US marine pleads guilty over Haditha killings

Originally posted by Cosmic4life
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

So what is your opinion of these guys getting 3 months for murdering 24 people ?

Do you not consider it a war crime ?

Setting aside my service to this country I have to go with my convictions.

Yes

They should be punished if there were illegal killings in a war-zone. But I can't say for sure because I was not there [Nor were you] and know the circumstances. I saw a movie recently on it. I watched and took it with a grain of salt considering who produced it.

I nor anybody here can say for certain. Nobody here was there.

We [NONE of us, that's you included] know for sure what transpired and what the mitigating circumstances were.

Fair enough?

Those soldiers should be lined up and shot...

Cosmic..

PEACE

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by buddhasystem
What i don't get is this:

Well apparently there is a lot you "Don't Get"

Slayer, I'm a scientist and I know better than most people that I don't get a lot of things -- the rest just don't pay enough attention to what they don't get. So you are right.

Help me out here, Slayer -- 24 people died, the people who in all likelihood committed the murder walked.

Yet will speak as if you actually know something about the contents of this thread.

Well I've followed the Haditha killings at one point. What exactly DON'T I know?

My angle at the Nazi crimes only comes into the scope of this discussion because I frankly don't see much of a difference between what Wueterich and his troop did in Iraq, and what some Fritz Wuetrich did in WWII to some poor East European souls.

Enlighten me.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Oh please do enlighten me..

I would love to hear what possible mitigating circumstances there are for murdering 24 UN-ARMED people.

Sheesh..

I think your unswerving loyalty is clouding your judgement.

Cosmic..

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Yet will speak as if you actually know something about the contents of this thread.

Well I've followed the Haditha killings at one point. What exactly DON'T I know?

Enlighten me.

Are you purposely trying to be funny?

You quoted me there pointing out the fact that it was YOU who brought up the NAZIs when up till that point in the thread nobody else had.

reply to post by buddhasystem

 

Those of you who are saying that soldiers are under a lot of pressure -- fine, they are, but let's just shut up then about the Nazis who did terrible things because you know

Originally posted by SLAYER69
You quoted me there pointing out the fact that it was YOU who brought up the NAZIs when up till that point in the thread nobody else had.

And...

reply to post by Cosmic4life


It was a fair answer.

Don't like it?

Not much I can do about that.

PEACE

reply to post by buddhasystem


You are correct to a certain degree and there is not much difference between this atrocity and the atrocities committed by Nazi Germany. The act of an atrocity is an atrocity regardless of uniform or country. Where the difference arises is that if this was an act by Nazi Germany there would have been no trial or public explanation whatsoever on the part of Nazi Germany. They would have liquidated the entire town, medals would have been handed out, guys would have pat each other on the back sipping Schnapps, and the public would have never heard a thing about it.

It took their annihilation, and the Nuremberg trials to bring forth some of their atrocities and to hand out punishment to those responsible. It is common knowledge that before the end of the war the SS was in the process of covering up their crimes. The difference is that this trial as shameful as it may be was conducted in a US military court, and as such; the US was willing to accept responsibility for this atrocity and act of misconduct. I cannot recall one instance of Nazi Germany holding a trial for what their soldiers did. Not one. There lies the difference.

reply to post by SLAYER69


In defense of myself and Buddha..

The Nazi's are brought up because the Nuremberg trials set the precedent for military conduct.

There are no mitigating circumstances for the murder of 24 un-armed civilians..period !

Your an ex-Marine for Christ's sake..you know the rules of engagement.

Cosmic..

reply to post by Jakes51


Getting 3 months for murdering 24 people seems like a pat on the back to me.

Cosmic..

Originally posted by Jakes51
reply to post by buddhasystem

 

You are correct to a certain degree and there is not much difference between this atrocity and the atrocities committed by Nazi Germany. The act of an atrocity is an atrocity regardless of uniform or country. Where the difference arises is that if this was an act by Nazi Germany there would have been no trial or public explanation whatsoever on the part of Nazi Germany.

You know, at this point I don't know what is better. Nazi won't explain anything, and that's almost better on the consciousness than having some serious evidence pointing to the culprits and seeing them walk.

the US was willing to accept responsibility for this atrocity and act of misconduct.

I'm sorry but you must be hallucinating at this point. Everybody walked. What responsibility are you talking about???

reply to post by Cosmic4life


His sentence is what it is. That is in the hands of the judge, jury, and prosecution. What you missed in my last post was not that I was saying anything about his sentence being pat on the back, but only highlighting why this situation is different than Nazi Germany. I did say as shameful as this trial may be . . .

Still, there was a trial and what took place will remain in the public record. The US initiated the inquiry and held the trial on their own accord. It did not take an independent trial like Nuremberg to get the US to come clean. The Nazi's never came forward about their crimes willingly. Not once! It took defeat and a international military tribunal.

reply to post by Jakes51


Are you trying to give me some moral equivalence BS here.

The Nazi's were convicted in an International court, not by themselves in their own court.

This case and all cases of atrocity should be held in International courts.

Do you think these guys would've got 3 months prison if they had been convicted in an international court ?

Cosmic..

Atrocitys are just that,Atrocitys.

I have always wondered why some seem to get off lightly,and some get harsh sentences.

When the World and UN peacekeepers allowed 800000 murders to happen in Rwanda,I wondered WHY none were,brought to justice.

None of them actively participated,but they didnt stop it from happening either.

That is an Atrocity,in itself.

Accountability will always be at the heart of the situation. NO ONE here was there to witness the atrocity.

Military Justice,and Civilian Justice are both flawed at times.

Personally, I beleived OJ Simpson killed his wife. I also believed Casey Anthony murdered her child.

The Jurys decided otherwise.Regardless of 1 killing or 10000000 killings,Justice doesnt always favor the victims. MHO

Originally posted by Cosmic4life
Do you think these guys would've got 3 months prison if they had been convicted in an international court ?

Good point. The US refused to stick with the International Tribunal, which the height of hypocrisy. After all, various Serbs, Croats and most everybody else was served justice there -- except the Americans. That just pains me. Either you do it for everybody or not at all.

So my theory is that if these soldiers were tried in the Hague, they would have gotten 10+ years hard time.

Originally posted by Cosmic4life
reply to post by Jakes51

 

Are you trying to give me some moral equivalence BS here.

The Nazi's were convicted in an International court, not by themselves in their own court.

This case and all cases of atrocity should be held in International courts.

Do you think these guys would've got 3 months prison if they had been convicted in an international court ?

Cosmic..

You're wrong.

Nazis were ALSO acquitted.........

They were also retried.

Chancellor of Germany in 1932 and Vice-Chancellor under Hitler in 1933–1934. Ambassador to Austria 1934–38 and ambassador to Turkey 1939–1944. Although acquitted at Nuremberg, von Papen was reclassified as a war criminal in 1947 by a German de-Nazification court, and sentenced to eight years' hard labour. He was acquitted following appeal after serving two years.

LINK

Chancellor of Nazi Germany given 2 years...........

How many died under the Nazi regime?

Originally posted by sonnny1
Personally, I beleived OJ Simpson killed his wife.

I was trying to avoid this, but since you brought it up... I did think about the similarity. Bloody glove, long shower, bloody socks and the missing knife that he did buy some time prior, and he was let go.

Same here -- bodies riddled with bullets... And that didn't matter.

One must understand that every decision They made in their life lead up to tge killings. One could argue how? Simply .. he chose to join the military ... no mater what job you have in the military .. you feed the machine .. but at some point i have to humble my self when i read stuff like this, cause i know how military .. life is., in his brain he was just doing his job abd seeking revenge, he will relies later what he has done, if he does not know now .. chalk another one up for our warpth of destruction .... whoa! !

reply to post by buddhasystem


With all due respect, but I think you are missing the point? Yes, most of the alleged conspirators walked. Take that up with the judge, jury, and the prosecution. Let me reiterate, when talking about atrocities, trials, and the Nazis? The Nazi's never willfully came forward and held any kind of trial for incidents like this. That is fact!

However, the US initiated the inquiry when the allegations were known, and it was put to trial. That to me is not patting anyone on the back. Was the atrocity not brought to light in a military court, and was the accused mentioned in the OP not punished? Whatever happened at trial, and including the verdict is the result of the judge, jury, and prosecution. As unpopular as the verdict is? The US legal system is supposed to be impartial, and that goes for a general court martial.

Military Justice: Courts-Martial, An Overview

What happens at trial happens at trial. The point is, the US government allowed for the trial to take place. The Nazi's never did such things on their own.

reply to post by Swills


may those that died and to all of those that have died in war.. Rest in peace.

kx

Originally posted by ShamilAbdullah
cause i know how military .. life is.

Yes, Chechnya is a hard place.