The expansion of space. Supernovas and black holes. THE OTHER SIDE OF SPACE, page 1

The expansion of space. Supernovas and black holes. THE OTHER SIDE OF SPACE, page

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Topic started on 24-1-2012 @ 09:48 AM by smithjustinb

If space is expanding and gravity creates a depression in "the fabric of space" then wouldn't an object appear to become more dense?

Imagine a trampoline is space and you place a 50 pound ball in the center of the trampoline. The ball causes a depression in the fabric of the trampoline so that any other ball place along the outer edge of the trampoline will begin move into the center. If the outer ball is pushed in the right direction, it will spiral around the 50 pound ball. Now if the 50 pound ball were actually a star and instead of a 2d trampoline representation of space, it was actually in 3d space, then that 50 pound ball could move ever-onward through space and the revolving outer ball would never catch up. This would keep the revolutions at the same distance.

Now imagine what happens when space expands. The fabric becomes looser and therefore the influence of the ball on spacetime would cause a greater depression in the fabric and thus have a seemingly greater gravitational effect. Matter would accelerate as the depression became greater and the fabric became looser.

This theory of the expansion of space seems to indicate to me that there are breaking points. For stars, if space expands too much then the gravity pulling hydrogen atoms in together is able to successfully pull the hydrogen atoms together BUT there is perhaps a threshhold where space becomes so stretched that IT can no longer hold the hydrogen atoms together. Then what happens is there appears to be a massive explosion (supernova) when, in reality, space became so stretched that it ripped, bounced back into formation and slung matter everywhere.

With this, you have the universe seeming to expand at an accelerating rate, you have a solution to why there are black holes and you have a stunning visualization of the whole process in action. The answer is, "space expands when mass is present."

edit on 24-1-2012 by smithjustinb because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 24-1-2012 @ 09:53 AM by smithjustinb

Space is essentially disintegrating and matter is falling through black holes little by little. Energy/mass can never be created or destroyed though, so when it falls through these holes, the question is, "where does it go?"

Is there spacetime on the other side or something else? What if on the other side of a black hole there were completely different laws of physics altogether?

reply posted on 24-1-2012 @ 09:56 AM by minor007

reply to post by smithjustinb

A slight flaw in your logic. the depression as you call it does not come first. It is the mass of the object that causes the depression. But what you wrote is basically einsteins theory

reply posted on 24-1-2012 @ 09:57 AM by smithjustinb

Originally posted by minor007
reply to post by smithjustinb

A slight flaw in your logic. the depression as you call it does not come first. It is the mass of the object that causes the depression. But what you wrote is basically einsteins theory

I thought that was what I was saying. The presence of mass causes a depression in spacetime.

reply posted on 24-1-2012 @ 10:01 AM by Slavich

I think the biggest clue as to what goes on in a black hole is Heisenberg uncertainty principle. What happens when a photon stops moving?

reply posted on 24-1-2012 @ 10:14 AM by phishyblankwaters

Mass, according to Einstein, creates gravity, and in sufficient amounts, distorts space time. Think of a bowling ball on a mattress, how it deforms space time around it. No try to imagine that in 3 dimensions instead of two, it's tough, but it works.

That said, one of the compelling theories right now is that, similar to the fact that "time" is entirely relative and doesn't really exist, mass doesn't actually exist. It's merely the result of friction from the higgs field (what they are trying to discover at the LHC) against the particles moving through it.

Anyways...

The universe is expanding, and according to recent discoveries, it's accelerating. But people often get confused about this....

Space itself, the "empty space" between galaxies is what is expanding, the galaxies and such are not expanding, they are merely moving apart.

Think of a deflated balloon with two planets drawn on it. As you expand the balloon by filling it, the space between the planets grows while the planets themselves stay the same size (yes, on the balloon they stretch a little, just ignore that.)

So in essence, your theory is flawed because the particles within the universe are not expanding, the distance between stars in our galaxy is not changing, merely the distance between us and other galaxies is expanding.

So, basically, this line is backwards:

"space expands when mass is present."

Space expands when mass is absent, the areas with mass (galaxies) are not expanding, they are moving away.

Black holes don't need any stretching of laws to exist, it's quite simple. The nuclear reaction within a star is a limited deal, it can only last so long as it's in the process of fusing particles together to make newer ones. Once that star has burned off enough fuel, and is of sufficient mass, gravity becomes stronger than the nuclear force holding the reaction together, creating a mass at the center of the star that becomes increasingly heavy and small as it's compacting in on itself.

What lies at the center? Who knows, best theories are a tiny singularity where the laws of physics break down.

OR

A massive ball at the center of all matter sucked into it, packed as tightly as the particles can possibly be, leaving an actual mass and object that because of it's mass, light can not even escape.

reply posted on 24-1-2012 @ 10:22 AM by tkwasny

Until someone can prove there is an existence that can place a binding limit on space, not just speculative math or conjecture, Why is there this assumption that space in NOT an infinite existence. Just because our math has a huge heartache processing infinite, does that mean infinite anything cannot exist? Math is not always the means to acheive an answer.

With that said, if space is already an infinite existence, it is only our extending our awareness into this infinite existence that is expanding, not the infinite existence of space itself.

reply posted on 24-1-2012 @ 10:27 AM by truthinfact

Originally posted by smithjustinb
Space is essentially disintegrating and matter is falling through black holes little by little. Energy/mass can never be created or destroyed though, so when it falls through these holes, the question is, "where does it go?"

Is there spacetime on the other side or something else? What if on the other side of a black hole there were completely different laws of physics altogether?

The other side... Would be a universe where atoms can occupy the same place, lacking a "god particle" that causes vibrations.. Essetiannly all matter slipping into and out of each other, no physical boundaries. So that means no life.. I like this universe quite much compared to that!

reply posted on 24-1-2012 @ 10:39 AM by Mimir

reply to post by smithjustinb & minor007

Large black holes also is creaters!

Some things does escape black holes, that is positive mass particles which is emitted as Hawking Radiation. Tiny black holes emmit more matter than it gets and will evaporate in a fraction of a second (in theory).

In 1974, British physicist Stephen Hawking worked out the exact theoretical model for how a black hole could emit black body radiation.

In a simplified version of the explanation, Hawking predicted that energy fluctuations from the vacuum causes the generation of particle-antiparticle pairs near the event horizon of the black hole. One of the particles falls into the black hole while the other escapes, before they have an opportunity to annihilate each other. The net result is that, to someone viewing the black hole, it would appear that a particle had been emitted.

Smaller primordial black holes can actually emit more energy than they absorb, which results in them losing net mass. Larger black holes, such as those that are one solar mass, absorb more cosmic radiation than they emit through Hawking radiation. What is Hawking Radiation

This video explains Hawking Radiation on a level most people can understand.

YouTube Link

It is speculated that dark matter is the reason for the increase of our universes expansion. That is something I dont know enough about to start explaining.

I'll add another simple possibility of the universes expansion could be that it's controled by the vacuum outside our universe.

edit on 24-1-2012 by Mimir because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 24-1-2012 @ 10:47 AM by Corrupted Data

Originally posted by smithjustinb
Space is essentially disintegrating and matter is falling through black holes little by little. Energy/mass can never be created or destroyed though, so when it falls through these holes, the question is, "where does it go?"

Is there spacetime on the other side or something else? What if on the other side of a black hole there were completely different laws of physics altogether?

Into another Dimension perhaps? or a parrallell universe?
what I can't quite understand is why we havent found the center of the universe yet?
surely if the speed of light is the fastest anything can travel we should be able to look back into the past and see when and where the big bang took place?
obviously if you have to objects travelling away from each other at the speed of light then you wouldnt be able to see it.
But we SHOULD be able to see the start of time right? or am i wrong? its rather weird..
Im not sure if the Big bang theory is actually correct is where im heading.

reply posted on 24-1-2012 @ 10:50 AM by smithjustinb

So space only needs to become stretched enough to where it can break and a doorway can be opened to 'the other side'.

But what exactly is on the other side? I would like to heavily speculate on this.

Imagine that there is no space on the other side. So when matter falls into a black hole, it instantly is added to a mass of supercondensed matter that has collected from ages of matter falling in to black holes. This hunk of supercondensed matter is in a constant state of hyper fusion. Except unlike normal fusion, there is no medium for the energy to travel, so it gets sucked back in on itself and is stored. What you have here is what you might call Omega matter. It is the heaviest element possible and it internalizes its energy. Its very strange.

OR

The matter is converted to energy as it falls through the black hole and there is a mass of supercondensed pure energy on the other side. This would make more sense to me. Then eventually, the energy gains the mass of hydrogen and space is created in a sort of inverse of the fusion process. The creation of hydrogen immediately causes space to expand and allow the energy a medium to expand. All of a sudden particles are bursting forth at an unimaginable rate.

I know some of this sounds flawed and probably is, but hopefully some of you can take what makes sense and build on it and we could work out a plausible theory here.

reply posted on 24-1-2012 @ 10:58 AM by Mimir

reply to post by Corrupted Data

I might be cryptic now but light travels faster than light

You do not want to travel the direction of the light but on the curbe of the light.....Light moves like a sinuswave in mathematics, instead of moving in lights direction follow the slope....Watch this video from ufo-tv start at 1h41m00s to get a explanation on paper, it's a brilliant idea.

If this becomes a possebility we might be able to travel without any speedlimit!
This might very well be our ticket out of the solar system....i doubt wormholes will work, even thou it might be theoretical posible.

YouTube Link

Even if this doesn't become a possibility, the clip still shows you why light travels faster than light (because lightwaves is a wavefunction).

edit on 24-1-2012 by Mimir because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 25-1-2012 @ 02:04 AM by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by smithjustinb
This theory of the expansion of space seems to indicate to me that there are breaking points.

The expansion doesn't appear to occur locally so no this is not what the theory indicates. For example, the expansion of our solar system is immeasurable. It may not be expanding at all. But the space BETWEEN galaxies appears to be expanding.

www.astronomycafe.net...

Wouldn't the expansion of space show up inside the solar system in the predicted positions of the planets?

No, and for a variety of reasons. The most significant reason is that the gravitational field of the Sun and the Milky Way are stronger than the local gravitational field of the universe. This means that the dynamics of spacetime in our solar system and Milky Way are dominated by the curvature produced by these local masses. As an example, if the cosmological expansion could be detected in our solar system, its 60 kilometers/sec/megaparsecs would translate into a space dilation rate of 6 centimeters per second per parsec, or for a scale inside our solar system, 0.0002 centimeters/sec per billion kilometers. In 100 years this stretching would amount to 6.2 kilometers at the solar system scale, and 186,000 kilometers at the interstellar scale. Neither of these are measurable, nor is there any physical reason from general relativity why they should even be present given the strength of the local sources of gravity which completely overpower the effect.

With this, you have the universe seeming to expand at an accelerating rate, you have a solution to why there are black holes and you have a stunning visualization of the whole process in action. The answer is, "space expands when mass is present."

No, we don't have an answer, that's why we call it "dark energy", the dark means we don't know. It may have nothing to do with mass, and in fact mass may actually have the opposite effect, because gravity from mass acts to slow the expansion. Some ideas suggest it's vacuum energy rather than mass which cause the accelerating expansion, but we really don't know much about "dark energy".

reply posted on 25-1-2012 @ 08:42 AM by Corrupted Data

Originally posted by Mimir
reply to post by Corrupted Data

I might be cryptic now but light travels faster than light

You do not want to travel the direction of the light but on the curbe of the light.....Light moves like a sinuswave in mathematics, instead of moving in lights direction follow the slope....Watch this video from ufo-tv start at 1h41m00s to get a explanation on paper, it's a brilliant idea.

If this becomes a possebility we might be able to travel without any speedlimit!
This might very well be our ticket out of the solar system....i doubt wormholes will work, even thou it might be theoretical posible.

YouTube Link

Even if this doesn't become a possibility, the clip still shows you why light travels faster than light (because lightwaves is a wavefunction).

edit on 24-1-2012 by Mimir because: (no reason given)