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Pictures from lunch - Contrail/Chemtrail/Clouds

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posted on Jan, 26 2012 @ 04:14 PM
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Originally posted by waynos

Originally posted by mileslong54

In the sense that there are patents for both chemtails and contrails, they both exist, but since you choose to believe what is patented is not used then, they both don't exist based on what you believe about patents


You are being obtuse. Just because the existence of a patent is not proof something exists, it is a bizarre leap to then conclude that it must be proof it does not. What kind of simplistic reasoning is at work here?


Like wise contrails have patents, so your killing your proof with patents prove nothing as contrail have patents, well like wise.
edit on 26-1-2012 by mileslong54 because: (no reason given)




posted on Jan, 26 2012 @ 04:18 PM
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Originally posted by mileslong54
This is correct , now what does water do in the air, evaporate or if dense enough falls to the ground. So why is there a white lines in the air for hours when most contrails (white lines in the sky) disappear shortly after leaving the plane. All the lines are disappearing today and not lingering, same temperature. If it looks like a contrail, it should disappear and not grow and linger for hours.


What does water, or water vapour do at minus 30 degrees?

If the RH is already so high that no more moisture can be absorbed back into the air, what is this frozen trail of ice crystals going to do once the plane has left it behind?

That is why trails linger for hours in the right conditions, you did realise that contrails are frozen water vapour, right?

ALL contrails are frozen water vapour. Tiny ice crystals. the RH is what determines how long they last.

edit on 26-1-2012 by waynos because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 26 2012 @ 04:25 PM
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Originally posted by mileslong54

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul
The chemical make up of a contrail is H2O as documented by the sources that you have accepted -


This is correct
, now what does water do in the air, evaporate or if dense enough falls to the ground.


Or it stays up there as clouds - you seem to have missed that bit.



So why is there a white lines in the air for hours when most contrails (white lines in the sky) disappear shortly after leaving the plane. All the lines are disappearing today and not lingering, same temperature. If it looks like a contrail, it should disappear and not grow and linger for hours.


Why should it disappear? Clouds can stay around for hours, so why not contrails that are the same composition as a type of cloud?


If it looks like a chicken, must be a chicken


And if it looks like a contrail then it must be a contrail - glad you have figured it out!!



posted on Jan, 26 2012 @ 04:26 PM
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Originally posted by luxordelphi

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul
reply to post by luxordelphi
 


So how come you can't actually proffer any verifiable evidence that chemtrails exist at all??

Or, if you have evidence, why do you not make it available, instead of all teh obviously bunk stuff that has been revealed so far (like persistence for example)?


The key word here, Gaul, would be observation. Your bunk 'science' is never going to trump that. "...know when to walk away..."


Did you catch the chemical droppings in a bucket? Have them analysed in a lab?

Or does "observation" simply mean you were stood outside Circus Circus and saw contrails?



posted on Jan, 26 2012 @ 04:28 PM
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Originally posted by mileslong54

Originally posted by waynos

Originally posted by mileslong54

In the sense that there are patents for both chemtails and contrails, they both exist, but since you choose to believe what is patented is not used then, they both don't exist based on what you believe about patents


You are being obtuse. Just because the existence of a patent is not proof something exists, it is a bizarre leap to then conclude that it must be proof it does not. What kind of simplistic reasoning is at work here?


Like wise contrails have patents, so your killing your proof with patents prove nothing as contrail have patents, well like wise.


I think you are agreeing with us that the existence of patents does not prove the existence of the patented device or process or whatever in actual use...but your wording is odd so I'm not sure.

However the existence of contrails is not proved by patents - it is proved by the actual existence of contrails, as studied worldwide for 70+ years, numerous scientific papers, etc.



posted on Jan, 26 2012 @ 04:29 PM
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reply to post by waynos
 



Under the very same weather and altitude conditions in which you have been seeing normal commercial traffic emissions produce whatever kind of contrail is normal for your locality, you will most likely now see something else entirely. It is almost always possible to directly observe that these unmarked planes flying in close formation are leaving a very different kind of trail. First of all, as stated, the trails being left are usually in odd checkerboard, grid, X s, stripes, or even circles. This is very distinctly abnormal compared to what you will see resulting from normal airline traffic. Secondly, only these military planes are leaving trails that do not dissipate, as the others do under the very same weather and altitude conditions. Instead, they very slowly spread out over the sky and join together, forming a distinct cloudy haze. This again is easily provable by simple observation. All you have to do is watch this happen over a period of a few hours at the most, and often within a much shorter time span. The standard explanation of ice crystals and contrail formations self-destructs here right before your eyes. Because under the conditions in which we have observed chemtrails, all the other air traffic in the vicinity at the time, at approximately the same altitudes, are leaving normal contrails. These normal contrails are definitely not spreading out and coalescing into a thick hazy "cloud" cover.


One of these things is not like the other - Sesame Street



edit on 26-1-2012 by mileslong54 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 26 2012 @ 04:34 PM
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Originally posted by mileslong54

Like wise contrails have patents, so your killing your proof with patents prove nothing as contrail have patents, well like wise.
edit on 26-1-2012 by mileslong54 because: (no reason given)


Except that contrail patents are not being offered up as proof of anything by anyone. You are disputing the scientific consensus, so show something that justifies it, unless you prefer to offer nothing but specious arguments, as you have so far.

your external source quote is unattributed, why is that? Why do you consider it proof of anything?
edit on 26-1-2012 by waynos because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 26 2012 @ 04:37 PM
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reply to post by mileslong54
 


Sesame street is about the level of that piece, wherever it comes from.

they make to effort to actually determine the actual altitude - it seems that "approximately the same" is good enough for them.

It makes no attempt to determine the actual conditions at any of the altitudes - whether they be approximate or exact.

It is just baseless assertion - it is worthless as actual evidence.



posted on Jan, 26 2012 @ 04:38 PM
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Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul

Originally posted by mileslong54

Originally posted by waynos

Originally posted by mileslong54

In the sense that there are patents for both chemtails and contrails, they both exist, but since you choose to believe what is patented is not used then, they both don't exist based on what you believe about patents


You are being obtuse. Just because the existence of a patent is not proof something exists, it is a bizarre leap to then conclude that it must be proof it does not. What kind of simplistic reasoning is at work here?


Like wise contrails have patents, so your killing your proof with patents prove nothing as contrail have patents, well like wise.


I think you are agreeing with us that the existence of patents does not prove the existence of the patented device or process or whatever in actual use...but your wording is odd so I'm not sure.

However the existence of contrails is not proved by patents - it is proved by the actual existence of contrails, as studied worldwide for 70+ years, numerous scientific papers, etc.



You really think they're just gonna come out and stay "hey we've spraying all kinds of crap on the American people for years, sorry there may be some nasty side effect."

Science says a plane can take down a building, but there's only 1 instance of it happening in America ever.
Science says there's no cure for HIV Aids but those with enough money ie..Magic Johnson, are as healthy as ever.

You can believe everything they tell you for all I care.

edit on 26-1-2012 by mileslong54 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 26 2012 @ 04:41 PM
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reply to post by mileslong54
 


And...er...so what is your point?

That you do not accept science based evidence for anything??



posted on Jan, 26 2012 @ 04:43 PM
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Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul
reply to post by mileslong54
 


And...er...so what is your point?

That you do not accept science based evidence for anything??


My point -
If 50 million people believe a foolish thing it is still a foolish thing
peace



posted on Jan, 26 2012 @ 04:45 PM
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reply to post by mileslong54
 


Yep - numbers of people believing something do not make it true or exist.

well spotted.

And that is why science relies upon a standard of proof and repeatability and not just belief.




edit on 26-1-2012 by Aloysius the Gaul because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 26 2012 @ 04:46 PM
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Originally posted by mileslong54


the trails being left are usually in odd checkerboard, grid, X s, stripes, or even circles. This is very distinctly abnormal compared to what you will see resulting from normal airline traffic.


Someone who writes that airliners don't leave grids, 'X's or circles is demonstrating only that they know nothing about commercial aviation at all and they are not in a position to be making judgements about it.


Secondly, only these military planes are leaving trails that do not dissipate, as the others do under the very same weather and altitude conditions.


And once again, the nonsense it completely transparent, you can even browse this very board for posts from me including photographic evidence that this claim is bollocks.



posted on Jan, 26 2012 @ 04:48 PM
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Originally posted by mileslong54


My point -
If 50 million people believe a foolish thing it is still a foolish thing
peace


Like chemtrails, you mean? Well done, at last.



posted on Jan, 26 2012 @ 04:48 PM
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Brian Holmes of www.holmestead.ca has investigated these eco-crimes for the past several years. Because of his efforts, many within Canada and on the net have become aware of the ongoing spraying operations. Like other serious investigators who have studied this phenomena, Brian's work has been maligned, and there are ongoing attempts to discredit him and his sources.

Some months ago, a Chemtrail insider that Brian nicknamed 'Deep Shield' came forward with specific and detailed information about this mysterious program, corresponding with him via e-mail. A transcript of the communications with Deep Shield and the Shield Project can be read online at: www.holmestead.ca... For those of us who have studied chemtrails carefully, the revealing dialog rang of the truth.

Since then we have been able to study, and verify a number of Deep Shield's primary claims. The anonymous insider gave Brian's readers some valuable clues to follow if they wished to investigate deeper into the history and hard science of chemtrails. A primary clue was to investigate the term 'geoengineering.'

One investigator took the clues provided by 'Deep Shield' and dug in. She eventually found an N.A.S. study on Geoengineering and the Mitigation of Global Warming. This study is still available online and is also available in hardcover. This massive document validates the insider information provided by Deep Shield, and has lead to an additional gold mine of evidence.

This massive research study is entitled: Policy Implications of Greenhouse Warming: Mitigation, Adaptation, and the Science Base - Panel on Policy Implications of Greenhouse Warming, sponsored by the National Academy of Sciences, National Academy of Engineering, and the Institute of Medicine. The results were presented in 1992 and published in book form in 2000 by the National Academy Press. This 994 page study is the textbook on greenhouse gasses, global warming, policy decisions and mitigation's (corrective measures). Included within is the hard science many chemtrails researchers have been searching for: the scientists, agencies, institutions and corporations involved, cost factors, chemical formula, mathematical modeling, delivery methods, policies, recruiting of foreign governments, acquisition of materials, and the manufacturing of aerosol compounds, ect.


www.lightwatcher.com...

Aluminum Oxide and Barium sprayed into the troposphere by commercial and private planes.....yea just a contrail


"Geoengineering--intentional, human-directed manipulation of the Earth's climatic systems--may be such an alternative. This part proposes that, unlike a regulatory "Marshall Plan" of costly emissions reductions, technology subsidies, and other mitigation measures, a non-regulatory "Manhattan Project" geared toward developing feasible geoengineering remedies for climate change can meaningfully close the gaps in global warming and avert many of its most dire consequences."



"In some ways, this phase has already begun, as geoengineering has moved from the pages of science fiction to respectable scientific and policy journals. [FN127] One of the most encouraging proposals today focuses on the creation of vast carbon sinks by artificially stimulating phytoplankton growth with iron "fertilizer" in parts of the Earth's oceans. [FN128] Another proposal suggests creating miniature, *106 artificial "Mount Pinatubos" by allowing airplanes to release dust particles into the upper atmosphere, simulating the greenhouse- arresting eruption of Mount Pinatubo in 1991. [FN129]" pp. 105-106, Geoengineering: A Climate Change Manhattan Project."





The chart must just be for S***'s and giggles too.
edit on 26-1-2012 by mileslong54 because: (no reason given)

edit on 26-1-2012 by mileslong54 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 26 2012 @ 05:00 PM
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Originally posted by mileslong54
Some months ago, a Chemtrail insider that Brian nicknamed 'Deep Shield' came forward with specific and detailed information about this mysterious program, corresponding with him via e-mail. A transcript of the communications with Deep Shield and the Shield Project can be read online at: www.holmestead.ca...


That link doesn't work - try this one - www.holmestead.ca... (which is the same but lacks the full stop at the end!)


For those of us who have studied chemtrails carefully, the revealing dialog rang of the truth.


Not for all of us who have studied chemtrails at all - for me it smacks of absolute ubbish.

It starts of with "polymer threads imbedded (sic) with biological material" - just another chemtrail idea that has never been shown to exist.

And it goes straight downhill from there.



www.lightwatcher.com...

Aluminum Oxide and Barium sprayed into the troposphere by commercial and private planes.....yea just a contrail


Except it doesn't actually say that -


In Policy Implications of Greenhouse Warming: Mitigation, Adaptation, and the Science Bases conclusion, the N.A.S. found that the most effective global warming mitigation turned out to be the spraying of reflective aerosol compounds into the atmosphere utilizing commercial, military and private aircraft. This preferred mitigation method is designed to create a global atmospheric shield which would increase the planet's albedo (reflectivity) using aerosol compounds of aluminum and barium oxides, and to introduce ozone generating chemicals into the atmosphere.



So you do not even understand what your own sources say!!

Now this is indeed evidence that someone was considering doing this. But this is not news - lots of people have considered spraying all sorts of things into the atmosphere to combat global warming.

What is the evidence that it is actually happening?
edit on 26-1-2012 by Aloysius the Gaul because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 26 2012 @ 05:13 PM
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Yea let's do tons of scientific work to determine the amount to to be sprayed at certain altitudes, figure out the chemical mixtures to spray and never use it. Nothing fishy here, just a lot of research and tax payer money spent and then shelved to be never used again.

I'm betting that's exactly what they want you to think - I think it's working



posted on Jan, 26 2012 @ 05:22 PM
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reply to post by mileslong54
 


As stated, that is EXACTLY what is being done. There is a lot still to learn about out atmosphere, and there is no clear need (as yet) to actually implement any such severe strategies.

These are studied as contingencies, if the situation (global warming, environmental catastrophes, etc) becomes so dire that we have to do something, or else die.

Still, if you'd bother to read your OWN sources (or just look carefully at the chart you posted) you see many, many, many other concepts being investigated as potential methods of "runaway climate" mitigation.


Finally......it is astounding how the science is being ignored by so many on this topic of contrails. They are not that difficult to grasp, for normal rational adults (and children).

In addition, the real nail in the coffin of this absurd "chemtrail" hoax and myth is: NO EVIDENCE!!

NO photos, NO reports by anyone involved, NO indication of facilities where any "chemicals" are being loaded onto airplanes, NO facilities where these "chemicals" are produced, NO infrastructure showing the delivery methods and networks.....oh, and NO PHOTOS!! Most importantly.....NO photos of any airplane apparatus that is being used, or is installed on the airplanes, to "spray".

In fact, every, every example of a so-called "chemtrail" looks exactly, exactly, exactly like a normal contrail, that is formed directly aft and in trail behind the engines of the jets.

Every time.

*Where* is the evidence??



posted on Jan, 26 2012 @ 05:27 PM
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Originally posted by mileslong54
Yea let's do tons of scientific work to determine the amount to to be sprayed at certain altitudes, figure out the chemical mixtures to spray and never use it. Nothing fishy here, just a lot of research and tax payer money spent and then shelved to be never used again.


How do you know it will never be used??



posted on Jan, 26 2012 @ 05:35 PM
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reply to post by mileslong54
 


Well, it does happen.

Look at the plans the NATO had for stopping a Soviet advance into western Europe. Very intricate, very detailed, lots of the top minds focused on every possible variant, and also never used. But the effort was worth it because you can't plan for something after its happened. Sounds like a very similar situation to me, so no, it doesn't follow that because the plans exist they MUST be being carried out. It is still something that would need to be shown to be happening.
edit on 26-1-2012 by waynos because: (no reason given)




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