how he got in, and plug up the hole. Then pay him to keep doing so until there are no holes left. But seeing as how there are always holes, he is paid forever.

Originally posted by James the Lesser
This has been going on for awhile. Instead of throwing th hacker in jail and getting hacked again, they hire the hacker to show them how he got in, and plug up the hole. Then pay him to keep doing so until there are no holes left. But seeing as how there are always holes, he is paid forever.

Untrue in certain situations, lets take for example a bank. Thief I number one breaks in and exposes huge flaws in the system, instead of being jailed he is hired to find breaches. Well down the road Thief II finds a hole Thief I didn't find, Thief II now is hired and Thief I is fired. Lack of knowledge on part of Thief I is to blame, so you see its a vicious cycle. This was taken from a real life situation in Canada by the way. It doesn't always go like this but it usually does.

Take a look at the references to "samurai hacker".
[Most] References quote the origin being from as far back as 1991:
like this one - dict.die.net...

(Although, a term you don't hear much used these days, alas).

... but you can comfortably go back further (within the term "hackers" normally applied defined subject area of "computing" - as distinct from more widely applied 'poacher turned gamekeeper' stuff), Alan Turning for one - would you not say that he was a publicly funded hacker?


[edit on 14-9-2004 by 0951]

I am glad some people on here have a good view of "hacking".

I define hacking in a number of different ways:

1: A hacker, is somebody who excels in their interest. Such as a great artist, or a great scientist.

2: A computer hacker, is somebody who solves puzzles.

Those are my two main definitions.

"computer hackers" can be split up into 2 things also:

1: A 'white hat' hacker, like somebody else mentioned - is a computer expert hacking for good of others. For example, making firewalls. Also, finding out new flaws, and fixing them. 'Linux' could also be called a 'white hat' hacker, because his hacking in open source projects, is I pressume to the good of others.

2: A 'black hat' hacker. This is a computer criminal full stop. Nothing else to say really.

The media... Like to use the phrase "script kiddie" a lot. In my view, these people are normally kids (but not always) who like to cause damage. But, do not know what they are doing. They will use pre-built 'hacking tools' to cause damage.

I know, I am not the person who defines the word "hacker"... So why should anybody follow my view? But, I think this is the most correct view there is.

The other word... "cracker" isn't so different in a way. For example... A code breaker working for MIT - they are a "cracker". As it involves a lot of puzzles - they could also be called a "hacker".

Sorry to ramble... In conclusion... "hackers" and even "crackers" in general, are not bad. (except the few that do it for computer crime obviously).

Hackers and Crackers made the computer industry... They help it advance... In this technical world they are, in my opinion - the most respected of people.

Thank you for your time.

Originally posted by MetalHead

"computer hackers" can be split up into 2 things also:

Forgot "grey hats" just thought i'd mention it for the sake of arguement.

Don't confuse it even more, lol.

"Grey Hats" are people who do a little bit of both, I guess - for good, and for bad.